Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Rifles What's the difference in Winchester M70 CRF models.

I am looking at getting a M70 classic made in new haven. Does a guy spend the extra for a pre 64 or functionally is there much difference between the different versions.

Well, this can go a lot of different directions and open even more questions for you. No functionally there isn't much difference.

Depending on what you are after there may not be much difference in price. I own both and love my pre 64's for what they are and the same for my new haven crf models. If you want a stainless then New Haven no question but as you look at caliber selection, rifle configuration, purpose etc. etc. you may be able to develop a better path of what my suit you best.

For me it's easy, you just buy em all.

Most of the Classics will net you a "better" gun than a pre-64 if you are buying it to use. If you want to buy a gun as an investment to look at, "SOME" of the pre-64's will increase in value and have some collector value. Most pre-64's have little collector interest and are really not worth that much money.

The Classics were made from 1994-2006. If you end up with one of the guns made during the last year or 2 of production you stand a better chance of getting a gun with issues. Most are minor problems a gunsmith could easily tweak, but there were a few true lemons made then.

a related question. Other than the models sold as classics, were there other models made in NH post 64 that were CRF, particularly stainless CRF?

Maybe this will help, a nice article by John Barsness:

Shooting 70 Years of Model 70s

And also this:

1992 - 2006 Model 70s

Note that the Classic kept the "anti-bind" locking lug groove bolt guide of the 1968 push feed Model 70.

Also some CRPF models were made.

This really does come down to personal preferences. I know you said you want a CRF and I am not trying to talk you into something you don't want...but the M70 pushfeeds are very good shooters and can easily be had. Just an idea.

If CRF is a must, then buy a postcrf to hunt with. You'll not be disappointed

That's usually the way I see it, especially the "buy em all" part

Have you considered a new FN made model 70? The few I've had have been great shooters. I liked them enough that I still have 2 out of the 3....

Yep, that part was getting me for a while, too.

Speaking here as a "user",not a smith nor "expurt". YMMV

The fundamental design is basically the same for the Classic and the pre 64's....the pre 64 was never designed as a showpiece,more a basic working rifle, and in general the Classic will get you a better stock...since I am not wildly in love with any of the stocks for either one,that's a wash for me.They are both serviceable enough,and you won't suffer in the field with either one.I use them but mostly always think about restocking any of them.I have seen few of either era that I am wild about.

I'm told by some of the better M70 smiths in the country that the Classic receivers are better, easier to straighten and true up than a pre 64,and they like them better for customs,especially magnum chamberings.Pre 64's were heat treated in their entirety(not selected parts like the Classic)....part of the reason for the very slick feel and distinct sound with the cams and bolt movement of a pre 64, which is unique and something a M70 shooter could detect more or less blindfolded;you cantell the sound across a room......if you are a M70 shooter you know what I mean...if you aren't I can't explain it to you.

Extractors on the Classic are MIM's mostly except toward the end of production;they work OK but I test them because many were indifferently fitted and some will drop a cartridge on the way to the chamber if not fitted correctly.Not so with a pre 64 extractor,which were all spring steel,strong, and reliable...since the extractor depends on spring tension to hold the cartridge against the bolt face,a spring steel extractor is important...mostly I replace the extractors on the Classics as soon as I get around to it.

You never knew what kind of follower you were going to get with a Classic;they started out OK but started to vary in design and material along the way as someone in NH was tinkering with either cost savings or a way to make them feed more easily.You never had this issue with a pre 64;I have never seen one that did not feed slickly and reliably.

I have seen a couple of Classics that would not close down into battery,after stripping a cartridge into the chamber...worse, they did this randomly.I know because I owned one...it drove me nuts until my smith traced the problem to the back of the bolt.Another left handed action belonging to a friend did the same thing.

The bolt handle of the pre 64 is machined integral to the bolt body;it can't pop loose; the Classic is two piece,but can be reinforced.

I like machined steel parts which is what you get from a pre 64;some parts of the Classic are castings.

Bottom metal on pre 64's mostly worked as they came from the factory....something I can't say about Classics.Magazine boxes and followers were tailored and proportioned for each cartridge;the old rifles were hand tweaked by workers for proper functioning,and idn't leave the factory until they did...something I simply can't say about many modern rifles based on what I've seen.A lot of the Classics remind me of more precisely made parts that are more sloppily assembled.

Classic tubes are hammer forged;pre 64's were cut(broached)...the reason I am not surprised at the results Mule eer got with his 30/06 as I have had many pre 64's that shot those 21st century groups,and some of mine have shot as well as any custom barrel I have ever owned.

While the designs were similar, the Classic suffered from pretty indifferent assembly and QC;I have become fatigued at times dealing with things like egged chambers,barrels screwed on crooked,have seen one barrel with a section of rifling missing,sloppy bolt fit,lousy bedding,cartridges jumping from the magazine before their time,sloppy trigger fit,extractors that dropped cartridges, etc etc etc.

