I'm perfectly content to let Jesus decide � not all the "I am" claimants nor any of the self-appointed "you ain't" judgers.

How many ways into the kingdom of God are there? Here too, I'm perfectly content to let only Him decide. I'm pretty sure that others' opinions don't overrule His decrees regarding the matter.

I don't recall that He was ever reticent about either matter, either.

But those are just a couple of my opinions.

I am. When I don't act like it, I still am, by the grace of God. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.

Trick question.

Only way.

When you eventually get to the Pearly Gates, you had better hope that JC is not wearing a taqiyah!

Count me and mine in.

Sadly, this is bound to happen...




When really, the way to Heaven according to Jesus himself is this....




Relationship. It's all about relationship.

Jesus answered, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

Jesus answered and said unto him, "Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God."

For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

Only thru Grace.

And obedience.

I"try"to obey because I'm saved,not to be saved.

The greatest thing I ever learned is that my salvation isn't based on me.

For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast. Eph 2:8-9

"Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you." (John 15:13�14)

That is why we get along so well.

A young priest told the Pope:" Father, I have good news and bad news."

The Pope asked for the good news first.

"Jesus has returned to Earth!"

"And the bad", asked the Pope?

"He landed in Salt Lake City"!

Three verses later."These things I command you,that you love one another."(John 15:17)

No arguement from me that we should keep the commandments,but my salvation is based on my faith in Jesus's sacrifice for me,not in my obediance.

two elderly gentlemen were sitting around chatting -

the older of the 2 - pushing 90 yrs of age , looks over at the other guy and calmly proclaims.

"I do not know when my time will come but i'm getting afraid that all my freinds that have passed away and have gone to be with our Lord in Heaven , may be starting to wonder."

the other gentalman looks over and asks- " Wonder what?"

he proclaims - "If I don't show up pretty soon - I'm sure they will all think ,I went the other way! "

what you mean works won't get me in?

ML

Oh man! Ain't that the truth!?

What difference does it make?

When you eventually get to the Pearly Gates, you had better hope that JC is not wearing a taqiyah! [/quote]

No problem, a matter of faith!

Apostle Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit:
"So then, my beloved, just as you have always obeyed not as in my presence only, but now much more in my absence, work out your salvation with fear and trembling;"
Philippians 2:12

Apostle John wrote by the Holy Spirit:
"For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments; and His commandments are not burdensome." 1 John 5:3

Apostle Paul wrote by the Holy Spirit:
"If any one thinks he is a prophet or spiritual, let him recognize that the things which I write to you are the Lord's commandments." 1 Corinthians 14:37

What Part of The New Testament is it we don't have to obey because we are under Grace?

I don't think he was making that point, Ringman.

I think he was saying that Grace is WHY we were saved. I don't think he'd argue with what is expected of us once that Grace is extended to us...

Loaded post.

Do you obey Matthew 6:6 ??

If Kenny is saved, I'll happily spend an eternity in hell.

I like those odds.

I've been a christian for 31 years. I'm glad I did and not going back. It's great being a christian and is much different than what the world portrays us .

Those in Christ's sheepfold are Christians. Those outside of it are not. The Good Shepherd knows his own.

All of these posts by Christians are very true. However, we must also look at what Jesus said about those non-believers who inhabit most churches.

Mt 7:22 Many will say to me on that day, �Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?�
23 Then I will tell them plainly, �I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!�

They're the ones who depended on their works to get into heaven instead of Jesus' grace. They've never put their faith totally in Christ to save them. To repeat a scripture in an earlier post:
Eph 2:8-9 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith�and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God not by works, so that no one can boast.

You MUST depend on grace for salvation. Those who ignore this passage in Ephesians and try to work their way in are the ones who will bitterly cry out "Lord Lord".

Yes, the willing doing of good works (e.g., helping the needy, etc.) is a mark of sanctification, not the means of acquiring it.

He already decided and paid for it with blood.

yep,..ticking time bomb...

A former friend of mine heard that one sign of genius is a plethora of projects left unfinished, so he began a plethora of projects that he intended to leave unfinished.

That never impressed me as a sign of genius.

As ashamed as I am, this is me. I need to be a better example, but our countries condition makes it very difficult for me.

KEN good post.
I will not quote the good book but I think that I might be ok.

Hope a lot of others are as well.

Happily, a member of Our Lord's original church. Delighted to be Catholic.

And, Yup, WORKS. Faith and Works are inseparable

Blessings,

Steve

I am not and I am perfectly content.

All I know is that as a human, I'm a sinner. I pray a lot for forgiveness and some day that the grace of God bestowed upon me at my baptism will allow to enter the eternal kingdom.

Well said.

Im a christian and proud of it.

Pride cometh before the fall.

I've studied a variety of worldviews. After lots of careful thinking, I have concluded that the Christian worldview is the one that best explains the readily observable facts about the universe in which we live. So of course I'm a Christian. For me, its not just blind faith. I arrived at my faith for very good, rational reasons. What I find incomprehensible is why someone would want Christianity to be false.

Count me in.

"you go to heaven for the climate, hell for the company"

100%

To fundamental Jews and Muslims I probably am.

To fundamental evangelicals, I definitely not.

To me, I don't spend too much time thinking about it, much less worrying about it.

Get educated, Rancho. There is no company in hell.

The old west Texas high school principal who came in with a nickel size melanoma on his lip didn't worry about it either, but he was a christian. Now he is "healed" - of everything.

The only reason I can think of why someone would want Christianity to be false is because they think they'd give up too much fun stuff to "be a Christian". That's certainly what I used to think.
Never been able to convey what is gained. Maybe that should be a new thread topic- "What is gained by being a believer?"

Or..

So start a new thread, Fireball. I give you my $0.02.

This is why
John 3:19-21 And this is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone practicing evil hates the light and does not come to the light, lest his deeds should be exposed. 21 But he who does the truth comes to the light, that his deeds may be clearly seen, that they have been done in God.�

while i like the esoteric, mystical events of a god impregnating a virgin, then the crucifixation, death and resurrection as wonderful events to energize the masses, what i really like is the Teachings of Jesus. in his example he never married, or had kids, or refrained from eating out of other's gardens.

Christians are a diverse lot, that's pretty much a military certainty.

By the Grace of God I'm saved.

If i say yes..... Will i be persecuted????????

Hebrews 10:29-31 Of how much worse punishment, do you suppose, will he be thought worthy who has trampled the Son of God underfoot, counted the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified a common thing, and insulted the Spirit of grace? 30 For we know Him who said, �Vengeance is Mine, I will repay,� says the Lord. And again, �The Lord will judge His people.� 31 It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.

I am so torn. I prayed last night that I be more Christian today.

Okay, I will.

Good luck.

Christians tell the truth. Everlasting life, Firefly 2.

I said I would be MORE Christian...not a perfect Christian.

If humans were ruling life, two weeks after the meek inherited the earth, the sonsabitches'd have it back.

edited to add �

� and ya'd hafta be one of the most thoroughly rottenest sonsabitches to be anywhere near the front of the line.

The older I get (and the more I wallow in, recognize, mourn my own sin) the more I come to appreciate the fact that many I expect to see in the New Heavens & New Earth will not be there, and that many I don't expect to see, will be.

God's grace and the work of His HS in calling His people unto Himself is far greater than my imagination and I am increasingly comforted by that fact.

I struggled with my faith(Catholic) until a few years ago when I decided I wanted no part in any version of man's God.


I'll try to be the most honest and trustworthy person I can, help others when possible and be there for family and friends in need.


If that somehow dooms me to an eternity of hell....,well,...God can go [bleep] himself.

Without the virgin birth, crucifixion, and resurrection, the teachings of Jesus are meaningless. If you don't believe in the resurrection, you're not a Christian at all so his teachings are worthless to you.

Romans 10:9 That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved.

Or..is funny

If you meant that you want to be more Christ-like, then I agree. However, if you meant you want to be more saved, then I don't agree. There are no degrees of salvation. It's either all or nothing.

Okay with me. Not the God part, but your decisions, whatever they may be.

As are your decisions or anyone else's.

This is not directed at anyone in particular but those of you that think hell is eternal are gravely mistaken, all things created have to have an end and hell is created therefore will have an end.......don't know when or how long but when that happens Satan and his followers will cease to exist.

Sorry for the bad news..

Same must go for heaven, earth, & God's people then? You didn't mention that?

I reckon it was worded wrong. Angelic would probably be a better term.

I am sorry you have been so displeased with what you have seen in The Church. I certainly understand for I have seen hypocrisy not only in the institutions which claim Christ's name but in my own heart.

I must point out and with all due respect that your own practice is a version of man's god... Just yours rather than that of Church tradition or Holy Scripture or whatever...

i think this is the point that you and i fundamentally diverge from each other. and i pray you're not wrong, much as you pray i'm not wrong?

so, the Teachings of Jesus. that's all we have. all the other Majickal stuff is just that. ya know a mere human can't kilt a god, don't you? a human killing a god. get real. let's continue to be friends and in support of us other, but let's wake up. Majic is majic. we humans are organic beings with a conscious content or potential.
2 stranded DNA only allows so much understanding. 2-4 to 12 DNA stands of DNA allows a further understanding.

�And they shall go forth and look
Upon the corpses of the men
Who have transgressed against Me.
For their worm does not die,
And their fire is not quenched.Isaiah 66

I am....and I ask Gods help to continually make me a better one.

I AM NOT perfect though.....even if my wife tells me I am.

I don't think we're far off in these things, other than I find it hard to believe it's an accident.

