Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Light Rifles = more consistently accurate in colder climates?

I don't think there is much doubt that,all things being equal, a heavy barrel will group with repeat shots more "accurately" than a light tube....but a few sessions of schlepping a heavy rifle in rough country, or where game can appear at any time and the rifle will be (should be) in your hands most of the day,gets real old, real quick.Cruising bedding areas for mule deer in rough country comes to mind and for that work,a heavy barrel just sucks IMO....

I like to mix up the criteria for a rifle,and watch very carefully where it puts the first one, from a cold barrel,every time,and do this over the course of a year,and at distances from 300-600 yards,and from different rests and conditions....oh I shoot for groups, too,and like Mule Deer will once in a great while just sit and shoot 8-10 shots because this will really show flaws in the rifle if any exist...cant prove it with math,but know that flaws in the rifle will show up with 5-10 shot groups that may not be apparent with 3 shot groups.But I sure don't do this every session an once a rifle shows it groups well,I rarely, if ever just it down and shot a bunch of groups from the bench.

But once that stuff is out of the way,I revert back to cold barrel POI consistency,and what the rifle and I do with it in my hands...by then I "know" the rifle,and it reaches "boring" status..and by the time it gets boring,it's ready to hunt.

This is as easy to accomplish with a light tube as a heavy one for hunting purposes,and I consider it more important than pure grouping ability because it is very rarely that I get to kill an animal with a "group",which is the way I like things to turn out....like Rick points out,if you botch the firt one,things generally are on a downward spiral from there on out,and redemption is hard to achieve.

JB, I never argued that they didn't shoot...are you replying to my post?

My point was that for $3k, I'd expect them to shoot lights out. If they didn't, then what exactly would you be getting that you couldn't get now in a $1,200 rifle? Years ago, he had the market cornered on light rifles, but not anymore.

You're one of the relatively few who has actually shot a Forbes, so I'll take your word for it. But we won't really know about the brand until a statistically significant number of them are out there...over time. If the folks producing them can hold manufacturing and QC to something approaching Mel's standards over the long haul, then they'll likely be cranking out a fine rifle for the money. History has shown that this often isn't the case, particularly when the brand's patriarch leaves the operation.

I have great...GREAT respect for Melvin Forbes and what he's done with ULA/NULA. Had I bought one of his rifles years ago, I might not have a safe full that aren't quite right.

I just hunt. I'm not into competition, BR, etc so I'm going to ask a really ignorant question. Why should I care about 5 shot groups, especially when the first goes exactly where it's supposed to,and the second, and third one goes into consistently small groups?

Statistical Confirmation - but I also like the notion of 5 1 Shot groups from a cold-bore, with the targets superimposed.


In the cold a little weight helps stabilize your hold, if you happen to be shivering.

Cliff,

With thin barrels I prefer colder temps. My light 30-06AI's barrel is .552" at it's 26" long muzzle. With a 4x scope the rifle weighs 6 lb 8 oz. When working up loads, I like to keep the barrel cold. I love working up loads in our sub 30 F temps here in Utah winters.

Alan

I do it because it is an easy way to get enough shots to really have a good idea where any one will land. If we just shoot three shot groups and measure the size between the two farthest shots each time we really don't know what size target the gun is actually able to hit. That is because guns actually fire rounds into a cone. Three and five shot groups no matter how small, can be anywhere within that cone.

In other words, lets we have a gun that will put every round fired for the life of the barrel, say 2K rounds into a 1.5MOA "cone". We fire a 3 round group that is 1/2MOA. We fire another that is 3/4MOA. Then we have a flyer and a group just over 1 MOA. One more at .3MOA. Now most would say that they have a .5 MOA gun, if they do their part as that one group must have been them. The problem is that they don't realize that because they didn't shoot all the shots on one target, the first group was actually located in the upper left corner of the "cone", the second in the lower portion, the third sort of centered, and the last in the right. Even though each group was MOA or better, when overlaid on one target we get an aggregate of 1.5 MOA which is what the gun will mechanically be expected to do.


It's harder to write than to show. Below is a test I did showing just that.

The first 3 round group.




I somehow didn't get a picture of the second but it was 5/8ths of an inch.


This is the third.






The fourth with what seems to be a flyer....




The fifth.






Now it doesn't seem to be a tack driver but most would guess about a 1MOA or just over except for the one flyer. Well when we fire a 10 shot group we see that maybe that one at 3 o'clock wasn't a flyer after all.




When we look at the backer that was behind the 5x three round groups and the ten round group it's obvious that neither the far right shot or the two low shots in the 3 round targets are flyers.







I know from shooting a 50 round composite group that the group size was within a 1/4 inch of the 10 round group. Now I have around 3,500 rounds through that gun and most of the time 3 round groups are under an inch with that lot of ammo. However if I hang a 1 MOA target I can't guarantee that it will hit it on demand. Hang a 2 MOA target and it will hit it with every round fired. That is because it is really a 1.75MOA gun/ammo combo.

Formidilosus,

Actually, you explained it very well, but the photos help a lot.

One of the reasons so many half-inch rifles exist on the Internet because their owners never shoot more than 3 shots in a group---becuase they "know" sporter-weight barrels won't shoot when hot.

Even when doing preliminary load work-up I shoot at least four shots these days, as 3-shot groups are just too dependent on chance. When further along I shoot 5-shot to 10-shot groups.

The only trouble there (as I mentioned earlier) it that I can rarely write up those groups in my articles, because so many shooters these days have no real concept of accuracy, since their only frame of reference is 3-shot grouops. Hence they're not impressed with a 10-shot, 1" group--which is outstanding accuracy from a hunting rifle.

