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#7176329 - 12/12/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: FishinHank]  
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teal Offline
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Originally Posted by FishinHank
Being able to hit targets and kill game at a 1000 yards are two totally different situations.


And he won't be able to kill game at 1000 until he can hit at 1000.

You don't learn to drive in a F-1 car, you work up to it.


Andrew

AIH 300 L
 
#7176776 - 12/12/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: teal]  
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LongRanger280 Offline
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I started with an 06 a long time ago. Then I just had to have a 7 mag. I traded it for a 280 and have never looked back. I love shooting my 308 too. I must have spent a small fortune on loading cartridges and practicing before I ever took what I consider to be a long poke at a living deer. That shot was only 415 yards, but conditions were perfect and I was thrilled when that 280 dropped her in her tracks. Matriarchal doe or not, she was legal and she still ranks with my others as a trophy. My best buck is 168 5/8 with an inside spread of 24 5/8, but that doe at that range was as big of a thrill for me. She ate awful good too.

I don't consider myself to be a long range hunter, but I like feeling confident when I get a chance at any legal deer over 300 yards away.

I think your friend would be better served with a 308 to begin with, but as has been said here, he will get what he has set his mind on. Magnums, for me, are over my recoil threshold for practicing much, even if I never notice recoil when shooting game. It's the practice that builds the skills and confidence. My 2 bits worth.

#7176901 - 12/12/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: LongRanger280]  
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SamOlson Offline
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300WSM all the way....



If starting from stratch I would just get a couple 308's, 400-500 yards is as far as I wanna shoot right now anyway.....grin


These are the Good Ol' Days
#7177101 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: rcamuglia]  
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rosco1 Offline
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Originally Posted by rcamuglia
I think the question has been answered and all here have given great input.

Long range hunting is in "vogue" these days having been popularized by tv shows and equipment manufacturers pioneering a new market to find a new venue to increase sales. It's great and the American way, but it also has created some problems as have been addressed in the thread.

Long range shooting/hunting isn't "rocket science". Any intelligent person can learn to do it pretty quickly either by himself or with instruction, but the cumulative learning of handloading long and range shooting experience takes time.

My advice would be for your friend to get a .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. The light recoil will help him develop good shooting technique and habits. I also recommend a ton of long range TARGET shooting well before he attempts big game at long range. Varmints are great too.



6.5 creedmore for sure..The factory loaded 140 amax is excellent.

#7177472 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: MontanaMarine]  
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oldslowdog Offline
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Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
If someone's gotta ask, they probably need a 308Win.


That's classic right there!

Well put, Shane.

#7177638 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: oldslowdog]  
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cal74 Online content
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Cory,

Maybe sometime I can meet up with you guys and he can shoot my 7mm mag and a .338 win mag. If it wasn't such a pain to transport everything, I've got a couple 7mm-08s, .308(s) and also just aquired a heavy barrel .308 not that long ago that's going to be my learning tool for some long(er) range rock busting.
Really giving some serious thought to ordering an A3 for the HB .308, need to find some glass for it though as well.

I'll be heading for the Cities tomorrow afternoon (un-planned trip as I've got a meeting Monday AM in St. Paul) Girl friend has the rest of the weekend filled though (oh joy... shopping.. and visiting with her friends *$#^$)




As it's been pointed out, often when people get their mind made up on something, that's the only thing that will satisfy them. But I'd also recommend a .308 for the cost of shooting alone, 6.5 creedmoors are pretty reasonable factory rounds as well.
Could keep an eye on Dicks Sporting goods and see if they have any more deals on a Remington Varmint .308 around X-Mas. If he doesn't like it, he could flip it for little to no loss.


Life is just one damned thing after another
#7178952 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: cal74]  
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Well, I suppose I should speak up. I'm Cory's buddy. I'd just like to clear up the picture that has been painted for me, lol. First, I have no intention of shooting at an animal beyond a distance I'm capable of making a precise, clean shot 100% of the time. To be honest, that's probably about 300 yards for me right now. I am newer to big game hunting, no question about it. I have been shooting recreationally for most of the last 15 years though. I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means, however being "new" to rifle shooting is not accurate.
Now to my caliber choice. I know that the 300WM is probably not ideal for many of you, maybe not me. What I want, is a rifle similar to my -06, but slightly more capable of long range target shooting as I work my skills up to higher levels. I'd like to have a "happy medium" sort of speak, as I know you can't have a great target rifle (heavy barrel, etc) that's also an ideal hunting rifle. My brother lives in Colorado, so big game is in the near future without doubt. I also have a friend that can get me second line ammo in 300wm for about $6/box due to cosmetic flaws (scuffed or nicked case etc). My -06 is a very nice looking French walnut kimber, I'd like a secondary deer gun of similar caliber with a synthetic stock to use on rainy days, rocky, muddy terrain, and so on. I've done a bit of research, and I don't think a 300 would be a BAD choice. Are there better choices? Sure, you guys have named a few, and I agree, those are great recommendations. I just like the idea of having a gun similar to my -06, but maybe have a little more potential for when I grow into it. Not to mention the $6/box ammo!
Again, not claiming to be any kind of expert, and I do appreciate everyone's input! Just telling my side of the situation.