I've always pictued you with little wings,playing a harp,so I'd say your doing well!

Don't know about angelic, but you've always struck me as a pretty good guy,for whatever thats worth.

Thanks. I say angelic, 'cause sometimes you have to reconcile the fact that you can be hard and still be a servant of God.

Neither do I.



I believe there is something greater out there but I'm not going to let man and his common theme of fear make me believe his version.


If I'm wrong, I've accepted the consequences.

Do you believe in God's infinite love but not in eternal damnation?

Don't want to be accused of being a Bible thumper but to be fair.
Luke 21:33

so it was a trick question

Believe vs. who's going to up vs. down

in a sense to be seperated from God would be eternal so I believe in both in that sense but hell is for a time and will be destroyed at some point.
I'm saying hell is not eternal because nothing of satan is eternal.

Nothing wrong with that, it's probably close to the truth... whatever the truth is... no man can claim to know for sure... and there's nothing wrong with that either.

Kent

Might be getting you "Heaven" and "heavens" mixed up...

Yep. If you study up on angels you will find they are never mentioned as feminine or having wings. There was a reason the first thing the angel told the shepherds was "Fear not".

Being dead forever is eternal damnation, according to Dr Arnold Murray of Shepards Chapel.

I'd like to meet you some day Mr. Howell. You seem to be a man of great integrity and that's something I have a great deal of admiration for. May God Bless You and your family.

no I'm not......

Our souls were created, yet we're to believe they are immortal.

I have, he is. Make the trip, it is worth it.

Keep in mind the difference between eternal (of which only God is) and immortal, of which are the angels and our souls.

Not, but wish I were.

To be clear, I have nothing against anyone who believes in a specific higher being and I really hope they find the eternal salvation they're looking for. Whatever it may be.


I've just chosen a different path. Right or wrong.

His torment will... �Then He will also say to those on the left hand, �Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: Mat 25:41

We're basically on the same page. IMHO, a man's religous beliefs are the most personal thing in the world. Your actions mean everything... your words nothing...unless your words discourage somebody else from doing the right thing. I am way too small to judge.

Fair enough. But what if God has tried to communicate to us so we would know him. What would that communication look like?

I respect that tremendously.

Scott, some angels were described as having wings, e.g., "Above it stood the seraphims: each one had six wings ..." Isaiah 6:2

Easy thing to fix.

Doesn't sound like a different path to me. It just sounds like you trust "Him" or "It" more than people. Shiit, ain't that the way it's supposed to be?

"Too small to judge." Is a fundamentally crappy philosophy.

I think I'm going to go ahead and bow out of this thread.
I am not going to change anyone's mind...certainly not trying to
I don't know why I let myself get sucked into these religious threads.....

Luke 21:33 States, Heaven and earth shall pass away: but my words shall not pass away.

That in and of itself leads me to believe that Hell, is perhaps forever.

Okay...you judge other people. It's not my gig.

When the lecturer said "Where we now stand will be under the sea in a billion years," a man in the audience jumped to his feet �

"How soon?" he asked in a quivery voice.

"A billion years."

"Whew!" the man sat down. "I thought you said in a million years."

If God's gift to man is eternal life.....then those who fail to accept that gift do die.

Or, so I was taught in Sabbath School.

Tom, you are a great participant. I have much to learn from people such as yourself. I can tell you are no stranger to the Word.

That's what my heart tells me.


But I'm rolling the dice just as much as anyone else.

Amazing !

The expressed belief that God created mankind;
- wants mankind to be close to Him, for eternity;
- has given the simple means for achieving that closeness, and;
- has given clear instructions for living as He wishes

- then brings about such degrees of contention, disagreement, rancor, anger, and frustration among His creatures;

- and causes us to create denominations, rituals, hoops and hurdles across the simple path to Him.

Such foolishness must be proof of something about mankind. How could even the smartest and most experienced among us begin to think that we could define "man's God" (in whatever variations we could muster)?

How could we begin to think that our human reasoning and decisions about His nature, and whether or not we accept or reject what He offers, would affect Him and His plan in any way - except to disappoint Him when we do not draw near?

Some of us argue so well and mightily. However, no matter how many of whatever we think can reside on the head of any theological pin, His truth seems too simple for many of us to grasp. Even given that simplicity, some of us have to proclaim loudly our rejection and provide our "facts" about why we reject His offering - as if He does not know, and as if he cares, why we reject Him.

Thus, in my humble view, the role of faith as determinant. Keep the Faith.

All I want to know is if Christ made His first appearance 40 years ago would we all be wearing little electric chairs on chains around our necks?


Glad it was 2000+ years ago. A cross looks much better than an electric above the bed. It would make it tough on vampires too, as anything can be made into a cross. Imagine trying to put together a few mini-electric chairs to keep the count away...

This is, itself, a judgement. Your argument is self-refuting.

Well said my friend, very well said.

If God has attempted to communicate to us then there is no roll of the dice. It is possible to know the truth.

Faith is important. I'm confident that more than a few have made it to the good place without giving a damn about what other people tell them to do.

probably more than those who believe through faith and submit to the Word, actually. Faith in the Word (Jesus) and the Truth (Jesus) ensures hope is not in vain. Jesus is the Word and the Truth will set you free (from death).

You can listen to your heart (flesh) or He who made it.

If one knows and understands right from wrong, good from bad then regardless of the choices he chooses to make, God had indeed attempted to and accomplished communication.

We will all die physically but not spiritually. The bible teachs that we will all be judged and our souls live forever either in Heaven (with God) or hell (seperation from God).

Mat 25:31 �When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, �Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

41 �Then He will also say to those on the left hand, �Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

No one has to accept another man's version of God... or even the manmade name God... understanding that what comes after this life is undefinable in language kinda puts it in perspective.

Kent

Actions speak louder than words. I'm afraid that many people don't realize that we ain't the only one's watching.

The Thief on the Cross was not saved by works, neither are we...

Jude 1:7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

What part of 'eternal' is so hard to understand?
God created angels and they are eternal.
God created man and we are eternal, in heaven or hell.

Sure we are.

I don't think anyone can be talked into faith. Those without faith will need more than another point of view.

Shut up, heathen.

They need to pray for the blessing of faith.

Excellent point, well worthy of � and entitled to � others' respect!

God won't like your decision � it's not one of His druthers � but He'll respect it.

He'd prefer to have you with Him, but He gave you free will to opt for the other course, so He'll honor your choice. He wants you to be with Him only if you want to be with Him. He gives us complete freedom to choose, as long as we're willing to take the consequences. He's not going to shanghai you. He could, but He won't. He runs no divine draft board.

Hebrews 11:6
But without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is, and that He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

I'll throw the wrench... the most Christian people I know wouldn't get caught talking about religion with the hard core holy rollers. I wouldn't either, 'cept I told God that I would do my part, and I know helping those that struggle with faith is the right thing to do.

1 Cor 12:3 No one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit.

I am a Christian.

Looks like Christ took away original thought with original sin.

No He just brought the truth. John 14:6
Jesus said to him, �I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me.

Yea, we are sheep and lean not on our own understanding, the way Zero voters did.

But Ken, in my way I am with him. Just because I chose not to define who God is from what others tell me doesn't mean I don't believe in him(undefined) or think about him and sometimes ask him for guidance.



I truly believe in something greater than myself and as odd as my relationship with him might seem to some of you, that's the way I've chosen.

God defined who He is, not us.

No one goes to God expect through Christ, but Christ is God, so you can't get to God without going through God?

Spewing scripture is funny stuff.

My pond was also slow to fill. My prayer is that someday soon yours will also fill. GW

rrroae, quite listening to others then and ask God to reveal Himself to you.
Hebrews 11:6 He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

And man told us the definition.



If God talks to me, I'll believe what he has to say. Not so much when man does it.

Father, Son, Holy Spirit... The TRINITY!

Speak of the Devil.

Good night fellas.


Whatever you believe, I hope it brings you happiness, comfort and fulfillment.

Good point. He was saved merely by a statement of faith in Jesus being who he claimed to be.

Bigbuck215



Your question reminds me of when I spent some time with a couple guys who were preparing a seminar. At the end of the second day I mentioned, "I want the men in every place to pray lifting holy hands without wrath and doubting."

They both began to attack. I didn't react in any kind of negative way and tried to answer their questions. The next day we got back together and one of the guys told me, "Yesterday I didn't ask you the correct question."
"What is the correct question?" I asked.
"The correct question is, Do I ever lift my hands when I pray?" he informed with penitence.

Are you asking because you are hoping to inspire me to love and good deeds?

Likewise...don't forget to thank whoever for whatever.

Frankly, does anybody think some would get pissed of at a person for being a Christian, or for having an attitude?

It's usually hypocrisy.

And medical science (which I can see, touch, and feel) teaches us that when the heart stops beating, and the lights go out, you're done. No more brain activity, no more "spirit", no more anything doing anything forever.

And your body rots. That, again, I can see and verify. And that pile of decomposing flesh isn't going on any trip to visit anybody or any being.

Show me a soul. What's it look like? I can show you a heart, and blood, and a brain. And I can show you what happens to them when you die. Not when you euphemistically "cease to exist in your current state on this planet", or some other flowery stuff. You die. And rot. And that's the cold hard reality of life and death.

The bible doesn't "teach" you anything, it merely makes you believe what somebody else wants you to believe. If you want to go that route, fine. By all means, have at it. But PLEASE don't tell me that I'm damned in eternity, or that I somehow haven't been sufficiently enlightened, or that you'll pray for me (expend those energies on somebody who believes that it will somehow do them some good, as I promise you that you are wasting your breath directing any of it in my direction).

