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Pro/Con me on the Big Timber makers.
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Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
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It's pretty much a no loose choice. But what the hell.
1. Shiloh is at least as good as CSharps and maybe better, definitely not worse.
2. For service - ditto above
3. For resale - ditto above
4. Shiloh donates more rifles to shooting matches as prizes, donates a rifle to a lucky American veteran annually
5. Shiloh raffles rifles from time to time to support other good causes that they choose to assist with.
6. CSharps probably does some of that same charitable work but it's not so obvious. Perhaps because they are a smaller outfit but ...
It's really really hard to not jump for a Shiloh, unless you find a significant price difference in the particular configuration you are looking for.
Last edited by BrentD; 01/24/13.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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I have a Shiloh on order. Their workmanship is excellent.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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For me it is C. Sharps Arms all the way. C. Sharps does donate rifles at matches too, they donated a rifle for a youth at Quigley. Delivery time at C. Sharps is much faster and they've always been much more willing to talk to me, explaining what they offer. C. Sharps Arms uses Badger barrel and that's is a good positive thing to say. And, in addition to their Model of 1874, C. Sharps Arms also has the High Wall and the Hepburn plus their 1875 Sharps. You get more options with C. Sharps Arms.
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Thanks 303. I did not know that about CSharps.
They are both great rifles. You really can't go far wrong here.
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The C sharps stocks are a bit "fuller" than the Shiloh.
As to quality no real difference.
Best to own at least one of each.
My personal preference is for Shiloh, but that's got more to do with the stocks feel better and fit me better than my C Sharps does.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Pro/Con me on the Big Timber makers. Shiloh...Montana Roughrider, .45-70, 30" bbl, MVA Mid-Range Soule, Hadley Eyecup, Globe Front sight w/level.  Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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What are you wanting to do with it?
Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
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What are you wanting to do with it?
Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
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I've never heard of a Shiloh owner parting with a rifle to acquire a C Sharps or Pedersoli (sp?). Folks often take the reverse route though.
1Minute
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Hey Ranch, Your comment about the stocks surprises me just a little. Back when you were running around Fort Bridger, C. Sharps Arms was the custom shop for Shiloh and their custom stocking was superb. It still is. And I do have a Shiloh too, it's one of their early percussions. We'll have to shoot it sometime.
And Brent, let me say "You're welcome." Both Shiloh and C. Sharps are great rifles. If you want to drool a bit, look at the C. Sharps website in their "in stock gallery" at the guns just wanting for buyers. No waiting time for those.
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There are three of us I know of just several weeks from delivery after almost a two year wait,all three are Shilohs.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Does John Schoffstahl still own C. Sharps? Or, did he finally sell it? Awhile back,I remember seeing ads that C. Sharps was for sale.
The most important aspect of this signature line is that you don't realize it doesn't say anything significant until you are done reading it & then it is too late to stop reading it....
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I have it on good authority it's still for sale and has been for quite some time.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Mike, there's a slight differences in the wrist especially the pistol gripped guns, and in the forearm's, and a big difference in the cheek piece on models so equipped. Still very hard to go wrong with either rifle, and a person really needs one of each.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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I've never heard of a Shiloh owner parting with a rifle to acquire a C Sharps or Pedersoli (sp?). Folks often take the reverse route though. I know a fella that sold off a quite extensive number of Shiloh's and replaced them with C Sharps, and he keeps saying "this one is the last one", but.... seems like about once or twice a year he's going on about just getting back from picking this rifle up at C Sharps....
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Flyboy, That sounds like a long wait to me. Last year I went off of the deep end and ordered two 74's from C. Sharps Arms, both with custom features. I already have them both and I'm very pleased with those rifles.
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If you really want to see the difference, tour both places. There is not near as much to behold at C. Sharps. On the other hand, if you visit Shiloh, you can see every aspect of the production of the rifle from start to finish. Shiloh manufactures all their own parts, including the receivers/barrels.
C. Sharps does sell a nice rifle, Shiloh builds a nicer rifle. There is a reason for the wait on a Shiloh and it isn't because they are slow. Demand has everything to do with the availability and Shiloh leads that category.
I could own either, I have more than 1 Shiloh, no C. Sharps. If someone gave me a C.Sharps, however, I wouldn't throw it away...
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Guys,
FYI, Badger Barrel no longer exists so C Sharps can't be using Badger barrels unless they have some old blanks in stock.
In 2009 the assets of Badger Barrels were acquired by the Principals of Airtronic USA. The company was renamed Badger Defense, LLC and continued to supply barrels for various US military weapons and also to nations friendly to the United States.