#7179018 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Joeyc250]  
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bcraig Offline
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The 30-06 that you currently own is more than capable of 300 yard or 400 yard or 500 yard or 600 yard game shooting with the correct ammo and scope and shooter skill.
If Carlos Hathcock was still alive I think he might tell you what a good 30-06 is capable of !
Speaking of the "second line ammo "due to cosmetic flaws " you might find it is second line in accuracy as well !
Bottom line is get what you want to get.
No one is downing on ya just trying to help you.
If you dont think the recoil of the 300 Mag is going to bother you by all means knock yourself out.It does sound and look real good on paper but if I was a betting man I would bet your oppinion of the 300 Mag is going to change bout the time you squeeze the trigger.
But what the heck get it and if you dont like it then sell it .
Regards and good luck
Craig


Faster horses,Younger women,Older Whiskey,More money
#7179086 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: bcraig]  
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Jordan Smith Online content
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I'd be choosing between the .260 and 7RM.

Long range shooting and cheap/second line ammo go together about as well as cats and dogs. LR ammo needs to demonstrate the utmost accuracy, and is often the opposite of cheap. The sooner you get into handloading your own ammo, the sooner you'll thank me grin


"Others are happy to hit the rock, or maybe the dark spot on the rock. I wanna head shoot the mite clinging to the pubes on the left nut of the fly that's sitting on the black spot on the rock."
#7179098 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: bcraig]  
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Joeyc250 Offline
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I've put some rounds through a 300 before, they have some kick, but so does my lightweight kimber 30-06, actually very close in felt recoil between the 300 I've shot, and my -06. The second rate ammo is no doubt not ideal "match" ammo, but for 1/4 price, the trigger time is beneficial. I use premium barnes ttsx bullets for hunting, the seconds are just for cheap plinking. My 06 is definitely a capable round, but my light tapered barrel isn't ideal for target shooting, heats up much too quick. If it had a bit heavier barrel, I'd consider sticking to it.

Last edited by Joeyc250; 12/13/12.
#7179364 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Joeyc250]  
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dogcatcher223 Offline
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I'd get something in a 6.5.


From a place you will not see, comes a sound you will not hear.
#7179914 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: dogcatcher223]  
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Joeyc250 Offline
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Ok, educate me a little on the various 6.5's. can't say I have any experience shooting any of them. I just don't know anyone that owns one. I'm always open to learning something new.

#7179963 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Joeyc250]  
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eh76 Offline
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North of Liberalism in Wyoming
260 Rem, 6.5 Creedmore, 6.5x47 Lapua all medium light recoiling cartridges with good ballistic properties.


Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
#7180084 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Joeyc250]  
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bsa1917hunter Offline
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Originally Posted by Joeyc250
Well, I suppose I should speak up. I'm Cory's buddy. I'd just like to clear up the picture that has been painted for me, lol. First, I have no intention of shooting at an animal beyond a distance I'm capable of making a precise, clean shot 100% of the time. To be honest, that's probably about 300 yards for me right now. I am newer to big game hunting, no question about it. I have been shooting recreationally for most of the last 15 years though. I'm not claiming to be an expert by any means, however being "new" to rifle shooting is not accurate.
Now to my caliber choice. I know that the 300WM is probably not ideal for many of you, maybe not me. What I want, is a rifle similar to my -06, but slightly more capable of long range target shooting as I work my skills up to higher levels. I'd like to have a "happy medium" sort of speak, as I know you can't have a great target rifle (heavy barrel, etc) that's also an ideal hunting rifle. My brother lives in Colorado, so big game is in the near future without doubt. I also have a friend that can get me second line ammo in 300wm for about $6/box due to cosmetic flaws (scuffed or nicked case etc). My -06 is a very nice looking French walnut kimber, I'd like a secondary deer gun of similar caliber with a synthetic stock to use on rainy days, rocky, muddy terrain, and so on. I've done a bit of research, and I don't think a 300 would be a BAD choice. Are there better choices? Sure, you guys have named a few, and I agree, those are great recommendations. I just like the idea of having a gun similar to my -06, but maybe have a little more potential for when I grow into it. Not to mention the $6/box ammo!
Again, not claiming to be any kind of expert, and I do appreciate everyone's input! Just telling my side of the situation.


