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The nation of Israel ceased to exist by A.D. 73, yet Biblical prophecy requires the nation of Israel to exist before the return of Christ. No nation that ceased to exist in ancient times has ever been reestablished in modern times, accept for Israel on May 14, 1948.
I believe God used Hitler to reestablish Israel just as He had used the Pharaoh of Egypt to create the nation of Israel. It took Hitler's atrocities against Jews to motivate millions of them to say "Never Again" and to abandon their lives in nations around the world and pour into a war zone with the intent to live there or die there as Israelites.
In WWI Hitler miraculously survived on the battlefield in such obvious fashion that he was convinced it was the work of divine providence. I believe he was right, but it wasn't for his benefit, but to ultimately fulfill prophecy. Hitler also miraculously survived more than 27 assassination attempts from 1934 to 1944. I believe God's plan was for Hitler to suffer such defeat and fear that he would take his own life.
During the invasion of Normandy the bad weather fooled the Nazis into letting their guard down so much so that many of the top leaders were away from the coast and Hitler was knocked out by sleeping pills with orders not to awaken him. Hitler's character, which had been instrumental in forming the Third Reich and in its early victories was a military disaster when on the defense, so much so that the allies communicated to the resistance that they did not want Hitler assassinated.
Many see all this as just coincidence, nevertheless, the result was ancient Biblical prophecy fulfilled in the lifetimes of some on this thread. So much for free will and the power of prayer. Biblical prophecy pretty much trumps all of that. Selecting someone God knows will embrace hate and megalomania for His purpose doesn't override that person's free will. Fulfillment of biblical prophecy assures us that the Bible is what it claims to be. What about the free will of the 6 million that were murdered? Was it God's will that they perish in a most heinous way to fulfill prophecy? Did those that were murdered petition the lord with prayer for a different fate? What about their free will? For who is Biblical prophecy for anyway? If for Man, couldn't a merciful God have done something else to achieve the same effect with a lot less mayhem? Just some questions that a God given brain would ask.
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I look at the Holocaust differently than Mclorry, I'm not sure it was in God's plan, but who am I to say really. I do think that through the course of eternity and in infinite intelligence God can turn the action of one evil man into something that fits God's purpose. We may never see his plan come to fruition, nor my children or theirs or theirs times 10 to the 12th. But, thats not important even though it would be gratifying. I'm in for the long haul, passed my last breath, if he'll have me.
GOd Bless,
MM
Tell me the odds of putting grease on the same pancake? I Know they are there, well ice and house slippers. -Kawi
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What about the free will of the 6 million that were murdered? Was it God's will that they perish in a most heinous way to fulfill prophecy? Did those that were murdered petition the lord with prayer for a different fate? What about their free will? Many Jews saw the signs and used their free will to get out of Germany, however, the exercise of free will doesn't guarantee an outcome. As for prayer, a person's free will is not denied if they don't get the answer they want. A parent not letting their young child play with power tools doesn't deny that child their free will, only their free action. As for this notion of murder, all lives belong to God and He sets the number of each person's days. By the definition of some on this thread, God setting the number of a person's days is murder. If so, that leads to the absurd notion that God has murdered everyone. You can't judge God's actions as if He were a man. For who is Biblical prophecy for anyway? If for Man, couldn't a merciful God do something else to achieve the same effect with a lot less mayhem? Fulfillment of Biblical prophecy demonstrates the authenticity of scripture being the word of God. The fulfillment of many OT prophecies by Jesus demonstrates His authenticity as the Christ. "And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts," -- 2 Peter 1:19 As for God doing "something else to achieve the same effect with a lot less mayhem", the answer is no. There is a perfectly coherent explanation for the mayhem, but you would have to apply your God given brain to long hours of study. What are the odds of that?
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"For who is Biblical prophecy for anyway? If for Man, couldn't a merciful God have done something else to achieve the same effect with a lot less mayhem?
Just some questions that a God given brain would ask."
I confess to having always been to self-centered to spend much time being concerned about past events that I couldn't relate to my own self. That's a failing I'm aware of and have to constantly battle with.[ Since "self" can't defeat "self", I have to rely on a Higher Power for assistance]
But...... a similar question that I have struggled with is is the same one posed to Jesus regarding the suffering of children born with handicaps.