Got a call on the cell from a friend who dialed me after leaving a field in Alberta...said the safety on his M70 Classic had fallen out and what should he do? I laughed, told him to sell it and hung up... Never had that happen with a pre 64....

So..... when someone tells me the Classic is a "better" rifle, I ask them "How so?" and after "who" has worked on it?

Most of these Classic issues can be easily corrected by a good smith.My 7mm Mashburn started out as a Classic FW.Gene Simillion trued it up, performed a bunch of other trick moves, opened it to H&H,replaced the box with an Echols, and Dakota follower...the thing is a peach,functions flawlessly, likely better overall than a pre 64. I am thinking about having him do a new 375H&H. I will start with a Classic action.They don't need that much work generally but I go over them with a fine tooth comb before I deem them ready to hunt...some need little and some need lots IME.

Redneck dropped a pre 64 FW 270 into a Compact Edge for me...it shoots and functions great;I have killed two good mule deer bucks with it since I got it 4 or so years ago.It's one of those rifles you just don't think of ever selling.

Two other pre 64's a 270 and a 375H&H, have been around since the 80's,both in Brown stocks....the 375 is on barrel #2,the 270 recently got its' third barrel,a Brux,and has been so many places and killed so much stuff I have lost count.Over all those years and lots of rounds, it has never baubled once.

I can't recall a Classic that didn't need some attention but I have never had a pre 64 that needed anything to make it work and function perfectly as it came from the factory....aside from those damned stocks,but that's a matter of taste more than anything else.

JMHO and YMMV

Great write up there Bob, also most M70 fans really like the old trigger design vs. the new FN's.

Randy that's true as well.

Sounds like most of the Remingtons I work with..

Bob, you musta got a chitload of bad-un's at some time.. I've rarely run into all those problems you state above.. Of all the local stuff that comes in the shop I'll get 10 Rems to every M70 - realizing that part of it may just be there's a ton more Rems around. Still, other than customizing a bunch of rifles for my good customers I rarely have one in the shop that fails to function properly.

Ya THINK???

Redneck I have maybe owned way more of them than I shoulda... and a tad too many WSM's,some of which were terrible turkeys.

I am jaundiced a bit because my general experiences with pre 64 M70's have been so good over the years, I tend to nitpick.

Yeah, I agree with ya on those WSMs - that series of cartridges shoulda never left the drawing board IMVHO..

This,pretty much sez it all and I completely agree with Bob's summary. I have owned many P-64s, not as many as Bob has and do have two stainless Classics, one shorty in .308Win. and one "beater" in .338WM, with shortened tube. They both wear Micky Fwt. stocks, Edge for the .308 and std. for the .338 and I am installing Brockman peeps with the Talleys they wear.

I had the bolt handle welded, few other mods and the receiver for the the .308 is slabbed. These are working rifles for BC's vile, wet weather and to leave in trucks and tents so my nicer and much more $$$$$ rifles do not get "fubared".

I much prefer the original P-64s and they are one of my three favourite designs as factory offered, the others are rare older Brno models.

I also like how easy it is to work on P-64s, change parts, customize them and they DO shoot!

This, may be "odd" to some, but, I have owned a really NICE Dakota 76-.338WM for almost 20 years, shot game with it and it is a DRILL with warmish 250 NP loads. I had Ralf Martini custom-tune it some and it IS one fine rifle. That said, I prefer my P-64 Alaskans in .338 and my original and favourite one, is super accurate, smooth and precise in operation and it has a certain "feel" so that I have total confidence in it and just love it.

YMMV, but, the status of P-64s in our hunting society, worldwide, is much more than just the "cultish" approbation of something now relatively rare.

Kutenay: Well said!

There is certainly a fair amount of cult appeal to the pre 64,and there are lots of relatively rare rifles out there.....but I would respectfully submit that there are a lot of "users" out there,too; and I doubt they would be avid fans if the things did not work as they are supposed to.

I don't ever recall a pre 64 M70 user who concerned himself with a "manufacturers warranty",something I think of when it comes to computers and truck transmissions...but in a hunting rifle, the thought never crosses my mind.

Bob, I agree, nice write up. Question tho, what does MIM mean in regard to extractors?

Also, did the classics have free-floating barrels, or what?

I only owned one M70 -- a Classic featherweight -- and it had good fit and finish compared to other rifles of that same era and gave me no problems, so there is one data point. It was also very accurate.

MIM - metal injection molding..

Most classics do not have free-floating barrels; many sport wood stocks with a raised bump near the fore-end tip called a contact point.. If one has an issue with accuracy many times the removal of that contact point will help..

I don't like those - on a wood stock they can certainly change POI when weather/humidity changes..