Prove to me that any of it has happened, currently happens, or will happen. Until then, I'm in the isn't camp, and perfectly content.

And just to be clear, you never hear me starting a topic by telling them that they are doomed, or that they are less worthy because they don't choose to be a sheep, or that they are stupid for believing, or anything else. But yes, I'm getting quite sick of it always happening in the opposite direction. Stop preaching and being subtly passive aggressive in your constant attempts at "enlightening those who aren't able to see the way to salvation", you're not doing yourselves any favors.

This is a matter of a failure of the English language to convey the meaning of the original language. The word used for "say" means more like "sincerely say." Con artists, for example, can easily say that Jesus is Lord, but not do so by the Holy Spirit. Jesus himself said that many will even cast out devils by his name, but they are not of his fold and will be turned away.

He said, "No one comes to the Father except through me."

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God.

Perhaps Great Architect of the Universe?

For those who struggle with the "obedience" requirement of salvation, consider these three passages:


1 John 5:2-3

2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God, and keep his commandments.
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments and his commandments are not grievous.

1 Cor 16:22

If any man love not the Lord Jesus Christ, let him be Anath'ema, Maranath'a.

Heb 5:8-9
8 though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
9 and being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him;

Howdy all, I normally don't post because I type slow. Anywho, this is a fascinating thread and I enjoy seeing everyone's joy at accepting The Lords Grace. I'm a Christian and it took me years to wrap my mind around the concept that I don't get to God by any action I do, but by accepting His offer of Grace and having a loving relationship with Him. Turning away from sin and the pleasures of the world(drunkeness, porn, drugs) seem like a big deal but when you're free from them you feel so much better. Some are saying they believe in God but want to just be good and trust in themselves, just believing won't do it, the devil and demons believe in God but they won't be in heaven. Our works are filthy rags compared to the perfection of God( the original Greek translation for those rags are menstrual rags by the way) it is the sacrifice and grace that cover our sins and allow us to be save

Four preachers stood talking about this 'n' that and eventually got onto the matter of the best position to pray in.

"There's a reason," the first said, "that we call our knee caps our 'prayer bones.' Kneeling is the way to pray!"

"The Bible speaks often," the second said, "of falling on one's face before the Lord. That's absolute humility! So I can't think of a more appropriate way to pray."

"He's our Father," said the third, "and we're His children. I'm sure that He'd like nothing better than for us to lift our faces and hands to Him, His children looking up to Him as we pray."

The fourth said nothing until one of the others prodded him to offer his opinion.

"Well, I never given it much thought," he said, "but lookin' back, I think I done some o' my best prayin' when I was hangin' upside-down from a windmill."

He gave us a book, His message to you and me, so we would know the truth, and not have to listen to others or lean on our own understanding- it's called the Bible. His message is the same to all of us. What have you put forth for Him to give you your own message? He gave His son and offers you everlasting life for you to listen to His.

If I say no, will I be condemmed?

As this is open forum, and reading this is your choice, why does it bother you so much?

"And I saw the beast (the Antichrist) and the kings of the earth and their armies, assembled to make war against Him (Jesus) Who sat upon the horse, and against His army. And the beast was seized and with him the false prophet who performed signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image; and these two were thrown alive into the lake of fire which burns with brimstone."Revelation 19:19-20
"And the devil who deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are also; and they well be tormented day and night forever and ever. And the sea gave up the dead which were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead which were in them; and they were judged, everyone according to their deeds. And death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. This is the second death, the lake of fire. And if anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire." Revelation 20:10,13-15

"'Then He will also say to those on His left, "Depart from Me, accused one, into the eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels;" and these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.'" Matthew 25:41, 46

Which "eternal" does not mean eternal?

Lets start with the first one but read it all in context.

New King James Version (NKJV)

5 Whoever believes that Jesus is the Christ is born of God, and everyone who loves Him who begot also loves him who is begotten of Him. 2 By this we know that we love the children of God, when we love God and keep His commandments. 3 For this is the love of God, that we keep His commandments. And His commandments are not burdensome. 4 For whatever is born of God overcomes the world. And this is the victory that has overcome the world�our faith. 5 Who is he who overcomes the world, but he who believes that Jesus is the Son of God?
Believing (faith) is what saves. Works are the proof that you are saved.

I would like to interject that "works" are not acts of obedience to the commands of Jesus. For example, when Peter commanded the household of Cornelius to be baptized (Acts 10:48) that was a clear "condition" of salvation, just like it was on the day of Pentecost (Acts 2:38.)

It is unremitted sin that separates us from God and eternal life. When we walk in the light, as He is in the light, we have fellowship one with another and the blood of Jesus Christ His son cleanseth us from all sin. (1 John 1:7)

Baptism (of John the Baptist or Christ) has always been "for the remission of sins." (Mark 1:4 John baptized in the wilderness and preached the baptism of repentance for the remission of sins.)

So was the thief on the cross a baptized believer? (Mt 3:4-6 And the same John had his raiment of camel�s hair, and a leather girdle about his loins; and his meat was locusts and wild honey.
5 Then there went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region round about the Jordan.
6 And they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.)

Based on this passage, one could objectively conclude there is a better chance that the thief was a baptized believer than not, and was counted among the vast majority of Jews who were baptized of John, for the remission of sins, than the few (Pharisees and lawyers) who rejected the counsel of God against themselves, not being baptized of John. (Luke 7:30.)

Was the thief possibly baptized by the fire?

"If you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord and believe in your heart the God raised Him from the dead, you shall be saved; for with the heart man believes, resulting in righteousness, and with the mouth he confesses, resulting in salvation." Romans 10:9-10

Hopefully you saw belief results in righteousness. But doing, that is confessing, results in salvation. The thief on the cross preached to the other thief; consistent with "work out your salvation". It is all God's Word.

OrangeOkie,

You made a great post!

The thief died before the "baptism with fire," which was the "axe" that was laid at the root of Pharasitical Judaism . . . when the Mosaic economy was finally and completely destroyed in AD 70 with the destruction of the temple at Jerusalem.

+1

Thats some fancy figuring to get that thief baptized.
Please read what it says not what you have been taught it says!

Eph 2:4 But God, who is rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ by grace you have been saved, 6 and raised us up together, and made us sit together in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus, 7 that in the ages to come He might show the exceeding riches of His grace in His kindness toward us in Christ Jesus. 8 For by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God, 9 not of works, lest anyone should boast. 10 For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand that we should walk in them.
BY GRACE THROUGH FAITH, works are an out growth of our love for Christ.

If I understand you correctly, you are saying that the only things that exist are those that can be seen, touched and felt. By that standard, then logic and mathematics don't exist. Neither do the whole range of human emotions. Also, in your universe I myself don't exist because you can't see or verify me. Let me suggest that your view is insufficient to explain the readily observable facts. There are many things that exist but that can no be seen, touched, or felt.



Christians are not telling you that you are damned. God is.



Fair enough. This is your choice, one that results from your own faith. But what are you going to tell God when you stand before him on the judgement day? That he doesn't exist? That will be a tough sell.



Christians are under orders to preach the gospel and to make disciples. Why would you expect us to willfully disobey our Lord and Savior?

"Learn first what you must believe, then go to the Bible to find it there." (Hugo of St Victor, 12th Century)

180� WRONG!

Example! Not sure what you mean.

ColdB., so you know the heart and blood are real because you can see them. I guess that which made the heart and that which makes it beat is not real, since you can't see that force.

Quote: 5 Then there went out to him Jerusalem and all Judea and all the region round about the Jordan.
6 And they were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins.

I can objectively conclude there is a better chance the thief was baptized than not. The only reason i bring this point to light is because I often hear people say (definitively) the thief was not baptized of John for the remission of his sins. There is no objective evidence he was NOT baptized. The statement above indicates he probably was if he was from Jerusalem, Judea, or the region round about the Jordan River.

Do you have objective (Scriptural) evidence he was not baptized my friend?

BTW . . . "obedience" (ie. praying, being baptized, believing in Jesus, etc.) to God's commands are not "works."

No evidence for or against.

On works maybe we have a communication problem.

All right � there are many. Here's an easy one �

For years, "Christianity" has taught us that Jesus's words in John 15:13 ("Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends") mean that Jesus sacrificed Himself for the salvation of all mankind. For everyone.

But if I'd go to the Bible first, and read John 15:14 as well as John 15:13, I'd see quite emphatically otherwise ("Greater love hath no man than this, that a man lay down his life for his friends. Ye are my friends, if ye do whatsoever I command you.") Two verses, comprised in one utterance, the second invariably omitted from the officially decreed " � what you must believe � ."

The second verse isn't nearly as universal and as glory-promising as the first. It's much narrower, much stricter, so it isn't what the soul-hunters like to include in their bait. It's worlds easier to regard Jesus as a grantor of nice favors than it is to contemplate Him as a Lord Who expects to be obeyed.

So, in my opinion and in my approach to responsible exegesis, the much more appropriate procedure, 180� from Hugo's edict, is to (a) go to the Bible (b) to learn what to believe.

So very well put!

I am

Are all the American Indians, Eskimos, & various aboriginals who never knew Jesus excluded? Are the followers of Mohammad & Buddha excluded who lived in accordance with their religion? I once attended a large church in Virginia where I live as a guest that has world wide missions to spread the word of Christ. I'm sure there are other churches of the same belief in the South. The sermon that day was that their particular church was the only path to Heaven. All other Christian religions were condemed to eternal damnation as well as Muslims,etc.