His answer in the bible was too enigmatic to satisfy me so I asked Him to dumb it down to my level of understanding. I'm not claiming a special enlightenment, but what I got is this:
All the things we see that seem to be in contradiction to the nature of a Creator that cares about His creatures, MUST NOT BE VERY IMPORTANT IN THE GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS, BUT WE ARE SUPPOSED TO ACT AS THOUGH THEY ARE.
That's when I discovered that a man's questions will never end.
We always wind up with,"WHY".
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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"Fulfillment of Biblical prophecy demonstrates the authenticity of scripture being the word of God. The fulfillment of many OT prophecies by Jesus demonstrates His authenticity as the Christ. "And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts," -- 2 Peter 1:19 "
BULLSCHITT!
I'm no bible scholar, but if you're gonna quote it, you should do it right.
The bibles I've read have the writer saying something like this:[from memory,so it's not word for word]
"We who were with Him on the mountain have the words of the prophets MADE MORE CERTAIN............ .
He was clearly saying that though they were aware of the prophecies concerning Jesus, and had seen Him in his Glory, they had even better evidence of His Deity, and it was available to all of us.
He could ONLY be referring to the work of the Holy Spirit DIRECTLY on a man's conscience.
What bible did you quote from?
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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6 million lives sacrificed is hard for you to reconcile because you are just a man viewing the event through a man's eyes and understanding. Those 6 million Jews, though dead, are still alive in the presences of God and still subject to both His judgment and His mercy. God is working out the far greater plan of salvation. Stop judging God's actions as if He were just a man.
I judge God through my life 's tribulations. I should say I believe those things happened to the Jews and Job... and Job was righteous in his reaction and a good example. But it reminds me of our current politicians that don't let a tragedy go to waste, thinking they could embellish it to give glory to God. No one needs to tell me how chit can happen fast and my response may have not been the most righteous at the end... if God wanted glory he didn't get it... at first I abased myself as if it was all my fault... eventually it got so bad I told God to lay the [bleep] off of me and mine... the tribulations ceased, some things returned like with Job. Whether God figured I got some message or just abandoned me, I really don't care... Each Jew and child of Job were not some statistic in a lesson or prophesy. Kent
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Well if I be, it is not anyone else's thoughts or opinions that matter, and if I be not, then it is only a concern of mine. I have grown tired of folks saying stuff like, "How can you call yourself a Christian and do ___________?" Fill in the blank with anything you like - I've heard it all. I did what God said for me to do. I called on him to save me. I believed on His Son, and received His work on Calvary. I have trusted in the shed blood of a perfect man to cover my wickedness. If that be not enough, then I'll take my place in an eternal lake of fire while still trusting in the blood of Jesus Christ my Saviour. 
Last edited by the_shootist; 02/14/13. Reason: spelling
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)
Brother Keith
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I have no heroes, but after reading your posts for a number of years, I'll say that if preachers ain't barred from heaven on general principles,............. you'll make the cut. 
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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"Fulfillment of Biblical prophecy demonstrates the authenticity of scripture being the word of God. The fulfillment of many OT prophecies by Jesus demonstrates His authenticity as the Christ. "And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts," -- 2 Peter 1:19 "
BULLSCHITT!
I'm no bible scholar, but if you're gonna quote it, you should do it right.
The bibles I've read have the writer saying something like this:[from memory,so it's not word for word]
"We who were with Him on the mountain have the words of the prophets MADE MORE CERTAIN............ .
He was clearly saying that though they were aware of the prophecies concerning Jesus, and had seen Him in his Glory, they had even better evidence of His Deity, and it was available to all of us.
He could ONLY be referring to the work of the Holy Spirit DIRECTLY on a man's conscience.
What bible did you quote from?
I quoted 2 Peter 1:19 from the English Standard Version (�2001). Verse 18 reads "we ourselves heard this very voice borne from heaven, for we were with him on the holy mountain."Here are some other translations of 2 Peter 1:18-19 New International Version (�1984) "We ourselves heard this voice that came from heaven when we were with him on the sacred mountain. And we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts." King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.) "And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount. We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:" Young's Literal Translation "and this voice we -- we did hear, out of heaven borne, being with him in the holy mount. And we have more firm the prophetic word, to which we do well giving heed, as to a lamp shining in a dark place, till day may dawn, and a morning star may arise -- in your hearts;"
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If one believes that you, the essential "you", come into being upon sucking that first breath of air outside your mother's womb (or at some indeterminate point in the womb before that), that you walk around for a while and then "you" disappear forever when electrical activity in the brain ceases, then the events that happen to these bodies while they walk around is of supreme importance. You will fight wars, kill people, hurt them, do everything you can to enhance this body, its pleasures and longevity.