We appreciate your honest input. Sounds like you are set on the 300 win mag. However, I'd be careful about the "$6.00/box" of ammo, as your rifle may not even like it and it would then be useless to you. If you truly want to shoot "long range" you need to get into handloading and find out what your rifle likes (whether that be your new 300 win mag or your ol 30-06).....There's absolutely nothing wrong with your choice. I've had a 300 win mag for a long time and they are great and will give you an edge over the 30-06 ballistically but it will punish you in the recoil department. If I were to pick a rifle for dedicated long range practice I'd probaly be leaning more towards the 7mm rem mag. This would be your "happy medium sort of speak" rifle. That's just me, but that's how I'd do it if I were in your shoes....


Originally Posted by raybass
I try to stick with the basics, they do so well. Nothing fancy mind you, just plain jane will get it done with style.


BSA
#7180131 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: bsa1917hunter]  
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I appreciate the feedback. The $6/box ammo, again, is just for practice, trigger time, recoil management, etc. I can get pretty much any of the premium bullets federal offers (partitions, accubond, triple shock, etc in 165gr, 180, etc) for the 300, I have also been getting them for my -06. I don't trust them to have hand load consistency, but I was actually shooting several 5 shot groups at roughly moa accuracy at 100yds with the $5 nosler partitions, 100yds was about as far as we could shoot on that property though. I will get into hand loading at some point, just not in my budget or time capacity at this point (new baby girl due any day now, and work 50-65hr weeks consistently). As far as recoil, I'd consider a muzzle brake, at least for the range.
I don't want to seem "dead set" on the 300, like my pal, Cory, makes it seem. I'm open to new ideas if they seem to fit the bill for my particular situation. That's just what I'm leaning towards based on my experience and limited research.

#7180180 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Joeyc250]  
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SLM Offline
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When all these guys are saying more less the same thing, it's time to listen.

Originally Posted by MontanaMarine
If someone's gotta ask, they probably need a 308Win.


Originally Posted by rcamuglia
I think the question has been answered and all here have given great input.

Long range hunting is in "vogue" these days having been popularized by tv shows and equipment manufacturers pioneering a new market to find a new venue to increase sales. It's great and the American way, but it also has created some problems as have been addressed in the thread.

Long range shooting/hunting isn't "rocket science". Any intelligent person can learn to do it pretty quickly either by himself or with instruction, but the cumulative learning of handloading long and range shooting experience takes time.

My advice would be for your friend to get a .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor. The light recoil will help him develop good shooting technique and habits. I also recommend a ton of long range TARGET shooting well before he attempts big game at long range. Varmints are great too.



Originally Posted by scenarshooter
^^^Good call Rick!


Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
Originally Posted by FishinHank
Above all else, practice practice practice!


And that right there is the crux of why he would be far better off with a .260 or similar rifle, rather than a .300Mag...

#7180200 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: SLM]  
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Joeyc250 Offline
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Don't take it the wrong way, but I didn't ask, someone asked for me because he didn't like my choice. However, I'm an open minded person, so I'll listen to everyone's suggestions.
Second, two of the three quotes you chose give different suggestions, and the other is simply a smart ass reply. I don't see everyone agreeing on the same thing, that's why I'm still engaged in this conversation.

#7180264 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Joeyc250]  
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Jordan Smith Online content
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The point he's making is that for your first truly LR rifle, you'll be better served by a 6.5 or 7mm than a .300WM. The external ballistics of the 6.5 and 7mm bullets give you an enormous bang for your buck as far as recoil, powder consumption, and bullet price goes. I would look at the .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor if you are interested in low cost, low recoil, high user friendliness, and great accuracy and ballistic potential. The next step up would be the 7mm Rem Mag, which gives equal and even superior ballistic performance to the .300WM, but with less recoil and cheaper bullets.

Either choice will be something that you will enjoy practicing with much more than with a .300WM, and therefore you WILL practice more in the end. If you practice more and enjoy shooting the rifle more because of the relatively gentle recoil, you will quickly be better able to place the bullet where you want it at long range, and that is far more lethal than a slightly larger bullet from the .300WM, if placed not quite as well. After all is said and done, you will be a more deadly LR hunter with a .260, 6.5 Creed, or 7RM, than you would be with a .300WM, unless you've put thousands of rounds down range from the .300 to learn the rifle and condition yourself to place your shots with precision, despite the unpleasant recoil.

And it wasn't a smart ass reply. I was serious.