Ken, amen to that

I am Knighted and Sworn to uphold the Cross.

Anyone else here with me?

Actually "Pride [goeth] before destruction, and an haughty spirit before a fall."

I find you to be condescending and irreverent a lot of the time. That's not always a bad thing though. Jesus, Himself, was irreverent and condescending a lot of the time as well. That's why the religious leaders of the day hated him to their core.

This post cracked me up as I tried to envision it! I think it would have been far neater if a firing squad had been used. Then I could say that carrying a gun was a part of my religious freedom

There are two ways.

Jesus said that all who knock at the door will have it opened to them. Anyone of any religion or society who truly seeks God will find him. We aren't told how God does it, just that he does.

"Without the virgin birth, crucifixion, and resurrection, the teachings of Jesus are meaningless. If you don't believe in the resurrection, you're not a Christian at all so his teachings are worthless to you." Rockchuck.

The "teachings" of Jesus contain many "pearls of wisdom" that can help anybody live a more contented life right here on earth.

The "truth" is just as true, no matter WHO speaks it.

Christianity introduces a man to a supernatural power that will enable him to fundamentally change himself.

Not "change his ways", but "change himself".

Apart from that Power, he is stuck with being what he is.

Which brings to mind a question; Were you a "know it all" BEFORE you became a Christian?

The term "baptism by fire" historically refers to martyrdom. He was not a martyr, since we are to assume that his execution was just, i.e., he was, after all, a criminal who had committed a capital offense as defined by the state. He wasn't being executed for his proclamation of faith.

Even according to Catholicism, the thief on the cross didn't require baptism, as no one required baptism till after the resurrection of Jesus. Righteous folks who died before that were gathered in a place termed "paradise." Jesus saw the thief in paradise that very day when he released him, and all others there, so that they could ascend to heaven.

He means he doesn't take his instruction from churchmen, but only from the word directly.

God is fully capable of seeing to it that his own are either born in a region where the truth is preached, or that a preacher be sent to where one wasn't before, or that a person from said region transport himself to one where the truth is in fact preached. Therefore your argument doesn't hold water since it requires a God who's incapable of providing the means of salvation to certain populations due to mere geography.

Remember also that narrow is the road that leads to life, and few there are who go that way, so the notion of vast numbers not having access to the Gospel doesn't seem so strange, as God knows ahead of time who are his own and who are not. The vast majority are not, and the message is entirely wasted on them to start with.

I believe on Christ, I am saved by his blood, I worship him. I try to do Gods work and try to walk with him. I am not successful at that, then again nobody really is.

The only baptism that is real is the baptism(immersion) of the Holy Spirit, which can't be defined in that worldly term or a contained in a worldly gesture.

Folks throughout history have felt that 'something', without a religion to define it and excepted without fanfare.

They are the lucky ones not having to debate bullchit...

�Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of heaven belongs to such as these"

Kent

We see in God's Word there is no other name than Jesus for salvation. Jesus clearly states He is the only Way to the Father. There are lots of stories of Jesus appearing to modern people informing them that He is the way.

You will see in Acts 10 after the Holy Spirit fell on a group of Gentiles that Apostle Peter ordered them to be baptized in water. This was in response an angel telling someone Apostle Peter would tell them ALL the Words of eternal life.

I'm a christian, but I agree with your last paragraph.

We had one of these threads one time that resulted in a half-dozen conversions and two volunteers for missions in the Congo. I'm sure "we" did, but I missed it.

The main problem with lots [not all, by any means] of folks trying to get somebody else started on "the road to salvation" is that they try to start 'em from a place where they ain't.

It seems like they are afraid a man may find the "wrong" God, all the while claiming that there is only one God.

If a man has NEVER looked up at the night sky and wondered;"Who then made all this?", he is certainly in a small minority of the human race.

If he can get his head around the idea of a "creation without a Creator" and stick to that conviction with never a doubt of any size, then I reckon he was condemned to eternal ignorance from birth.

The idea of an ENTITY that was capable of "making all that was made", and yet "outsourced" the function of communicating with ITS creatures to other creatures just like them is ridiculous as far as I'm concerned.

Now, if that ENTITY was well and truly dead, then IT would require ITS creatures to spread ITS message, and they would probably write a bunch of stuff down in a book and preach from it.

But... being alive and eternal, Jesus initiated the conversation with each human when He put that question of "creation"in his mind.

THAT is where we ALL must start from in my opinion.

THEN, at some point in our journey, that book starts to make sense.

I don't define my faith through Paul.

Kent

I have not read this entire thread, but I honestly do believe and I call myself a Christian. I also have noticed that among those who don't believe, those that I consider "good folks" still live by mainly Christian values and principles. There are likely quite a few people on this forum who are not Christians, but we wouldn't know it if we went solely by their actions. A large problem with today's society is the decline of those Christian-based values among the general population, both believers and non-believers.

Ain't that the truth. And it was intentionally engineered.

"I don't define my faith through Paul.

Kent"

Well put.

Wrong.

I can set two apples on a table. I see two. Then I can set two more on the table, and now I see four. And I can reach out and touch them. That is addition.

And I can't verify you?? Really?? That's the kind of argument that you want to use to show the superiority of being an all-knowing christian? I may not be able to see or touch you from here, but you are merely a few hours plane ride away. That has to be one of the weakest counters I've run across. Embarrassing actually.

Emotions? I can see smiles, I can touch tears.

Let ME suggest that YOU are a gullible fool for falling for all that you do, simply on somebody's word.



Really? Ask him to type it on here himself. HIM, not one of you, "on his behalf", or "doing his work". Have him send it to me via registered mail, with a verified return address, and postmarked heaven. Till then, "he" isn't telling me anything. But lots of you are.



I'm not going to tell him a thing. Cause I'll be DEAD and gone. My "spirit" isn't going to any gate, and nobody will be "there" to ask me any questions. Tough sell? A salesman that is dead trying to sell something to somebody who doesn't exist? Yeah, you win that round, it might be hard to get that one done.



My orders come in written form. Laws are on the books. Military regulations are on the books. When somebody with the authority to do so tells me that I have to do one of those things, I can go find the reference, and also see the penalty. I don't like paying fines or sitting in jail, so I make my decisions based on that. Real rules, with real consequences, that I can feel. Yours? Not so much. And before anybody even bothers, no, I am not one bit concerned about "but what if".

God would be so disappointed in you if he knew that you were the best he had to put forth his arguments.

Is the Universe - which you can see - an effect without a cause?

I am. and there's only ONE way. Jesus said he was THE way. Not a way.

Now you've done it ColdBore, you've outed yourself and made the Campfire prayer list....

The Universe, aka God's creation, is much greater than any of our ancestors every imagined, the same is likely true of God.

At the very least, God's gift is life, is there more?

You may not post much but when you do it is worth reading.

Much of that seems true, but please show where/how medical science demostrates that there is no more "spirit" after physical death.


Show me a fleeting thought, show me a yearning, show me a pain, show me an empathetic feeling, show me - - -. Does the fact that one cannot "show" those in finite form mean that they do not exist? Hardly. Do you you have a soul? Really!? If you feel, or believe, that you do not have a soul, it is understandable that you would not believe that your "spirit" will live on after your body rots. If, on the other hand, you believe that you do have a soul, how do you know that? Has medical science demonstrated it to you?


One cannot speak for others on this point, but the Bible does not make me believe anything - nor does it make me do anything. The Bible is the Word of God - it is ours to study, or not study. It is ours to believe, or not believe. God has given mankind a lot of free will - His Word does not make us do anything at all - we have choices to make. According to God's Word, those choices determine our future - for eternity. I have yet to see where medical science has spoken definitively about our future for eternity.


The above questions and analyses are neither preaching nor constant on my part. They may seem somewhat passive, but they are not subtle - and one can only hope that they can be enlightening. There is no effort here to convince you of anything - no plea or encoragement for you to do anything, except maybe to be more open in some way. Any agression in these matters must be be left to God. In addressing God's plan for the salvation of mankind, no Christian can be doing himself a favor. Any such favor would be to God.

This is not an easy conversation, but I hope that you will be able to see the comments in the positive spirit intended, and hope it is in some way helpful.

CCCC............ any none believer who finds something objectionable in your post is likely trying to put himself beyond the reach of God.

Trying to escape from something which does not exist puts a man in strange company.

Did Christ masturbate as a child, yes/no?

I can't answer that question on the grounds I would be judging people which if your a christian you shouldn't do.
But - the question contains part of the answer provided you assume what a Christian is.

That's where opinions seem to differ

I'm still wondering why Ken won't touch one of my posts with a 10 foot pole - I'm not trying to be sarcastic

1 Timothy 6:4

he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

2 Timothy 2:23

Don�t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Titus 3:9

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

ColdBore, I am a true believer that you will receive your registered mail in due time. I hope you are are ready to sign for it.

G

Ask Him................. He's alive, you know.

Being convinced of a Risen Christ relieves me of any responsibility to answer stupid questions on His behalf.

If He is risen then that answers the question, thanks!

1. I don't know which question you refer to, but it makes no difference since I judge people's actions and words all the time.

2.I can't answer for Ken. Ask him......he's alive, you know.

3. Gonna be off line awhile. CCCC has my proxy vote.

Medical science doesn�t need to prove a negative. The burden of proof is always on the person making the assertive claim. There�s no evidence for a soul for or against.

billhilly, Let it be clear - no assertion on my part - merely asked the gentleman to show where/how his assertive claim has been demonstrated.