If one believes that the essential you is "something" that existed long before your little body was a gleam in your father's eye, that ithis essential you is placed into this body for some reason that, quite literally, God only knows, and that the essential you survives after this body wastes away - which it is 100% guaranteed to do - then what happens while "you" walk around in this body might seem important at the time but in the course of eternity (a concept no human mind can really grasp) is really just a very tiny grain of sand on an endless beach.
My understanding of free will is that it is your free will to look at things from either point of view.
And to answer the OP, no, I'm not a card carrying Christian, at least I gather that most of the official Christians would say I am not because I couldn't care less about the dogma and believing what I am "required" to believe. I'm more a Taoist who really, really, really likes the words of a Jewish carpenter who lived just a little while ago (as eternity goes), and also thinks an Indian prince had some good things to say as well.
Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
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Well if I be, it is not anyone else's thoughts or opinions that matter, and if I be not, then it is only a concern of mine. I have grown tired of folks saying stuff like, "How can you call yourself a Christian and do ___________?" Fill in the blank with anything you like - I've heard it all. I did what God said for me to do. I called on him to save me. I believed on His Son, and received His work on Calvary. I have trusted in the shed blood of a perfect man to cover my wickedness. If that be not enough, then I'll take my place in an eternal lake of fire while still trusting in the blood of Jesus Christ my Saviour. Always enjoy when you chime in on these posts. Clear and no nonsense. Kind of like a book I've read. God Bless, MM
Tell me the odds of putting grease on the same pancake? I Know they are there, well ice and house slippers. -Kawi
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This is no small matter.
Which is the "trump ace"; the words of prophets. or the "something" which makes his words more certain?
Which better fits the message of Jesus concerning the little children?
Which places a premium on intelligence and reading comprehension, and which opens the door to EVERYONE who will open his mind to Jesus and his heart to the Holy Spirit ?
Which lends itself to a "special cadre" of priests and teachers, and which makes a man his own "priest"?
As I said, it is no small thing.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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6 million lives sacrificed is hard for you to reconcile because you are just a man viewing the event through a man's eyes and understanding. Those 6 million Jews, though dead, are still alive in the presences of God and still subject to both His judgment and His mercy. God is working out the far greater plan of salvation. Stop judging God's actions as if He were just a man.
I judge God through my life 's tribulations. I should say I believe those things happened to the Jews and Job... and Job was righteous in his reaction and a good example. But it reminds me of our current politicians that don't let a tragedy go to waste, thinking they could embellish it to give glory to God. No one needs to tell me how chit can happen fast and my response may have not been the most righteous at the end... if God wanted glory he didn't get it... at first I abased myself as if it was all my fault... eventually it got so bad I told God to lay the [bleep] off of me and mine... the tribulations ceased, some things returned like with Job. Whether God figured I got some message or just abandoned me, I really don't care... Each Jew and child of Job were not some statistic in a lesson or prophesy. Kent God had been protecting Job and gave him great success in family and in material things way beyond what others received because God was pleased with Job even pointing him out to Satan. Satan thought he could make Job renounce God if God removed His special protection, which He did except for Job's life. Satan tormented Job but couldn't break him; it's what Satan does. God restored Job's family and material things. Being Satan is still at large and his focus is on the saved its likely God had nothing to do with your tribulations. Maybe at the point of you nearly committing the unforgivable sin God chased Satan away from you, not wanting to lose you to Satan. God may have been waiting for you to use the Name that is above all names to bind Satan and chase him away yourself. Job didn't have that option as that Name had not yet been given among men. Put on the full armor of God and learn how to use the sword. Satan will look for easier prey.
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This is no small matter.
Which is the "trump ace"; the words of prophets. or the "something" which makes his words more certain?
Which better fits the message of Jesus concerning the little children?
Which places a premium on intelligence and reading comprehension, and which opens the door to EVERYONE who will open his mind to Jesus and his heart to the Holy Spirit ?
Which lends itself to a "special cadre" of priests and teachers, and which makes a man his own "priest"?
As I said, it is no small thing. As Paul indicated he was all things to all men that he might save some. All that's needed for salvation is childlike faith that every human can do. However, pride in one's intellect or accomplishments prevents many from humbling themselves and accepting the foolishness of the message preached. God wanting to save all provides a means by which some of the proud can see how foolish their pride is so they accept the foolishness of the message preached as a child and be saved. Fulfilled prophesy plays it's part in opening the eyes of the proud.
