Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles Which one????

I want an AR, but cannot decide which cartridge! What are the pros and cons of the following cartridges in the AR 15?

6.5 Grendel
6.8 SPC
7.62X39 Soviet
458 SOCOM
500 Beowulf

I really don't want a 223, but if they really outshine the competition, by all means enlighten me as to why.

Thanks,
AC

What will the application of this upper be? The variants listed have very different applications

6.5 Grendel - Paper punching round, limited tactical use/reliability, $$$ to buy upper that handles it, $$$ and/or reloading to buy cartridges. Possible OAL issue, but no first hand knowledge.
6.8 SPC - Tactical round, not particularly accurate for paper-punching, cartridges/loaded or unloaded are made from pure, refined unobtainium
7.62X39 Soviet - Bolts and bolt-faces are not really designed to handle it, history of feeding/bolt-failure problems
458 SOCOM/500 Beowulf - Short-range round? Not really a bunch of these out there being shot to discover what problems/challenges these bring.

Bottom line, if you aren't a tweaker/experimenter, stick w/ .223/5.56. If you ARE a tweaker/experimenter (and if you are, what are you doing asking this question on THIS site and not AR15.COM), great! Try one of these other choices, and let us know how it works out for you.

Reality is 223 is fun and cheap to shoot. Want to shoot deer use a TSX bullet and pick your shots and you'll still be ok.
6.5 Grendel-- expensive everything, extremely accurate(one of the most accurate and wind bucking rounds I've shot so far) Resembles a 260 Rem and makes a fine hunting round.
6.8 spc- whatever you can use it for, I'm not a big fan, but am a fan of the 6mm WOA which is 6.8 necked to 6mm. Makes a nice deer round to 200 or so. 85 tsx are accurate and kill well.
7.62x39-- cheap ammo-- needs better mags. Plinking round but also a good deer round. There were bolt issues, mostly related to inferior products than anything else.
458 Socom I don't have YET. I have 50 Beowulf. Good to 200 yards, not picky, feeds perfect. Packs plenty punch. Accurate enough. It brings no challenges or problems. It will be taken down as light as I can get it and then taken to Alaska for a moose next trip. Works fine on coyotes, deer and pigs too.

AR15.com--hahaha.. Thats a great sight to put on your nomex. Never heard so many wannabes tell experienced folks how its supposed to be done.....May be better now, but in the last years of my competition shooting there was not much that was great over there vs competition shooting sights.

Jeff

There are also the WSSM's being chambered for the AR. They are expensive, a relative term, limited in magazine capacity, a bit difficult to load for, but awesome performance and good accuracy from what I have seen with my 243 WSSM and from what I have heard from others.

Thank you gentlemen. I will have to check out that AR15 website. As far as application I was thinking general plinking and/or hunting (deer and/or pigs).

Thanks again.

AC

What source are you using for .500 Beowulf? I'm kind of interested in that myself, provided I don't have to shuck out 2G to get it.

I agree about ARF.com. You will get flamed there, no matter what you post, but AC of AR should be used to that. He's got pretty tough hide, from my experience.

Alexander Arms but through Competition Shooting Sports in Houston TX. I don't really recall the price but I have plenty of lowers so I got the 16 inch upper. Probably no more than 800 or so. With lowers running 300 appx worst case, you won't be spending 2G for sure.

Also check out RRA as they are selling 458 socom supposedly. Not a bunch of difference really that I can tell.

And I keep forgetting about wssm rounds but since Ricky has one we are lucky that he keeps reminding me.

Really for deer and pigs with the right bullet a 223 will work fine. But bullet choice and shot placement are the keys. And a bad shot I took with a 223 on a deer and dumb enough to use the wrong bullet and never saw a vine, well its the reason I got the 50 beowulf next.

Jeff

Jeff

Sir, I am all over that .458 or .500 thing. I was under the impression it was just a pistol round, so didn't put any effort into it.

I have plenty of lowers, so I just might have to score an upper in one of those calibers.

120mm,

The 50 Beowulf ain't even up to par with the pistol round, aka 500 S&W. The Smith can be loaded to better than 50 ksi, while the Beowulf is limited to ~ 38 ksi due to it's severely rebated rim and correspondingly weak web. This equates to roughly equal ballistics between the two when the Smith operates from a 8" (or was it a 10" whatever the stock S&W revolver barrel length is) barrel and the Beowulf is running out of a 16" barrel. At least that is what was discovered over a chronograph. Both rifle and pistol shooting 334gr and 420gr projectiles. I do believe however that the 500 S&W brass would live longer than the 50 Beowulf brass at the level of ballistic performance exhibited in the aforementioned test ie the Beowulf brass was being pushed very hard.

I found the "thick skinned" comments extremely comic! The truth is that a "thick skin" is almost never necessary on these forums, as the comments made about me are SO FAR OFF BASE that they are in reality extremely funny! Heck I even help these guys out by using the handle I do, the hecklers gave it to me afterall.

Thank you for you input on this thread by the way.

AC

you can by a 25 wssm for around 700, a 458 will cost you 850+, or the 6.8 for less than 500. not sure about the 50 wulf but cabelas has them. But if its legal a RRA 5.56/223/223 wylde 1-8 twist will serve you well, you can shoot bullets to 80 grains in them and the light pills shoot just fine.
I have 223's of 1-8, 1-9, 1/12 and the 55's shoot just as well or better in the 8 twist.
BTW, I have taken many, many of our 85-125 pound whitetails with the 223 and 55 gr soft points.
RR

Ok AC of AR:

What AR is chambered in the 500 SW?? What are the speeds you get out of the 500 SW in the barrels it comes in?