Don't give up hope you old goat. Wife and I are going to church on Palm Sunday and Easter.

It never ceases to amaze me how so many people think their beliefs are the only acceptable belief. I gave up on organized religion years ago. I was raised by a devout mother (who incidentally was a Sunday school teacher for 30 years) but she failed to accept that maybe I could think for myself. She tried so hard to get me to accept what she believed that eventually it drove me away from religion.

I believe my life follows what is accepted to be a "good" life if the word "religion" isn't brought into the discussion. I believe that when I die I am gone. If others think otherwise it is not my intent or place to try and dissuade them. I think it is presumptuous for others to think they know so much better than I what I should do or believe in.

The only thing this thread brings to me is the rigidity of thought some people hold.

All the best to everyone no matter what their orientation.

Jim

Fair enough. In the absence of evidence, it is reasonable to withhold belief. Like unicorns for instance. I don�t believe they exist but concede it is possible someone may come back from the jungles of Borneo or someplace with hard evidence of them. Until that happens, I will continue to believe they do not exist.

I say yes. Matthew 11:28

Here are some words from the New Testament that convinced me to put on Christ.

Through him we have also obtained access by faith into this grace in which we stand, and we rejoice in hope of the glory of God. - Romans 5:2

So faith comes from hearing, and hearing through the word of Christ. - Rom 10:17

For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. - John 3:16

Repent and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins, and you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. - Acts 2:38

...if you confess with your mouth that Jesus is Lord and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. For with the heart one believes and is justified, and with the mouth one confesses and is saved. - Romans 10:9-10

Whoever believes and is baptized will be saved, but whoever does not believe will be condemned. - Mark 16:16

...and you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved. - Matthew 10:22

Apostle Peter and Apostle Paul are not the same guy. Never the less both were instructed by Jesus and inspired by the Holy Spirit in what they wrote.

You want us to believe you don't have "rigidity of thought"?

For a very simple reason �

Your posts just happen to be among the bale of so many others that I'm not commenting on.

See? I'm just not answering a lot of posts � just keeping my thoughts to myself, mostly.

Not interested in endlessly debating every little bone of contention. Never got any thrill out of watching BBs bounce off boulders.

I read the thread often but answer or contribute very few posts (when I feel that I can contribute something that'll edify somebody who'll receive it).

In general, I let everyone who's committed to an opinion enjoy it to his own heart's content, without feeling that I hafta urge 'im to accept my knowledge or opinion.

Human minds do not decide or declare God's existence, ways, or works � neither by questioning nor by ridicule. Most certainly not by ridicule nor by ridiculous questions that arise from rejection or rebellion.

Well there's a revelation... and acts wasn't written by Peter.



Peter was instructed by Jesus... many have been inspired by the Holy spirit in what they wrote.

How many Dogmas you willing to recognize?

Kent

Exactly the way I feel. Kind of interesting that some find so much fault with us for not arguing.

This is from a letter written by one Sebastian Castellio to the then Duke of Wurtemburg.

�If you, illustrious Prince, had informed your subjects that you were coming to visit them at an unnamed time, and had requested them to be prepared in white garments to meet you at your coming, what would you do if on arrival you should find that, instead of robing themselves in white, they had spent their time in violent debate about your person � some insisting that you were in France; others that you were in Spain; some declaring that you would come on horseback, others that you could come by chariot; some holding that you would come with great pomp and others that you would come without any train or following? And what especially would you say if they debated not only with words, but with blows of fist and sword strokes, and if some succeeded in killing and destroying others who differed from them?

�He will come on horseback.� �No, he will not; it will be by chariot.� �You lie.� �I do not; you are the liar.� �Take that� � a blow with a fist. �That that� � a sword-thrust through the body.

Prince, what would you think of such citizens? Christ asked us to put on the white robes of a pure and holy life; but what occupies our thoughts? We dispute not only the way to Christ, but of his relation to God the Father, of the Trinity, of predestination, of free will, of the nature of God, of the angels, of the condition of the soul after death � of a multitude of matters that are not essential to salvation; matters, moreover, which can never be known until our hearts are pure; for they are things which must be spiritually perceived�.


That was written in the 16th century, I see that not one thing has changed in the intervening 500 or more years, nor are they likely to change in the next 5000.

Sad but true.

� nor by debate nor by majority vote.

did Jesus have a belly button?

we know that Adam & Eve did not.

Adam & Eve may not have belly buttons, but they have most of the other toys you might want. I know this because they send me e-mails all the time.

Where'd you get the idea I think Acts was written by Peter.



The way you wrote it suggests to me you don't think Apostle Paul was taught by Jesus. Am I correct?



All that I'm aware of and some I'm not.

Including those that contradict each other?

Including those that contradict the Bible?

Fair enough, as well. Cannot disagree with that aspect - am OK with even total denial of unicorns. But, that fellow stated that medical science taught us something seminal about the "spirit". Often, when someone tells me what medical science has taught, I ask where, and how. Show me the evidence, for learning sake if for no other.

You�ll get no argument from me against asking for the evidence.

Again, if Kenny is saved I know my alternative is a better one.

That is totally untrue and ridiculous that neither Adam nor Eve had navels. How do you know? God made them in full and true human form, perfect in every way.

And of course Jesus had a naval. He was born of Mary and therefor had a naval. To write that Jesus did not have a naval is to deny his humanity. The bible teaches that Jesus was totally human and totally God.

Come on guys (beleivers) does pearls & swine ring a bell?

Yep, it is ridiculous to assume that two people with three sons populating the earth with humans didn't have belly buttons.

Let me see, you're saying that God could create Adam from a lump of clay and Eve from a rib of Adam, but He couldn't create them with belly buttons. Is that right?

Where did the three sons get there wives? Maybe there is a theologian here who can tell us.

Could be or maybe it's allegory contradicted by all available evidence.

"Our own curiosity (or unyielding obstinacy � KEH) often hinders us in the reading of the Scriptures, when we desire to understand (or ridicule � KEH) and discuss that which we should instead pass over [and move-on]." ( � Thomas � Kempis)

How the heck do you remember all that stuff?

Not correct to assume that Adam and Eve only bore three sons, more likely since humans in those days lived much longer lives, of ten hundreds of years, that there were many children, both male and female.

God only reveals to us what we need to know concerning salvation through Jesus. All will eventually be revealed when we get to heaven. Faith man, Faith.

� Write it down some place.
� Remember that I wrote it down some place.
� Try to remember where I wrote it down.
� Try to find where I wrote it down.
� Find (now 'n' then) where I wrote it down.

Un Real

(Or is that surreal?)

Really!!

I have nearly the same system but mine looks like this.

� Write it down some place.
� Remember that I wrote it down some place.
� Try to remember where I wrote it down.
� Try to find where I wrote it down.
� Find (now 'n' then) where I wrote it down.
� If I find it either can't read my own writing or figure out my spelling or both.

oh, he could, he could, if he wanted to? he could create Sasquatch, Chupacabra, and the Loch Ness Monster if he wanted to. he can do anything.

but, i'll match ya, and raise ya one, if that's ok? even if there wasn't a God, we humans would create one if we wanted one enough. Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, Buddha, Ra, Odin, you name it, it's appeared on the road to travel with us at one time or another.

a lot of the old gods have been knocked in the head, and have been rolled down to the bottom of the ditch on side of the road. i hope my God and your God doesn't meet that fate.

Any sulfa drug you rx can kill someone by causing Stevens-Johnson's syndrome. I have thousands of things like that written down all over the place and couldn't find most of it on a bet.

10-4, Scott. I live there.

Not pointing at anyone specific here but as a general rule

- The more someone flaps their lips professing to be something the less I believe 'em

And that goes for myself as well

Pears sent for the church.

And humans have for many centuries tried to do so.

But forming wishful or hostile opinions and theories re gods is a long way from creating actual gods. No one can create anything that'll be greater than himself in all regards.

I can't remember even one science-fiction fantasizer who ever created any of the critters and superheroes that he fantasized.

Men have also be claiming to have found the true God for eon's, but some many of them then started applying God's laws with the minds of men

"...even if there wasn't a God, we humans would create one if we wanted one enough. Allah, Yahweh, Jesus, Buddha, Ra, Odin, you name it, it's appeared on the road to travel with us at one time or another."

Doubt it. What you see in your examples is more likely a result of God creating a spiritual vacuum in man that can only be filled by Himself; those who don't come to him in truth simply seek another way to fill that vacuum. If there was no maker/God, there would be no need for man to 'invent' a god.

Literally, no... not like Peter.

Figuratively, every person who believes a God hears and answers them feels instructed.

Kent

Ken, i think you are totally on tract (track)?

it just amazes me when ordinary, lowly commoners can advance forth and kilt a God? we all know that's nearly impossible. don't we?

1 Timothy 6:4

he is puffed up with conceit and understands nothing. He has an unhealthy craving for controversy and for quarrels about words, which produce envy, dissension, slander, evil suspicions,

2 Timothy 2:23

Don�t have anything to do with foolish and stupid arguments, because you know they produce quarrels.

Titus 3:9

But avoid foolish controversies, genealogies, dissensions, and quarrels about the law, for they are unprofitable and worthless.

Please take note that in the above you aren't quoting me or responding to what I posted.

And some have- I know him as "Zero"

ref call's a foul on both sides -

In some circles having bad spelling is a foul (I'm part of the guilty)
In other circles focusing on the trimming, vs. the meat of a post is also a foul

So the two fouls cancel each other... Continue

You been smoking way too much "Wackey Weed"

Not only that, but even if the God of the Bible is real some humans would create an explanation of how life and all they see came to be without God.