"Others are happy to hit the rock, or maybe the dark spot on the rock. I wanna head shoot the mite clinging to the pubes on the left nut of the fly that's sitting on the black spot on the rock."
#7180320 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Jordan Smith]  
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Joeyc250 Offline
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Lol, that's exactly the type of reply that I consider most helpful. Suggestions with information to back them up are far more constructive and useful than a blunt suggestion followed by a smart remark. I do appreciate the feedback. Thanks.

#7180374 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Joeyc250]  
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SLM Offline
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If your referring to my post, there is nothing smart ass about it at all. The guys I quoted are the ones I read/listen to when it comes to long range shooting.

#7180390 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Joeyc250]  
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MontanaMarine Offline
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The OP left a few things for assumptions, such as sporter, varmint, or heavyweight rifle.

For a new-ish LR shooter I tend to default to the 308 for the commercial availability of match grade ammo, decent ballistics, and modest recoil. Nowadays the 6.5 Creedmoor is in that camp too.

300 WinMag also has good LR ammo available commercially, and if you want one, and are up to shooting it well, seems like this whole discussion is fairly moot. The factory seconds may not hold up too well in the accuracy department out at say 600+, but who knows maybe they will.

If you want a sporterweight that is kinda like your 30-06, you may simply need to get a scope with turrets, and a LRF, and get to practicing.

I think most of us get into LR with what we have, then our needs/wants tend to evolve. It's the normal course of things. A lot of enjoyment and learning along the way.

#7180615 - 12/13/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: MontanaMarine]  
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MojoHand Offline
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Perhaps another consideration is muzzle blast. Recoil isn't the only thing that can wear on you. A mag, especially braked, can have an effect on you even with good hearing protection.

Wen I first got into some LR, I built a 6.5-284 on a LA 700. I had a 24" barrel on her b/c I thought I'd use it more for hunting. Were I to build another, I'd go all out with a hot 6.5 or 7mm with a long barrel.

HOWEVER, my rig now is a HB .308 and it really is tough to beat when you factor in everything brought up above. You said reloading is out for now and I wouldn't place any faith in cheap .300 WM ammo and if you're not practicing at LR then you're wasting time.

Listen to the experienced guys on here. A .308 or .260 is where it's at for learning and practice--cheap and accurate and easy to shoot a lot of rounds. Get a LRF if you don't have one and learn to dope wind--that's the secret.


It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...

Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.

Stupidity has no average...
#7181833 - 12/14/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: Jordan Smith]  
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n8dawg6 Offline
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Originally Posted by Jordan Smith
The point he's making is that for your first truly LR rifle, you'll be better served by a 6.5 or 7mm than a .300WM. The external ballistics of the 6.5 and 7mm bullets give you an enormous bang for your buck as far as recoil, powder consumption, and bullet price goes. I would look at the .260 or 6.5 Creedmoor if you are interested in low cost, low recoil, high user friendliness, and great accuracy and ballistic potential. The next step up would be the 7mm Rem Mag, which gives equal and even superior ballistic performance to the .300WM, but with less recoil and cheaper bullets.

Either choice will be something that you will enjoy practicing with much more than with a .300WM, and therefore you WILL practice more in the end. If you practice more and enjoy shooting the rifle more because of the relatively gentle recoil, you will quickly be better able to place the bullet where you want it at long range, and that is far more lethal than a slightly larger bullet from the .300WM, if placed not quite as well. After all is said and done, you will be a more deadly LR hunter with a .260, 6.5 Creed, or 7RM, than you would be with a .300WM, unless you've put thousands of rounds down range from the .300 to learn the rifle and condition yourself to place your shots with precision, despite the unpleasant recoil.

And it wasn't a smart ass reply. I was serious.


this man is giving you good advice. In tangible terms, 6.5/.260 vs. .300 is the difference between burning about 70 g of powder to launch a 190-200+ g bullet, and burning about 40 g of powder to launch a 120-140 g bullet. the .300 wallops on both ends, but it doesn't give you a trajectory or wind-bucking advantage over the 6.5. And while the .300 isn't twice as expensive to shoot in terms of lead and powder, it isn't too far off.

personally, I have the most fun shooting a .308. It doesn't have the ballistics of the 6.5/.260, but it's not bad, and there are tons of things you can do with it from a reloading perspective. I've got a Remington 700P that I can shoot all day long without being bothered by the blast or recoil.


Uber Demanding Rifle Aficionado
#7181890 - 12/14/12 Re: need caliber advice [Re: n8dawg6]  
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Tanner Offline
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If you want to shoot it a lot, and eventually hammer game with it, buying a 7 Rem Mag is what you need to do.

I did that. And I'd be pissed having something else now... The high BC 7mm bullets are something you have to shoot to believe.

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