Then compare to the speeds you get out of the AR based rifles of the 50 Beowulf. Pressure is not an issue at all until the Beowulf round is slower than the 500SW IE less performance.

Now I"ll take this with a grain of salt, assuming I'm wrong and your 500 SW can run a 275 grain bullet at over 2200 fps?? Having not yet fired 375s from the 50 BW, I can't quite comment other than that 1700 seems like a reachable speed.

Pressure wise, if I can net the same or more speed at less pressure its always a big plus. As to brass life, I've run some loads in the 50 BW that appear "hot" by all external signs, the primer pockets have held so far and the brass has been loaded right at 10 times with no issues so far.

One thing to look at when comparing-- are you using the best powder for each round to reach speed and lower pressures. Have to be comparing apples to apples. When I started with 275s I was shooting the wrong powder and though very accurate my 275s were not much over 1800 fps. Go to a correct powder and gain over 400 fps and get less pressure signs.

I"m always ready to be corrected though. (Don't tell my wife that I"d accept being wrong)

I also cannot say that I"ve sectioned a 50 BW case yet to see how "weak" it all looks.

RR-- have shot 52s in a 6.5 twist and they still do fine. Just got through shooting a good group of 52s the weekend in a standing match in a 7 twist, again just fine.

Jeff

Rost,

The 500 S&W wasn't on an AR platform, it was a Smith & Wesson revolver, I think it was actually a 10" barrel. Regarding loads I have no clue excepth that the revolver was shooting handloads or the owners creation in 334gr and 420gr flavors. The 50 Beowulf was shooting factor 334gr loads I believe (the cartridges came out of a factory box) and some handloads with 420gr cast slugs. The two cartridges were within 30 fps of each other when shot over the same chronograph.

What powder are you using with the 275gr pills to drive them at 2200 fps? What pressure signs should I look out for with the 50 Beowulf (if I get one I would like to know what I should be looking for)?

Thanks,
AC

Lil gun for the light bullets so far and I'm only in starting stages. H4198 is super but slow but IMR 4198 has a chance. There may also be a few others.

The AR shows pressure best by ejector marks. Extractor marks are iffy. And primer evidence is leary at best, possibly attached to strange extractor marks all due to gas port sizing and carrier weights. If you get ejector marks you have brass flow and thats a sign of pressure.

Jeff

BTW what were those speeds in teh comparison you were quoting? I don't know squat about the 500 but I can do some realistic stuff on teh 50 comparisons.

Post,

Thanks for the replies with regard to powders and pressure signs.

The velocities were (to the best of my memory):

335 gr:

50 Beowulf ~ 1750 fps
500 S&W ~ 1720 fps

420 gr
50 Beowulf ~ 1520 fps
500 S&W ~ 1540 fps

Some of the 50 Beowulf brass was showing a concentric ring all the way around the web, which I was told was due to excessive pressure. Does that sound right?

AC

I'm getting around 2000 with 275 Barnes and 1800 with 325's outta my Beowulf. I can get the about the same from my S&W 500. No pressure indicators on any of them. Either would do the job on anything walking around in this millenium. Good case life is a bonus but not my determining factor for cartridge selection. Particularly when specialty cartridges are considered and I consider both the Beowulf and Smith 500 in that niche.

Dang, I'm impressed with the 500 now in a handgun. Still won't quite touch the 50 though, but whats 100-200 fps difference in speed really. Though gained through more pressure from what I gleaned.

I don't think you can gauge pressure by that ring-- it can just as easily come from a bit of a sloppy chamber on the 50. Just depends. IF its pressure by flowing the brass that much you should have other flow signs like an ejector mark or smear on the head of the brass. IF it goes along with that then it may well be pressure.

Again the results can be skewed just depending on choices of loads etc....

Note that I started with 275s that were about 300 fps slower than RickyD, and once I hit the right powder I"m about 200 fps faster. Of course same can be done with the handgun too.

BTW on the ring-- if you were to measure it sized and then fired with a precise micrometer then expansion in that area immediately above the slope to the rebated rim may be a telltale sign.

But just because its rebated doesn't mean it can't stand pressure either. And I've actually seen more busted locking lugs on the 223 ARs than anything else(but to note this is skewed because I see tons of those bolts and very few different bolts)

All in all I"m impressed with the 500 now that I know more. Not sure that a heavy big pistol is for me but wouldn't mind shooting it a few times to compare to my 329PD anyway.

Jeff

Jeff,
I've got the 10.5" barrel on my 500. It is a heavy gun but with 275's the perceived recoil for me is much less than many other guns I own. I've got over 2100 fps out of 275's and just quit there but I typically load them to around 1900. It's an accurate load and I see little reason to go much over that. Factory is around 1600.

Heavy as it is, it's very steady for offhand shooting. You just can't hold it all day deciding if you want to fire one or not. Get it up, on target and let'er fly. Actually, what I considered was a silly marketing ploy in the sling and swivels, is a great way to shoot these monsters. I let the sling out as far as it will go and let it give the gun some support when it's taunt.

As much as I like my 500, the 460 may be the best overall for hunting most critters. But I'm pretty indecisive some times so I may have to keep them both! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I"ve used that sling theory a bunch with a couple of old contenders at times!! Works great.

wish I"d got a 24 inch beowulf tube before he quit making em in 24 inch.... Just to see about ballistics.

Jeff