However, no one gets to know for sure, we all believe what we do about God by faith and faith alone. Christians acknowledge they believe by faith while the self deluded think they know something on the basis of evidence.

Personally I believe the gospel because it's like a key that fits a lock in my heart. It's the way the Almighty would select those who are suitable for eternity in His kingdom. All that's required is the ability to humble one's self before God and believe the foolishness of the message preached. If you can do that then God can perfect the rest of you.

Got a crisp $50 says Satan will be butt [bleep] you whilst Kenny is cheering on.

But these speak evil of whatever they do not know; and whatever they know naturally, like brute beasts, in these things they corrupt themselves. Jude 10

When Adam lived one hundred and thirty years he became the father of a son in his own likeness, according to his image,, and name him Seth. The the days of Adam after he becsme the father of Seth were eight hundred year, and he had sons and daughters. So all the days that Adam lived were nine hundred and thirty years, and he died." Genesis 5:3-5

Blow me. Jude 69

Dear Lord, Please have mercy on the gnat in your hair, for he knows not... .Amen

Proverbs 18:7
A fool�s mouth is his destruction, And his lips are the snare of his soul.

I guess I must be messed up. I only know three people who claim to have actually heard the voice of God. That does not include me. I don't hear God. His instructions come to me from His Word, the Bible.

Frightenly, too true.

Dear God, save me from your followers.

I'm pretty sure You live in Him.

I have been touched by His noodly appendage.

Cheese Be Upon Him, rAmen.

I'm fairly certain you do too.

You can't read for chit can you?... Voice... Paul and Peter aren't the same dude... Paul was taught by Jesus...

Kent

And there's nothing else quite like this kind of a thread to lure 'em into blaring-forth the noise of their destruction as if they delight in it.

Thats a great start, glad I could help!

Don't sweat it, I'm praying for your hell bent soul. I only hope you find the path. God has told me you are [bleep].

MacLorry,




I have read this thread from the beginning and your sentence above has more to say than the vast majority of those who have posted. One must humble himself to come to the Lord. But how hard it is for us humans to think we don't have the answers.

It truly does bring out the hypocrites in force. Say hey to your kids you old [bleep].

Like moths crawling into the lantern top on a lake at night, as you sit and catch crappie for a feast.

The power of Satan makes them no more than a moth drawn to the fire, unable to do more than follow their nose.

Steel you're doing great, 2 prayers in just a matter minutes.
Heb 11:6 He is a rewarder of those who diligently seek Him.

eyeball,



I wrote an essay called Jesus, the Formed God. It appears to be heretical at first, but it is one of my better works.


To help us understand more fully what Scripture is teaching about God and Jesus and us, we will look at an illustration. Several years ago, when one of the Soviet's cosmonauts returned from a few orbits around the earth, he told us that he had looked out of the porthole and did not see God. Corresponding to this a little girl received a set of new roller skates. She was so excited that she asked her mommy to help her put them on immediately. She happily took off on her maiden roll. Before she traversed the length of her own height, the skates traveled faster than her center of gravity and she sat down abruptly. Her bumped bottom received a bruise. In case you don't know what a visible bruise is, it is blood that escapes from its blood vessels and spreads out and shows under the skin. For the sake of this illustration we will pretend that the blood cells are intelligent and communicative. One got back into the blood stream. It informed those who would listen, "We have all heard of people. When I was out of our normal environment and in the open I looked about and did not see any people. They do not exist!" What does God say? Everything that is created is in Me and held together by Me!(Colossians 1:17, Jeremiah 23:23-24) Consequently no matter how far one travels on earth or from earth, while he is in time and space, he "is in Him".

AMEN

And those but what spew and stir up, this kinda venomous thread, just for that purpose, and delight in it.

That sounds like the time worn Pantheistic argument that "God had to make the universe out of Himself since He was all that existed".

Your sentence is self contradicting. Pantheistic implies more than one. The God of the Bible is The Infinite One. Nothing can exist outside of infinite. Not knowledge, not energy, not space, not anything.

You should learn more about Pantheism if you are going to argue against it.

And I ain't in the mood to teach you.

I now take solace in the fact he once told me I'm going to hell... on his record of reading stuff right...

I'm a shoo in to heaven for sure...

Kent

Rightly stated Ring . . . let me add a bit on the conversion of Cornelius.

Acts 10:1-2 tells us that: There was a certain man in C�sarea called Cornelius, a centurion of the band called the Italian band,
2 A devout man, and one that feared God with all his house, which gave much alms to the people, and prayed to God alway.

Cornelius was considered a devout man, but he was lost, because the angel appeared unto him and told him to send for Peter who would tell him words that would lead to his salvation (Acts 11:13-14)

So like you say Ring, when Peter commanded them to be baptized in water (Acts 10:47-48), those were part of the words (gospel) whereby Cornelius and his household were to be saved.

When the Holy Spirit fell on Cornelius and his household (Gentiles) it had nothing to do with the remission of their sins, it was a sign to Peter and the other Jews who accompanied him that God accepts Gentiles. (Acts 11:17) Peter makes it clear that he had to think back all the way to the Day of Pentecost in Acts 2 to remember a time when the Spirit fell on a group of people (manifested by miraculous gifts) directly from heaven, and not through the laying on of the Apostles hands, which was the only way Spiritual gifts were imparted in the first century (Acts 8:15-18)

Also, it is the hearing and obedience to the gospel that is the power of God unto salvation (Rom 1:16 - For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ: for it is the power of God unto salvation to every one that believeth; to the Jew first, and also to the Greek.) But Cornelius and his household had not yet heard the gospel when the Holy Spirit fell on them, for the Scripture says that Peter had only began to speak when the Spirit manifested itself (Acts 11:15)

[quote=Bull_Elk]All I know is that as a human, I'm a sinner. I pray a lot for forgiveness and some day that the grace of God bestowed upon me at my baptism will allow to enter the eternal kingdom. [/quote

Bull_elk I know what you mean as I'm a subscriber of Back Sliders Wine as well,and though

in the book of life I am not proud of the way I live . Guess it's time to try harder.

Bob

I'm sure you'll recognize that what I wrote comes from 1 Corinthians 1:18-31. Perhaps every Christian can cite some scripture that sealed their faith and 1 Corinthians 1:18-31 is that for me. Not that it stands alone, but that it explained what I needed explained.

Your comment seems illogical to me. American Indians, Eskimos, & many aboriginal people existed well before the birth of Christ. So thousands of years ago people with no knowledge of Christianity should have transported them selves where?

Odd that this came up. I asked a christian freind of mine that some years ago. He assured me that they all burnt in hell because they did not know Christ. Seemed happy with the answer too....


Same goes for those in foreign lands who have never been exposed to Christianity through no fault of their own...they are all going to hell too...


Uhhhhhhhhhhh......

Where did people go before there was Christ or Hell?

Chicago....kinda the same thing as hell....

Good answer, but I am waiting on the Hades play.

I thought Hades was on the south side....

Ooops! It is early and I am not quite awake. Should have phrased that "Where did one's soul go before Christ died for our sins and before there was a Hell?"

California, thats why they are so overpopulated

I think you're baiting me now....

Beyond God controlling where and when believing souls are sent you have to consider 1 Peter 4:6 "For this is the reason the gospel was preached even to those who are now dead, so that they might be judged according to men in regard to the body, but live according to God in regard to the spirit."

Consider also the Biblical principle of to whom more is given more is required. Those with the ability to read and have access to the Bible may be held to a higher standard that those who are unable to do so.

At least you gave an answer. And it was honest!

I try not to get involved in these kind of discussions, but I have seen this question a lot from non-believers and haven't really seen anybody try to give you guys a genuine answer. I don't have all the answers, but I'd like to attempt to address this one, if I may...

My answer will come from my personal relationship with Him, rather than from a cerebral dogmatic approach...

Two things about God's Character come into play right off the bat. First, God is a just God and not some condescending judgmental jerk with a baseball bat waiting to clobber us for our sins and send us off into eternal damnation all while laughing. That's just not the God that I know.

Jesus is just. He will do the right thing. I believe this enough to trust Him with my eternity.

The second thing about God's Character is that He is compassionate. He loves us enough that He was willing to be mocked, beaten, and murdered just to provide a way for us to spend eternity with Him. There is no doubt in my mind that He had all people in mind when He did that.

That's the Jesus that I know. So, what has He said about any of that?



That kind of points to my first paragraph about the dude with the bat waiting to launch people into damnation. That's just not the God that I know...

Hebrews 12:2 tells us that the very reason He endured the cross was for the joy that was before Him. What joy!? It certainly wasn't the cross. Heaven maybe? Then why bother to leave in the first place? No, His joy is in us. He just plain loves us. Why? BEATS ME! I think He's a little crazy for loving me, personally, as I certainly don't do Him a whole lot of favors...

The Bible says that He has revealed Himself to everybody and that nobody has an excuse for ignoring or rejecting Him. We all are given the choice to acknowledge Him or not.



He has revealed Himself to every man, woman, and child in two very clear ways. First, his eternal power and secondly, through His divine nature.

Most of us on the Campfire marvel at the works of nature and relish any chance we have to get out into it. Those works are Gods handiwork. Why do you think it's in our core to return to nature? It's where God created us. He made Adam from the dirt of the ground and IN the Garden of Eden. The wilderness is home for us...