In 2012 Wilson Arms Co. purchased all the assets of Badger Defense Company, formerly known as Badger Barrels. The new facility is now known as The Wilson Arms Company � Bristol (Bristol, Wisconsin). Wilson Arms Co. is a high volume barrel supplier with minimum order requirements of 100 barrels.
Wayne
NRA & TSRA Lifetime member. NSSF member. Author & Publisher of the Browning 1885 BPCR book. See www.texas-mac.com
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There are three of us I know of just several weeks from delivery after almost a two year wait,all three are Shilohs. I bet that clock is crawling.  Gunner
Trump Won!
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I know fer a fact that Woody is crawlin' the walls as we speak I [bleep] him a LOT worse when I had him shoot the 44/90.
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish! ![[Linked Image]](http://i6.photobucket.com/albums/y222/EvilTwinMar/Sabretooth-1.jpg)
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I've never heard of a Shiloh owner parting with a rifle to acquire a C Sharps or Pedersoli (sp?). Folks often take the reverse route though. Having fondled 'err handled all three there's a definite difference in the wood to metal fit and overall fine craftsmanship of a Shiloh IMO.I'm partial but would rate Shiloh at the top then C Sharps and finally Pedersoli. Since I'm new to the game I've only shot a Shiloh but I do know the others aren't lacking in the accuracy dept from talking with friends who have them.My friend Otter [Nick] said he got his behind kicked in competitive shoots more than once going up against a Pedersoli as they had better barrels in the old days vs a Shiloh. Individual preference for price and wait time enters the picture so if a guy's not anal about Shiloh either of the other two is a good choice for hunting or banging steel over the curvature of the earth.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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There are two ways to get a Shiloh faster if you decide that is what you want. Three actually
1. What does Shiloh have on their website as immediately available for sale?
2. there are a TON of lightly used or effectively NIB Shilohs for sale at all the usual outlets. Just watch for a while and one will come along that might suit you fine.
3. Contact Bill Goodman and order your new, custom Shiloh for a few hundred dollars more and get it in several months instead of several years. Bill is the only guy that does this but he buys spots in line at Shiloh and sells them at a very reasonable mark up for folks that don't want to wait. Bill is well known and held in highest esteem. So, he is a safe bet.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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There are three of us I know of just several weeks from delivery after almost a two year wait,all three are Shilohs. I bet that clock is crawling. Gunner Yeah and it's worse since retirement..shoulda held off till my gun was in hand!
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Last edited by FlyboyFlem; 01/25/13.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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I have a Shiloh 1874 45-70 and a CSharps 1885 38-55. Both are high quality firearms in my view. In my case the cartridge and guns are quite different so I won't say one is better than the other.
One thing that I did was order very high grade wood on both of my guns. The shiloh is fabulous. The Csharps wood is extremely plain. I can't remember what I paid extra for the wood on the Csharpss, but that money was totally wasted. I did contact Csharps about the wood and never received a response.
NRA Patron
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What Brent said, although I don't know that Goodman charges several hundred. I recall when it was $150, and then maybe $200. Easy enough to find out.
I will have a rebarreled and unfired Shiloh .45-90 on the market shortly. 32" No. 1 Sporter, no sights.
Paul
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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There are three of us I know of just several weeks from delivery after almost a two year wait,all three are Shilohs. I bet that clock is crawling. Gunner One can always order a Randall knife; then the Shiloh deliveries will seem fast in comparison
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Brent I have checked in with Shiloh many times over the past two years about rack guns and have never found one exactly like I ordered.BTW what PP mould is your best shooter?
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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I know that Brent shoots a PP .45 bullet of his own design, and with great success.
If you don't want to go the full custom mould route, Buffalo Arms paper patched Money bullet is a good one, and not that different from Brent's.
As you probably know, calibrating the finished diameter is important, taking into account your measured bore diameter and the availability of paper in a specified thickness. Thousandths do count here!
My BA Money mould drops a .444 bullet that patches to .451. My Badger bore is slightly on the large side.
Paul
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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My bullets for 18" twist .45s that we are probably all thinking about is my own design, which I call a 411 Prolate. The mould was cut for me by Steve Brooks. A Brooks mould is not that much more than a BACO and comes almost as quickly.
Anyone can have Brooks (or someone else) make the same bullet and I will gladly provide the drawings and details. It is a well proven bullet out to 1000 yds when cast of 16:1 and loaded correctly.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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For just experimenting with patched bullets, ordering one of Accurates aluminum moulds is a fairly inexpensive way to go ,last ones I ordered were 85$ delivered. Also getting a mould from Old West was under 100$.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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I don't know this Accurate Mould company. Do they have a webpage, and is that $85 for a stock item or will they cut one to spec?