A sporter weight big game rifle that produces 1in, 10 round groups is outstanding.


People tend not to be so impressed with their half inch rifles when they shoot a 10 round group.... grin....

Thanks for the photo explanation!

I was planning on running an "experiement" with my .260 Montana and take a "backer" target as well as a fresh one each week. One cold-bore shot every week at the 200 yard mark and compare the results at the end of spring.

I think I'm going to up the ante a little and run a pair of targets. The single and then a five shot string on the next.

George

Formidilosus, great post.

NH K9, that would be a great test and will tell you A LOT about the gun. After I have the load worked up for a gun I used to do something very similar to track cold bore POI. However since shooting 3 x 5 round groups on the same target and/or 10 round groups I have found that I get no surprises. What it will do is show POI shifts due to bedding/mounts/scope/etc. That happens more than people think.

Your post is spot on with my experience. I tend to shot more than three shot groups just to see how long I can keep it going or try to get back on track. Have a few accurate hunting rifles, put together right with good components. Some times they will start stacking them up, but I've never got past 7 or 8 and the group stayed 0.5. Then the next go the whole group will have moved a little. Still a decent group, but it will have moved exactly as you have demonstrated or not be as small.

Shoot enough and you can start calling some flyers, but what do you do when you call a flyer and it is nestled in there with the rest of them? Everyone I know goes on and forgets about it.

Long ago I came to a positive conclusion that day in day out .5in hunting weight rifles-and us average Jo shooters-are for the most part an urban myth. Thanks for the post.

In addition, how many of us can consistently roll-or take the effort to put together-0.5in ammo day in day out. Myth and urban legend for the most part....

Formidilosus, excellent post. When I hear "1/2 rifle", my first thought is they dont shoot enough targets to know better.

Okay try this test. Load 20 shells and shoot two shots into the target. Repeat whenever you go to the range using that same target. Let at least two weeks pass between sessions. By the time that box of shells is finished you should be very happy if all the shots are in a 1 1/2 inch group.

My 6.5 pound NULA in 270 Win will beat that.

Another variation: A custom riflesmith I used to know would shoot an entire 20-round box of Federal's cheapest factory load from each of his finished rifles. If the 20-round group was under 2" he shipped the rifle to the customer. If not, he fiddled with the rifle until it did, but most shot the 2" grouop right away. His customers raved about the accuracy of his rifles.

I'm easy to please, I want the first shot to hit what I aim at.

What I have been sorely temtped to do is offer to pay someone that was willing to do the following with a hunting weight rifle and a non parallax adjustable scope-

1.Shoot 3 shots from a hunting position at a target say 300 or 400 yards away, in the hills-Shooting from sloping ground to a target placed on sloping ground across sloping ground.

2. move to another location, same range and conditions and shoot another three rounds from a hunting position.

3. Move back to first postion, repeat.

4. Move to altenate position, then repeat.

Wind meters not allowed.

I would really be interested in seeing the group size. I have never done this myself because having someone of my less than mediocre skills would be meaningless. I do have a pretty good idea of what my group size would be.
I have so little proficiency with a rifle that things like parallax, rifle cant, reducing wind drift through the use of a high BC bullet, rifle grip, velocity variations, bullet alignment are all factors in my shooting, and I know from reading here on the internet that a really good rifle shot has nothing but disdain for such trivia.
However, I think the test I have outlined above would be a pretty good indicator of a shooters ability to kill game at longer ranges.

Royce

Royce, hope alls well in your camp. I gotta ask though why the need for the non ao scope?

Thx
Dober

Side note the test sounds like a lot of fun. Back in the day I shot chucks and rocks a lot at long ranges and I always found it to be an interesting drill.

Mark
Things are kind hard going in the Royce camp. I have a girl friend that wants to spend all our time either hiking or looking for elk, so most of my time is spent doing one or the other or recovering from it. As you know, the wolves have decimated the elk herds, and yesterday in 4 hours of hard elk looking all we could find was 3026 elk, about 75 bighorn sheep and maybe 500 antelope.

Went in a different direction a few days before that and it was worse, saw maybe 300 tops. That was down around Mule Deer's baliwick, figure he must be keeping them shot off. Even our best day a week or so ago, we only could find was about 5000. Trying to find a new hobby, but the senior center has barred me, I think it was that deal about me butchering the deer in the activity room. What the hell is the good of an activity room if you can't do your butchering in there?

Back to the non- AO scope-
I think parallax is a lot bigger demon in trying to hit something in the field than most people realize. And, in trying to get to the point where I could hit a hay stack past 300 yards, I discovered, in my world that sucess in hitting things past 300 yards is a matter of doing a lot of little things correctly, and that doing one thing wrong could poleaxe the whole [bleep].
For example, even with wind flags, you never get the wind quite right, so a better BC gives you maybe a 1/16 MOA there. Having consistent velocity give you another 1/8 , and consistent rifle grip a 1/32-. In my experience, reaming flash holes reduced fliers. Using a powder that has less temp variations helps a little. Rifle cant can cause deviations.
A rifle that shoots 3/4 inch groups but prints those groups 44 inches high one day, three inches left the next and slings them low another day is worse than a rifle that will shoot 1 1/2 inch groups to the same place all year long.
Of course, all this is just my own opinions and observations, and I will yield any claim of expertise or even compentency.

Fred

Glad to hear things are well, can't imagine them no allowing the meat cutting there...grin

For the parallax scope do you not feel that an AO scope would help?

Thx
Dober


(fished Hyalite two nights ago, from dark to 9 and had a great but somewhat chilly night...grin. Moon coming over the peak was awesome!)