Lastly, (and I could go on and on...) the last thing about God that I know to be true is that He's far more intelligent than we are. His was are above our ways and His thoughts are above our thoughts. So much so that the Bible says that His ways seem foolish to us. In many ways they do, but they never fail to yield amazing results.

He loved those American Indians, Eskimos, and many aboriginal people enough to die for them. He didn't just leave them to flounder. They may not have known Christianity (they're lucky in many ways there!) but God said that He has revealed Himself to them.

Ultimately, where we spend eternity is our choice.

I hope that helps address your question, tbear.

For those who genuinely want to understand what happened to the dead before Jesus Christ, what happens to them now, and what will happen to them in the future there's a good article by W. Edward Bedore, Th.D. titled Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave

Good question!

Hell was actually created before we were! It was never intended, by God, that people spend eternity there. The Bible is very clear that Hell was created to punish Lucifer (aka Satan) and his angels that waged war in Heaven. That was it's purpose.

Where did one's soul go before the redemption? My honest answer is that I don't know. That said, there are some references in Scripture of a place called "Abraham's Bosom" where souls would go.

Yeah, I don't know much more about that "place" than that, but as MacLorry pointed out, there is some indication that Jesus went someplace those three days that He was in the tomb, to gather up and take those souls with Him to Heaven...

Oh, and one more verse about all those tribes and Nations of people separated from "Christianity" by time and geography...

John was exiled for his faith and in exile He had a vision of Heaven. This is part of that vision...



They're there!

So yeah, He's just, compassionate, and His ways are above ours...

It's long, but check it out if you have the time. Hell, Sheol, Hades, Paradise, and the Grave

Interesting piece Mac. I can't say that I agree with all of it, but such is life, eh!?

I'm also certainly no authority on religion. I just have a relationship with God, and try to speak from the experiences that I garner from that.

Kind of like when Paul said "I know nothing, other than Christ, and Him crucified."

Some here might be able to make the point that unlike Paul, I should stop at the first comma!

Nice article of trying to explain a difficult question, but there are some major holes. For example, Abraham's bosom. Where did all the others before Abraham go?

Said I wasn't going to post on this thread anymore but this is a softball question.

Before Jesus, shoot all the way back to the garden of Eden man had an established way....it was and always will be through the blood sacrifice.

Until Jesus it was animals, that's why Abel's sacrifice was a more excellent sacrifice over Cains...his was through fruits and vegetables.

Then when Jesus came it was through His blood.

And those 3 days when Jesus was in the tomb, his spirit was in hell preaching to the lost souls that never heard his name.

Nobody has an excuse!!!!

I'm out!

For such a softball question you gave no answer with a destination.

Concerning Indians, pygmies, monks in a cave, jews, muslims, hindus... ect

God, JC, Holy spirit have a bunch of names in just the bible... and a bunch more they will answer to throughout history.

If there's just one God then that's who everyone has believed in... they just don't believe in someone elses version.

I was once told I wasn't a believer because I didn't capitalize the C in christ... and so it goes.

Jesus is inclusionary, he was also KISS in his small part of the bible... if you have ever felt you are part of something bigger than just yourself... you recognized and named God...

See ya there.

Kent

From the article Abraham's bosom is just another name for Paradise which existed from the beginning within Hades until it was moved to heaven.

Maybe I can narrow it down a bit. No man has ever gotten into heaven before Jesus according to Jesus himself.

It's my understanding from reading the Bible that "Abraham's Bosom" was a gimmicky name applied to a place that existed long before Abraham...

Kind of like calling NYC, "The Big Apple"...

He didn't say "No man comes to the Father before me"

He said, "No man comes to the Father, except through me."

If He did what the Bible suggests, and went to the souls in "Abraham's Bosom" then they still got there through him.

Like I said though, I don't have every answer. I don't know how God does all His stuff, if I did, I'd be God, and nobody wants that!

Paradise hmmm.... No one would have know about that section of Sheol if Jesus hadn't had brought it up to the thief beside him.

If you step back an look at what is happening then you may see how religion via the Bible (or book of your choosing) is the most vile and effective form of control that man has ever created. It is several levels worse than politics since it preys on a person's deepest most vulnerable fears.

The bipolar God of the Old Testament wasn't as effective in creating the followers so they got a little more clever and came up with a newer angle of more loving form of a higher power, Jesus. This did appeal to a far larger audience and still is today.

To keep that appeal going, the churches really have to downplay the BS, murder, genocide, slavery, sexism, and racism in the Bible and do their best to focus on the messages of good and eternal hope. Otherwise it would be difficult to extort the 10% tithing since most people can read and some even think for themselves.

That's a very liberal view of religion as in it doesn't matter what you believe, all are saved. Atheists would agree that it doesn't matter what you believe, all return to oblivion.

But the Bible teaches... "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." -- Acts 4:12

People who were never "given" the name may be judged by another standard, but there's no one like that on this thread.

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. John 3:13 NIV

Okay, it looks like crazy has come to town with the intent to stay. Time for me to exit, stage right.

Ron White was right...

Completely spoken in the past tense. I see no problem with that quote...

I see your purpose here now. It's not for discussion. No point in wasting my time with you. I wish you well, Longbob.

I realize you don't see a problem there. That is a microcosm of the greater problems with the Bible.

I have zero problems with one having faith in a higher being for whatever reason you choose like coping or general peace. Faith actually fascinates me. I cannot say that I wouldn't turn to Christ or something similar if I lost one of my children. Not sure how I would cope with that. A very close friend of mine lost her son and did exactly that. She had to think that he was in a better place otherwise she would have lost her mind (her words).

What perplexes me is that someone will quote me passages from a book that they are basing their deepest beliefs, but ignore the vile parts simultaneously.

Now we're back to a discussion. That, I can do.

You won't see me ignoring any of it, and I'll do my best to answer any questions or address any confusion you have in sincerity.

I see no problem with the verse you quoted because Jesus was speaking in the past tense. It, in no way, contradicts anything anybody has said on the topic.

No one has ever gone.... three very clear past tense words there...

Up until Jesus, nobody entered into Heaven. They were in "Abraham's Bosom" or whatever it was called.

Then, Jesus made a way for both them, and us. So, in fact, up to that point, "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man."

Where is the confusion you have with this?

I'm sorry about your friends loss...

My parents lost a daughter 10 days before her 7th birthday before I was born.

That's a loss one never fully recovers from...

I can't imagine...

For me, it would likely have the opposite effect and cause a "crisis of faith".

It all comes down to a simple question. Is God as described in the Bible real or not? If you don't believe God is real then the only purpose for your theory is to try to either convince yourself or others that the Bible is all a hoax perpetrated by men. In doing so you free yourself from all moral values you don't like, which is a powerful motivation.

I'm not going to try to convince you that God is real and the Bible is His inspired word. What I will argue is that you can't know if the God of the Bible is real or not. As a Christian I readily admit that I believe the Bible on the basis of faith and faith alone. What I will argue is that what you or anyone else believes about God is also based on faith and faith alone.

If I'm wrong I am most miserable among men as the Apostle Paul teaches, but if you are wrong, well enjoy this life.

Your statement reminds me that I was wrong. Thanks.

It reminded of Drs. Crick and Watson telling the world something to the effect that the DNA molecule is too complex to have arisen by evolution therefore spacemen brought it to this world. They called their theory "panspermia".

I really don't have a confusion with it. There is no real clarity of direction of your eternal being before the New Testament. There are parts that touch on it, but the writers realized that this needed to be addressed. They made it crystal clear that the singular path was the belief that Jesus died for your sins. No more no less.

That exposed the churches to a big problem of loss of power and control if they left it at that. All one has to do is to truly believe that Jesus was the son of God and died for your sins. You could lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc...and you would share the same afterlife in Heaven with people like you that I consider very good people. Plus, there was no requirement to tithe. Heaven forbid!!!

Enter Pope Gregory I and the monetization of Purgatory. This was a great money maker for the Catholic church. Who in their right mind wouldn't want to get their loved ones unstuck from that place when it only cost money?

Thank you.

I see real clarity of direction all throughout the Bible. Your history isn't entirely accurate, though some of your points are valid.



There has always been a requirement for repentance. That is, stop sinning and start obeying God. You couldn't lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc and share the same afterlife in Heaven with any person. You always had to repent.

It never was a thing to change a sinful act into a non-issue. Even Moses, though he had a relationship of faith with God and was forgiven, had to face his sin. God told him that he could never enter the promised land that he was taking the Israelites to.

The Bible talks about those people that were wrongfully killed as getting their justice. It talks about Judgement day being a day of weeping and gnashing of teeth. What it DOESN'T say is that that weeping and gnashing will be done only by those condemned to hell.

I fully believe, and can support with the Bible, that even those of us that have been forgiven of our sins, will have a lot of answering to do.

You're right about Pope Gregory I and Purgatory. No argument from me there.

The Old Testament certainly had the requirement of tithing, and the Jewish people that lived the Old Testament traditions certainly tithed. The New Testament has several mentions of tithing, and tithing in action. I don't know where you get that there was no requirement to tithe....

The great news (Gospel) is that Jesus can redeem even the most wretched amongst us. That there is hope for us all, but make no mistake, there is Justice for us all as well.

Lawyers joke that Justice is blind and carries a sword. Well, God has a sword too, and is just. The law is the law and not even the King is above the law.

THAT answer never satisfied me, And God has NEVER revealed to me what ANYONE ELSE should believe , or do. But.... THIS is what took that question away for me:

What if, when Jesus said that He was the ONLY way to the Father, He was introducing Himself in the same way your garbageman or postman - whom you had never met - might introduce himself if he met you at a party, or in a bar, or someplace public? He might say that he had been hauling out your garbage, or delivering your mail, for years, but you never had seen him.