It looks very nice and the steel socket and pin set up looks like it would be very durable.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Brent, I believe the web is accurate moulds.com,but Mr google can confirm that.
The price is for either something you spec and he can make or something he's already got in place. Good guy to work with.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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accuratemoulds.com =
Manufacturers Of Plastic Injection Dies, Plastic Injection Moulds For DVD Boxes, CD Boxes, Audio Cassette Boxes, Video Cassette Boxes, EPS Moulds, Jig & Fixtures
ACCURATE MOULDS & DIES
Address : Plot No. L - 41, MIDC, Ahmednagar - 414111. Maharashtra. India.
Tel. No. : +91 - 241 - 2778355, Fax No. : +91 - 241 - 2778355, Mobile : +91 - 94222 20755.
More googlefoo is needed.
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http://www.accuratemolds.com/Gets it done. Thanks. I need this paper patch lever gun bullet....
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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I can whole heartedly recommend Bill Goodman. I ordered my first Shiloh with lots of upgrades and had it in a few months. It was $200 over the catalog price but he does ship it cheaper than what Shiloh charges. I have bought gently used ones off Gunbroker and the classifieds on 24hourcampfire.com. My most recent Saddle Rifle was on consignment at Buffalo Arms (they still have a couple more too), it was everything I wanted in a hunting gun. Had I not bought that one Shiloh had one in stock that had the standard wood that was close that I would have ordered. The deals are out there if you look hard. I have heard many say that the long wait allows you to save up the money to pay for the gun. I am just too impatient to wait.
Guns don't kill people, it's mostly the bullets
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Campfire 'Bwana
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There are three of us I know of just several weeks from delivery after almost a two year wait,all three are Shilohs. I bet that clock is crawling. Gunner Yeah and it's worse since retirement..shoulda held off till my gun was in hand! It's gonna be worth it Woody  , I looked over on C-Sharps at the beautiful 45-90 High-Walls,  damn there nice, and already built and ready to ship.  Gunner
Trump Won!
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The change in ownership and direction of Badger Barrels has been a game changer.
Shiloh's well-deserved reputation is based in considerable part on the quality of their barrels. In fact, if they sold their barrels separately they wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand.
Paul
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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Since last fall, I have heard lots of stories about Badger barrels current availability with CSharps, Miroku, CPA and others. I'm not so sure the game has changed for those folks. I heard Ernie is still working and I heard a lot of other stuff. I have no idea what is true or not, but if anyone REALLY knows, feel free to dish.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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I've heard similar things about Green Mountain.
Point is, you really need to get a handle on the current state of things you have under consideration.
Shiloh's quality seems to be a constant, and if anything seems to have just gotten better over the years.
Paul
Last edited by Paul39; 01/25/13. Reason: confused geography
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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OP
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I seem to have kicked the bee hive, here. Good info and thanks to all for your experience. I smell smoke!
Watch 'Yer Topknot!
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Uncas, No real smoke but it did bring a few of us out of the woodwork. That's good! Now, let us know what you have in mind.
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I will also add that I don't know what Shiloh's stated policy is with regard to warrranty work on rifles owned by other than the original purchaser, but in my case they have treated me very, very well.
Paul
Stupidity has its way, while its cousin, evil, runs rampant.
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Uncas, I agree with 303 - what would you spec in a Shiloh for instance and for what sorts of purposes.
There is a 4th way to get what you want in a Sharps. Buy a plain jane version used and rebuild it. This could take longer than ordering a new one and may cost more however.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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The change in ownership and direction of Badger Barrels has been a game changer.
Shiloh's well-deserved reputation is based in considerable part on the quality of their barrels. In fact, if they sold their barrels separately they wouldn't be able to keep up with the demand.
Paul I have an old C Sharps 45-31/4", I think it has a Badger barrel, sure shoots better than my no talent azz can shoot it. Gunner
Trump Won!
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Campfire Kahuna
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The NEWER Shiloh barrels are apparently a lot more desirable than once.
12-13 Years ago, and forward a bit, I re-barreled a LOT of Shilohs.
There's one on Steve Rhoades' site, as we peck, A Roughrider in my .38-50 Rem Hep chambering.
All the owners called out an improvement with the fresh Badgers.
The Shiloh that's on Rhoades' Site is the SQUAREST Sharps action I've ever worked with,......It drove tacks, in the "Fireforming Stage", for three different shooters, with LOTS of witnesses.
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Campfire Kahuna
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adendum.......
It would not just be conjecture that a company's barrel quality would improve with time, it would be, more likely, a virtual CERTAINTY.