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You responded with some crackpot idea about the speed of light no doubt from one of your revered Phd's. And who would you say your idea come from?
"Only Christ is the fullness of God's revelation."
Everyday Hunter
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Thanks for the answer.
Since focusing on a light in a dark place requires our attention to be in ONE direction, that seems to me to be regulating all the various prophecies to a lesser role.
I agree that once the "morning star rises", that Morning Star may reveal things about prophecies not noticed before.
But I don't believe that Morning Star ever intended to play second fiddle to "ink stains dried upon some line", no matter how "inspired" the writer.
But........... I'm a "live and let live" type of guy.I just post what works for me.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Whats your thoughts?
Is baptism required for salvation?
Is tithing required for salvation?
Finally can you lose salvation or are you once saved always saved?
Thanks No No No and yes You questions indicate that you haven't read nor understood the bible. Ed Thanks for the help I appreciate you taking the time the time to respond.
Will Munny: It's a hell of a thing, killing a man. Take away all he's got and all he's ever gonna have.
The Schofield Kid: Yeah, well, I guess they had it coming.
Will Munny: We all got it coming, kid.
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You responded with some crackpot idea about the speed of light no doubt from one of your revered Phd's. And who would you say your idea come from? My ideas on physics come from all the evidence accumulated over the years. I know you can name a PhD who�ll back up your 6000 year old earth ideas but I�m sure I can find a few Jews who like bacon. That don�t make it kosher though.
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Religious people love taking cheap shots at science. The same science that makes it possible for them to mentally masturbate at their computer all day or that has saved their lives or a loved ones through modern medicine. They go on and on that something can't come from nothing. Yet this is how they explain the existence of their god. He just was. It's really pathetic to watch these people brag about choosing ignorance. Not to surprising considering their entire life they're read one book and completely missed it's main message. If Jesus was real he'd put a boot up there a$$ for being such aholes.
"He is one of the Legion lost."
"You care for nothing but shooting, dogs, and rat- catching, and you will be a disgrace to yourself and all your family."
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I'm supposed to fear Satan Where did you learn that? Jesus's story is simple, inspirational, thought provoking and speaks to an inner spirit. Jesus makes some claims that would get someone institutionalized today. He said, "Heaven and earth will pass away, but My Words will not." He said, "I am going to be killed and three days later I am going to come back to life." He said, referring to the God they believed in "If you have seen Me you have seen the Father." If He was not Lord He was a lunatic. By the way the most documented fact of history prior to the printing press is the life, death, and resurrection of Jesus. Since you claim that Hitler was doing God's work crushing the Jews, it follows that the US military was actually fighting against God when they fought the Germans in WWII. Curious that with Hitler on the side of God, how in God's name was Hitler defeated? The nation of Israel ceased to exist by A.D. 73, yet Biblical prophecy requires the nation of Israel to exist before the return of Christ. No nation that ceased to exist in ancient times has ever been reestablished in modern times, accept for Israel on May 14, 1948. I believe God used Hitler to reestablish Israel just as He had used the Pharaoh of Egypt to create the nation of Israel. It took Hitler's atrocities against Jews to motivate millions of them to say "Never Again" and to abandon their lives in nations around the world and pour into a war zone with the intent to live there or die there as Israelites. In WWI Hitler miraculously survived on the battlefield in such obvious fashion that he was convinced it was the work of divine providence. I believe he was right, but it wasn't for his benefit, but to ultimately fulfill prophecy. Hitler also miraculously survived more than 27 assassination attempts from 1934 to 1944. I believe God's plan was for Hitler to suffer such defeat and fear that he would take his own life. During the invasion of Normandy the bad weather fooled the Nazis into letting their guard down so much so that many of the top leaders were away from the coast and Hitler was knocked out by sleeping pills with orders not to awaken him. Hitler's character, which had been instrumental in forming the Third Reich and in its early victories was a military disaster when on the defense, so much so that the allies communicated to the resistance that they did not want Hitler assassinated. Many see all this as just coincidence, nevertheless, the result was ancient Biblical prophecy fulfilled in the lifetimes of some on this thread. Absolutely right. What the devil intends for evil God uses for good. If not for Hitler and the holocaust there would be no Israel today. All in all this thread was what I expected it to be- A lot of chaff. But I was pleasantly surprised with how much wheat was here too. I especially enjoyed Dons99's timely scriptures.
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