GTC
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-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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The NEWER Shiloh barrels are apparently a lot more desirable than once.
12-13 Years ago, and forward a bit, I re-barreled a LOT of Shilohs.
There's one on Steve Rhoades' site, as we peck, A Roughrider in my .38-50 Rem Hep chambering.
All the owners called out an improvement with the fresh Badgers.
The Shiloh that's on Rhoades' Site is the SQUAREST Sharps action I've ever worked with,......It drove tacks, in the "Fireforming Stage", for three different shooters, with LOTS of witnesses. Very old "Farmingdale" Shilohs and preBryan Shilohs had poorly chambered barrels. This is almost certainly what you are refering to. Ernie told me that those old Shilohs were responsible for giving Badger Barrel Company life as rebarreling them is how he started his business of barrel making. Any Shiloh from the Bryan period (denoted with a leading or trailing "B" in the serial number), has a fine barrel.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 53,303 |
Didn't know that
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Farmers had the "mile-long" freebore. Had one of those myself. Bought a barrel from Ernie to fix it. Hence, the conversation. I prefer Farmers for a couple of reasons, but they are a barrel job in waiting if they haven't been done already.
Cost-benefit appropriately when considering.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Here's what Pete at C. Sharps just told me about their barrels, "Badger is no more. Was bought out by Wilson Manufacturing. They are making barrels, but we have not received any from them as yet. We still have some Badger barrels in stock, and have been using Green Mountain match grade barrels with good success and feedback. The Green Mountain bbls are double stress relieved, and cut rifled for the Sharps. Their barrels for the Highwall, lowwall, 75, and Hepburns are button rifled."
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Thanks for the update. I prefer GM barrels over all others in recent years and my two best rifles sport them. They are VERY competitive.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Thanks, Brent, I have liked GM barrels on muzzle loaders but have no experience with them for BPC shooting. Well, maybe I've got one but just didn't know it.
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This one looks like it has potential http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=36-275P-D.png , maybe have him make a bit larger meplat for filling the magazine.. I had him come up with the 43-470 p for the 44-77 and it's working very well. Gave Kurt some and he said his 44's liked them.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,247 Likes: 1 |
There are three of us I know of just several weeks from delivery after almost a two year wait,all three are Shilohs. I bet that clock is crawling. Gunner One can always order a Randall knife; then the Shiloh deliveries will seem fast in comparison I got a Bill Bagwell blade on the way Tex. Gunner
Trump Won!
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There is an interesting rifle in Shiloh's "ready to go" rack. It's a '74 Sharps #3 Sporting Rifle in .45/70 with a heavy 26" octagon barrel. That does appeal to me and it looks like it was made following the original shown on page 203 in Sellers' book on Sharps Firearms. All it would need is a sporting tang sight. It isn't a long-range gun but it would hold its own for mid-range shooting.
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Joined: Jan 2005
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Campfire Member
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I own both , 2 C. Sharps and 2 Shilohs , The workmanship on the four are great although Shiloh has nicer wood. All are good shooters.I like the C.Sharps tang sights. I had the hammer screws loosen up on the C. Sharps and on one of my C. Sharps the hammer spring broke. No problems with the Shilohs.
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I had a hammer screw loosen on one of my C. Sharps rifles too. It seems like the hammer falls so fast that the screw has trouble keeping up with it. But that was quickly fixed.
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Shiloh for me no debate at all. 1 st class rifle,products and the people you deal with there. Shot a yearling buffalo bull 2 weeks ago with my All Business Rifle in 45-2 7/8". use the same gun to 1200 yds target shooting with the same ppb loads. Gett'r done rfn. I have both and an original after you have both ,you won't have to ask that question. Magnum Man
Last edited by Magnum_Man; 01/26/13.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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the wife doesnt let me stop in Big Timber anymore  she stopped with me once and we went into Shiloh and she apparently saw the look on my face as i handled the ones on display and she drug me out of there before i did something stupid like max out a credit card.....
A serious student of the "Armchair Safari" always looking for Africa/Asia hunting books
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OP
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Since I started this and some of you have asked what this rifle would be used for...In a perfect world I would compete. The range here in Juneau is actually a city park and open to the public and is free. The nearest organized BPCR matces are a Jet flight and care rental away, take your choice Anchorage or Denver. Not too likly. Were I to hunt, I have an itch for a high wall in 405 or 444. 444 not very traditional but a 300 grainer @ 2200 fps is a killing combination. I have had several #1s a #3 and four 1895 Marlins so I know these are fightin words but the 45/70 is a bit boring. I was all fired up to buy a 1885 Browning 40/65 ,( campfire fella from North Pole, he owned it since new and it is un-fired, probably still for sale) neet-o, but with the gun in hand... it just did not talk to me. Black powder is not an option hereabouts. 'Have funding, desire, interest just no need. None needed, of course a trip to Tulsa is in order, after all the black rifle BS slows down.
Watch 'Yer Topknot!
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A highwall in .405 would be something to have. Now that Hornady is making the ammo, getting fodder for it is no problem. Bullets too.
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Just don't shoot anything any tougher than a paper target with the hornady 405 bullets, they made those cases a bit light. Brass holds up well tho.
Check the Shiloh catalog, they did offer a couple of their round barrel guns in 405.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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My choice would be the Highwall from C. Sharps Arms with the straight grip and the octagon barrel for either .405 or .444. I've got a C. Sharps highwall in .32-40, some gun.
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If you take Hornady .405 brass and squeeze it, you have a .38-72 and all the .375 bullets are yours to play with. I did this in a highwall, but of course I use lead, paper-patched bullets. You don't have to though.
More range and more flexibility than a .405
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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And he could go for a .38-56 and use .45/70 brass.
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Yeah, but then you have a bottleneck cartridge that is anemic with blackpowder. So, you lose that option more or less.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Ah, but he said black powder was "out." Or did I miss-read something..?
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A couple of folks have mentioned here that the wood quality seems better on the Shilohs than the C. Sharps for similar price rifles. That has been my observation as well. I've never owned a C. Sharps and am on my third Shiloh. I travel for work between Helena and Billings a few times a year and always try and stop in Big Timber when time allows. My first two Shilohs were bought at a local gunshop, and my current Shiloh is one I bought off the rack in Big Timber, though it wasn't configured as I would have ordered it. I shot it for couple of years and then dropped it off with Shiloh for five months and had it rebuilt exactly how I would have ordered it. When I added up the cost of the rebuild (with lots of upgrades), plus what I paid for the original rifle, I ended up spending $800 over what it would have cost to order it that way to begin with. Figuring that I would have likely gone through Bill Goodman and paid the $200 fee, that increase is closer to $600. At least that is how I justified it to myself
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OP
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Hey that Ballard may do...
Watch 'Yer Topknot!
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Ah, but he said black powder was "out." Or did I miss-read something..? But who would want a rifle that did not shoot black well?
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Well, he is in Alaska and "There are strange things done 'neath the mid-night sun..."
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OP
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Cannot just put a few cans in the checked bags...Living on an island in SE AK has its charms, one is justabout no choices. Halibut, Crab, Salmon, Halibut, Crab, Salmon, you get the idea...
Watch 'Yer Topknot!
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I hunted in southern Alaska with black powder (front-stuffer) but I really don't recall how my powder got there. Either I quietly took a little bit with me or my guide already had some. A lot of game was seen and I even got to wait out a storm while "hiding" in Point Baker. Quite a little place. And I played with a otter there that was running around on the docks. He must have been the village pet.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I have had both but none for the last 6-7 years, both co. built Great rifles, I even had a New Ballard 44-77 that was a dandy! Had a pretty maple stocked 1895 C. Sharps in 45-70 killed a bunch of deer with it! had a Great 5070 Shilo, that I bought from Bill Goodman, he was great to deal with and we talked alot of times, that 50-70 was a carbine saddle ring,I could shoot bowling pins off had at 50yrds with it! took it on 3 bear hunts but never saw a bear to shoot, I realy wish i still had that gun! I did own one of the Farmingdale Wolf rifles in 45-120, 14lbs, and still kicked, but ya had to clean it after every shot, or you couldnt champer another round! it didnt last to long. someday if I every get back on my feet, ill get another Sharps!
Deer Camp! about as good as it gets!
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Pro/Con me on the Big Timber makers. While you can get a good/great rifle from either C or Shiloh Sharps . . . my sig line will tell you where I stand.
Someday I hope to be the person my dogs think I am . . .
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
Someone once said "a nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."
Shiloh Sharps . . . there is no substitute.
NRA Endowment Member
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And I still stand with C. Sharps Arms. In late February I ordered a custom '74 and now I'll get the new rifle next week. Only five weeks from first thoughts to finish! That doesn't make for a lot of waiting time.
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Sounds like a good move. What sort of 74 did you order?
No flies on a C.Sharps. I'm sure she will shoot.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Brent, It's the Custom Classic '74 with the brass crescent butt-plate, in .44/77 with a heavy 28" barrel. No rear sight on the barrel, I'll have to shoot it from the hip until I get a tang sight.
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Get that tang sight fast! Must hurt to have the gun and no way to aim it!
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Brent, Actually I've already got a Mid-Range deluxe just waiting for it. And I probably won't waste too many shots from the hip, I don't have enough ammo for that...
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Here's Mr.303's brand new 44, get your drool rags handy. ![[Linked Image]](http://i51.photobucket.com/albums/f358/Ranch137/44-77_zps189cb1a7.jpg)
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Beautiful rifle!! GOOD thing it is a 44/77 and NOT a 44/90 with THAT buttplate!!!
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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WOO-DAMN!!!!!, that's purty, congrats 303.
Gunner
Trump Won!
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That's about as pretty as they come. I'd be seen with that rifle any day.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Campfire Outfitter
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WOO-DAMN!!!!!, that's purty, congrats 303.
Gunner Can't say it any better than that!!! ;),,B-U-T FULL
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Beautiful rifle sir. Congratulations.
A good principle to guide me through life: “This is all I have come to expect, standard lackluster performance. Trust nothing, believe no one and realize it will only get worse…”
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Thanks for your kind comments. Hey Evil Twin, that buttplate is one of the best things about my new rifle. You never notice it as long as you shoulder the rifle correctly. I've had a .50/90 with that buttplate for over 30 years and it fits me just fine.
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Outstanding looking rifle, Mike . . . Shoot it in good (for good?) health!!!
Someday I hope to be the person my dogs think I am . . .
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
Someone once said "a nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."
Shiloh Sharps . . . there is no substitute.
NRA Endowment Member
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Hey, Woody, did you guys get any of that ice down your way? We get ice down here, but it is usually in Jan or Feb. Not a bit fun . . . ever.
Someday I hope to be the person my dogs think I am . . .
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
Someone once said "a nation of sheep will beget a government of wolves."
Shiloh Sharps . . . there is no substitute.
NRA Endowment Member
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Otter, Thanks, I'll try to keep good health just to I can shoot it, more and more. And I like ice cream but not in the snow...
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Hey, Woody, did you guys get any of that ice down your way? We get ice down here, but it is usually in Jan or Feb. Not a bit fun . . . ever. No we didn't Nick, Omaha got some heavy T-storms with golf ball and larger hail which beat things up pretty good but I think eh 76 out in Wyoming sorta wrung out much that was headed our way as they had 18" of the white stuff! MIKE..just wondered if you know the factory lead on your new rifle?
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Beautiful rifle, Mike!
Let us know how she shoots!
Ed
"Not in an open forum, where truth has less value than opinions, where all opinions are equally welcome regardless of their origins, rationale, inanity, or truth, where opinions are neither of equal value nor decisive." Ken Howell
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Flyboy Flem, No, I don't know about the lead time at C. Sharps Arms, if I understand your question properly. In fact, I thought ordering a .44 would delay things but that didn't happen. And I had no idea it would be ready when it was until I got word from them that it would be ready the following week and I could come and get it. Even if I did have an idea about the lead time on some of their guns it wouldn't be fair to say so because as with any custom shop, each gun is different. If you are really interested, ask C. Sharps by all means. 303Mike
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Ed, As it happens, I just returned from the range with that new .44/77. The paper patch loads are giving me some trouble, they simply need more time to work things out. So, I loaded some of the Postell slyle bullets that Ranch gave me. My shooting, so far, is just at 50 yards and with the heavy Postells I got a 3-shot group that really pleases me. That group was low in the black, so I adjusted the rear sight to hit higher. My adjustment was too much and the next group, on another target, went high and into the white. I sent Ranch a picture of the good target and maybe he'll post it here. He said he could teach me how to post my own pictures but I'd rather have him teach me how to shoot! I have no worries about this new C. Sharps rifle being a good shooter, I've just got to keep up with it.
Last edited by 303mike; 04/11/13.
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Mike,
What grade of wood does C.Sharps call that? I don't know if I've seen a better piece of black walnut, with perfect grain through the wrist to boot.
She is a handsome rifle for certain - and you take a mighty fine picture too.
Good to know she seems to shoot.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Flyboy Flem, No, I don't know about the lead time at C. Sharps Arms, if I understand your question properly. In fact, I thought ordering a .44 would delay things but that didn't happen. And I had no idea it would be ready when it was until I got word from them that it would be ready the following week and I could come and get it. Even if I did have an idea about the lead time on some of their guns it wouldn't be fair to say so because as with any custom shop, each gun is different. If you are really interested, ask C. Sharps by all means. 303Mike I was referring to the degree of chamber lead..
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Oh, I would have spelled that leade... Which probably isn't correct either. Yes, I asked for a sketch which shows the leade into the rifling at a 1 1/2-degree taper which follows a .150" long section ahead of the cartridge case area at .448" diameter. That .448" section is for the first band of a bullet. The land to land diameter of the barrel is shown as .4375". I think the very slow or almost flat leade to the rifling is just the thing for paper patch loads. Now I'll do my best to prove it.
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Brent, The wood on this rifle should fall into the Extra Fancy class of walnut. That's what C Sharps calls it in their catalog. When it looks that good, it's worth it.
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My bad on the spelling and I think you're absolutely correct about the PP loads.That is really a beautiful shootin iron you have there!
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Thanks, Woody, now when I do get the PP loads to shoot like I think they should I probably won't be able to keep quiet about it.
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Last edited by Ranch13; 04/11/13.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Thanks, Ranch, that's the target I was talking about.
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Ubecha. That rifle is sure showing promise. You find it's sweet spot and it's going to shoot tiny little groups I'm thinking.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Campfire Ranger
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Here's Mr.303's brand new 44, get your drool rags handy. To add: I would be mighty proud to have that rifle under my arm on my Friday nite trips to da whorehouse
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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With that rifle under your arm and the HOG-LEG in yer britches, you'd be ready fer the biggest and baddest hoe-house in the land eh ET? Gunner
Trump Won!
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Mike I like your tast in rifles. If your rifle and mine stood in the rack at the range I just might pick your up by mistake, but the two triggers would give it away. The cressent but plates just set these Sharps off.
And it looks like you got that 77 off and shooting good in a short time.
Kurt
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Kurt, We'll have to shoot together sometime, for sure. That good target was probably beginner's luck. My shooting today wasn't quite as good. On the other hand, it was better, better because I did fairly well with my paper patched bullet. That actually pleases me more than the shooting with the greaser. Of course, I'd be quick to go with the heavier greaser for long range work. So, I'm liking this rifle too much to let you pick it up by mistake... (G) Yes, our rifles do look quite a bit alike. 303mike
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I havent shot mine much since I got it. I been working with the .44-100 to get it ready for the seasons upcoming matches,,but I think that group in the photo will be the potentials of the .44-77 when you match that case with the powder and bullet. Like every one shooting these rifles we have good days along with the days you scratch your head and wondering what happen. My rifle most likely never will have a tang sight on it because it was not build with match shooting in mind but with the barrel sights on it, it shows it would do just fine with the single trigger and light weight barrel it has.
Keep us up to date with your progress with the little .44
Kurt
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Hey Kurt, Most people will probably get tired of hearing about this one. Right now I'd better go clean it. 303mike
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I don't understand why the .44 takes the back seat to the .45. I shoot the .45's in several calibers and the .44's. My .44 have it over the .45's for flatter shooters and the accuracy is just as good as the .45's. One of my .44's stands way over the .45 as far as accuracy and the few that shoot the .44's in matches are usually on the top of the leader boards at the end of the day.
A .44 was my first large caliber rifle and will probably be the last. The .44 has been in my hands on and off for the past 60+ years. I like it.
Now that the brass is starting to come back in supply maybe the popularity will come back.
Last edited by Kurt71; 04/12/13.
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Kurt, the difference between a .44 and .45 is pretty immaterial don't you think? I mean really, such a small difference in diameter and weight and essentially no difference in BC, it can't really matter. Just find the optimal speed and send it out there.
I haven't see a .44 on the leaderboard ever. I'm not sure I've seen more than one or two in competition. I suppose I could go back through the silhouette nationals scores that I posted on my website but I don't recall a .44 off hand. There must have been a few over the years, but since I've been out there, I don't recall one. hmm. might have to go look.
Brent
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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I'm thinking that Kelley Roos and Zack Taylor has shot some good scores with various 44's.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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they probably did but I don't think Kelley has been to Raton since 2008 or so. I've been paging back through the results. One .44-75 is listed in 2010. No way to know how it shot though. Probably some more going further back.
I uploaded all the scores to the web and made a front end page for anyone that wants to page through them. The files are scanned PDFs so they are not searchable as text files unfortunately but there are equipment summaries in the beginning of each results book.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Seems that Chip Mate has done some exceptional shooting at Phoenix with a 44-77 , if my recaller is working right.
I do know that at one of the big shoots at Alliance the wind was particularly tough and the only 2 rifles that ran the 1000 yd were a 50-90 and a 44-90.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Yup, that sounds about right. Of course, Chip would shoot great scores with a .22 rimfire if he had to.
I don't see how any particular diameter is head and shoulders or even a few nits better than a caliber that is 0.01" bigger or smaller.
Save an elk, shoot a cow.
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Yeh from the sounds of it Chip could take a redryder bb gun to a match of somekind and kick some serious butt.
You are right about it not making any sense as to why the 44 works.
I don't know what it is about the 44 but it does seem to be easy to get to shooting well.
There's got to be a reason why Remington took so long to drop it from their line. There's also a handful of foreign military units that used a 44 of some variation right to when they went to 8mm and some still kept the 44's in use.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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It is probably easy to get it to shoot well because it has a good balance between a bullet size and powder charge. I think that is why the .45-70 and the .45-90 are great chamberings.
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That could very well be it.
Looking forward to seeing what you and Kurt can get done at Lodi. Especially anxious to get the reports from Kurts 44-100 on it's maiden voyage at long range targets.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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Well I said the .44 was not popular or used much but Kelley, Zack and Chip have had good success with the .44 as well as it did during the short years of the Creedmoor matches.
I think one of the reasons the .44 lost out to the .45 is because the .45 was a war caliber that flooded the markets like the .223 took over the .222, .30-06 and the .22-250 this day and age.
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ET is havin a ball with his 44-90 and actually shooting his gun was my first BPCR outing last Oct before our Wy speed goat hunt.. managed to shoot a 3.5" group at 135 yds in a 15 mph TV wind and wasn't ready for the recoil while sitting on my flimsy chair.Took me off backwards and I landed on his new shooting glasses...crunch. Think maybe down the road a second gun in 44 of some length would be the cats meow! Been shooting my 310 gr cast outta my 444 Marlin with outstanding accuracy out to 250Yds with barrel sights, gotta be alot said for the 44 caliber.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Kurt, do you happen to know what the twist on the original 44/90 was?? You have had and used a 44 for 40 years??? a Sharps or a RB?? Curiousity compels me.
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!
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ET,
I never had an original Sharps. Most of my old powder rifles were Rem rollers you could get for less then $20. that was all I could afford.
My first .44, actually it was a ,43 spanish started in about 1954-5 dont remember for sure when I ordered it out of the back pages of the NRA magazine. and since I had two .44-77, one came with a bunch of rounds with removable iron heads. One was a RB in the .44-90. Then I got the bug for Bench rest and bulls eye pistol and front stuffers but the blk powder cartridge was always the one I used for just plain fun shooting.
The first two .44-90 Sharps were Shiloh's and the one chamber was cut from a reamer that I had made from a original 1877 Sharps chamber cast used for the Creedmoor that was like new that the owner wanted some PP rounds for display and he made a chamber cast for me in trade. I asked what the ROT was and he said as near as I can tell it was 1/18 or 1/19.
Now I have a Shiloh in .44-77, .44-90bn and a .44-100 ST.
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Thanx Kurt. I have been liking my Shiloh 44/90 a lot. Got s supply of KIK 1.5 as recommended and it looks to have been a very good move. Killed another wild hog with it last month. I suspected the original ROT was around 1:19. That means 500 g bullets will stabilize fine. LOADS of fun just trying out anything I want.
Be afraid,be VERY VERY afraid ad triarios redisse My Buddy eh76 speaks authentic Frontier Gibberish!
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Burned some KIK 2 FG in my old .45 on Easter Sunday just past.
Didn't have the clock set up, but noted that my elev for Turkeys was down NINE points from the Swiss load I was running last From .680 down to 590,.......and the old pelter was really belting me. looks like this "Lotsa' energy in KIK" carries some water.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Oops you think that KIK has energy , wait till you get ahold of some Olde Eynsford..
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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I'm a fan of 'Low and Slow', and am not really sure than I WANT any more energy.
Uniformity, consistency, and softer fouling are damned sure welcomed, though.
I thing there's some OE on the way to play with,.....I better get that 100 finished and running,......
Kinda' lost in (and in love with) that old Hollis, at the moment.
Don, THANKS for the great updates and evals on this new powder, and hope you'll keep it coming, Bud.
GTC
Member, Clan of the Border Rats
-- “Sometimes I wonder whether the world is being run by smart people who are putting us on or by imbeciles who really mean it.”- Mark Twain
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Thanks Greg it's been fun testing the stuff. Now I need to see if I can get the sort of accuracy from it that Kurt has been getting.
It's been interesting also reading some of the info that's starting to trickle in on the stuff.
We should be seeing what ol Kodiak got his 45-70 to do with the stuff right quick.
Haven't completely sold myself on it yet, altho all it will take is to start matching group sizes with KIK and I'll be hooked on it, cuz the fouling is super easy to deal with so far, but we need to get into some hotter temps and low humidity to really get good test.
the most expensive bullet there is isn't worth a plug nickel if it don't go where its supposed to. www.historicshooting.com
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