Jesus may have been saying;" This is my role. This has ALWAYS been my role. It's what I do, and have done, since the beginning of time. I'm not making a new rule, here, just introducing Myself and letting you know I'll still be in the same role after I leave and until I come back."

And....... I've never found any scripture that claims a person MUST know the agent who brings him to God.

God has always cleared away any confusion in my mind about me and Him. Sometimes He provides an answer and sometimes He just takes the question away.

He NEVER tells me about anyone else and Him.

There's a couple of question that have been bothering me for some time which probably don't have answers, but somebody touched on one a few pages back so I thought I'd bring them up. See if anybody wanted to take a stab at em.

The Bible teaches that God is the Alpha and Omega. He knows all and is omnipotent. It states many times that we are his creation and he knows everything about us. And since the Angels were his creation, he must know everything about them as well. The following verses come to mind.


Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Luke 12:7

If this is true, then God must also know what his creation's choices and actions will be thru time, which leads me to my questions.

1) Why was Lucifer and his followers created in the first place.? God had to know when he created them that they would turn out to be bad apples. It doesn't make sense that an all powerful being would intentionally create something that he would later prove to bite him in the ass, so to speak, especially since he knows they will NEVER turn from the Dark Side and will eventually end up in Hell anyway.

2) When God created man, he implemented the animal sacrifice system that was the gold standard for generations. But at some "time" (and I don't fully understand this either) God determined that animal sacrifices weren't cutting it any longer, so he sacrificed his Son for our sins as the ultimate sacrifice. If God knew this would happen, why didn't God cut to the chase generations earlier with Jesus, like before Abraham, instead of making man go thru the animal sacrifice bit for so long.?

Longbob
A lot of the old testement is difficult for me.I am still learning and getting to know God and it's been 17 years since I was saved.I won't say that any scripture is false but when only looked at on the surface it does sometimes give a false impression.All scripture must be interpreted with other scripture.It also must be interpreted according to the revealtion of that time frame.For instance when Jesus would say"You have heard it said,an eye for an eye,but I say unto you,love your enemies...." Then there is sometimes a chrisis of translation.If you continue in his word,you will know the truth,and the truth will make you free.

Given the small ammount of space and time available here,I can only say that to know God requires more than just a quick look.It also requires a relationship in which you can even ask God what he ment when he said.......It's a life long commitment.

I like your approach curdog! Of course it's possible to pick it apart by doing some Bible thumping, but you've really touched on something that was important for me to grasp.

I was VERY religious in my younger years. I mean, I made God my life. I would preach (seriously, at 16 I was preaching to seasoned Youth Leaders about doing youth ministry), I would evangelize (saw 600 teens come to Jesus one night near Buffalo), I mean I went all out.

God did a lot of pretty amazing things in that time.

I eventually was invited into full time ministry. If you have done any Bible reading, you'll notice that anytime somebody starts to follow Jesus, He does some house cleaning on their character. I discovered that my character was a mess. It was so bad in fact that I pulled a Jonah and ran from God. That's actually sort of how I ended up in the Army.

I learned that I was the biggest hypocrite ever! I would always preach about the difference between Religion and Relationship, but what I learned is that I had a religion and no relationship.

This made me really question if God, in fact, could actually be known. Was a relationship possible or was it all religion?

I remembered the verse from Proverbs that said, "Lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways, acknowledge God, and He will direct your path."

Lean not on my own understanding? Alright, game on! I rejected anything and everything I "knew" about God. I wasn't going to use any of those means to approach Him. If He was real, then He would keep His word.

No more Bible reading, no more Church, no more praying, no nothin'! I was done.

I got to thinking, that if God was real, and knowable, and if His Bible was true, and we were made in His likeness, then we should be able to know Him just like we know each other.

So, I took it to a real juvenile level. I was mad that there was no relationship. I was mad that I was duped by a religion. I was mad at myself for being a fool, and if there was a God, then I was going to give Him a piece of my mind. I was going to prove He didn't exist once and for all to my satisfaction.

I glared toward the heavens and said, quite aloud actually, and none too politely, "If you're so real, and knowable, then you have likes and dislikes. So, what's your favorite color!?"

I knew I had this God thing cornered then. If He was to answer it, then He was real. Surely if he was real, and created everything and said everything was good, that He'd not have a favorite color. That would be ridiculous...

I wasn't prepared for what happened. It wasn't instantly. As a matter of fact I think it was a few days later, but I got an answer. An unmistakable answer, and it changed my life.

The picture you paint of meeting Jesus at a party or in a bar fits in line with my understanding of Him. He's real, and He enjoys life. Thanks for sharing, curdog.

Deerwhacker, I'd love the opportunity to address your questions, as they are stellar one's and one's that I too have had.

I have to run to class right now (World History from 1500 to Present) but when I return, I'll give it a shot, if you haven't received a satisfactory answer before then.

??? So what's his favorite color..?

Once you repent doesn't mean you are no longer a sinner. Once a sinner always a sinner even if you are a repented sinner. Sinners still get into Heaven according to the New Testament once they accepted Jesus.

Tithing is not a requirement to get into Heaven.

The God described in the Bible is petty and bipolar. I wouldn't doubt there is a higher being, but the Bible does a piss poor job in verifying that. There is as much missing in the Bible as there is bad stuff within.

Who said I need this line of thinking to relieve myself of moral values. It is possible to have morals and values without the need to rely on a Bible or religion. It would be very non Christian like of you to think other wise.

I am enjoying my life as it stands and don't expect anything beyond what I do on this earth. Which could be viewed as a more moral and honest existence. If I believe this is it, the big show so to speak. Then I better not murder, steal, etc...because I am being judged now and must live with the consequences.

But if I murder, steal, etc... in this life and then find Christ in prison which turns out to be false. Which scenario is now the more moral?

That's because I don't follow religion... I believe Jesus was a real person and who he said he was. I also believe he is all things to all people...

I believe he said what he wanted to when he was here... I can't describe who he is in his totality and neither can Paul or Paul by default through Luke. I could take Jesus literally but he never wrote anything down... obviously on purpose.

I don't believe he forgot some stuff and had to make addendum later through men.

I appreciate other's perpecive and inspiration... but one person or groups gospel isn't the end all to God.

Kent

That takes us to the "once saved always saved" debate. I'll get back to ya on this, as it's a good one, but I really gotta run.

You're right about tithing as it pertains to entrance to heaven!

Good discussion, Longbob!

I'll fill ya in in about 2 hours, after my class. Promise!

I am enjoying it too, Hug. Just a little clarity so I don't come across as some bitter Christian hater or something. I work with some of the finest people on the planet and they are all Christians. I will risk a guess that the Christians that have responded in this thread would be in that same category, IMO.

There have been several times that one of them has said "I am surprised you are not a Christian" based on my moral belief system. I have always taken that as a compliment based on the intent of the speaker. The counter of that comment that I could say is "I am surprised you are." But that would not be the appropriate comment nor how I feel.

Being moral does not make you a Christian nor does being a Christian make you moral.

I'm only going to address the last paragraph because I've been perplexed by that as well. I honestly never encountered that behavior anywhere except this forum.

I wouldn't put up with a muslim trying to use the koran to "prove" the koran, and a christian who tries the same tactic has just lost his audience as far as I'm concerned.

The bible can't be literally true. The fact that there are so many translations compounds the problem for a man trying to "ground his faith" on the book.So...that never worked for me.

Fairly late in life, I realized that I had never been allowed to NOT believe in God [or Jesus]. My well meaning old aunt that raised me had drug me to a little "Holiness" church until I was big enough to escape.

I run across folks who have never "dared to not believe". I wonder how strong their faith is gonna be when the rubber [as it always must, at some point] hits the road. Mine sure as hell failed me.

I had to surrender to the "Creator of the Universe",who ever he was, leaving behind my "childhood Jesus."

Then, the REAL, LIVING, Jesus introduced Himself to me as both the "Creator of the Universe", and the "Jesus of the Gospels." He did it in a way that was personal to me and left no room for doubt.

I don't know that I've met the Jesus of Paul's letters yet. I may be too dumb for that.

I couldn't help recalling from the Bible how John the Baptist, who probably knew Jesus as a third cousin growing up, and Peter, who had been His companion for a couple or three years and "knew" Him well, BOTH were "introduced" to a Jesus different from the one they already knew.

Jesus told Peter that "Flesh and blood had not revealed it to him, but the Father had."

As far as I'm concerned, this ability of the Father to reveal Jesus to humans is actually what Jesus founded His "church" on.

Not Peter [as the Romans teach]

Not a statement of faith [as the Protestants teach]

I've found nothing in Scripture to contradict my view, but this forum is certainly the place I'd go if I wanted someone to play "devil's advocate".

Of course, my "view" leaves no place for priests or preachers, and places no premium on intelligence or reading comprehension.

Hell........ even a child can understand it !

Nice post Curdog.

From LongBob:

"The God described in the Bible is petty and bipolar. I wouldn't doubt there is a higher being, but the Bible does a piss poor job in verifying that. There is as much missing in the Bible as there is bad stuff within.

Who said I need this line of thinking to relieve myself of moral values. It is possible to have morals and values without the need to rely on a Bible or religion."


The problem with this is that one is only "as good as he wants to be." This is a problem common to most, in fact I have it as an major issue. ONLY AS GOOD AS... I.... WANT TO BE. This way I only have to satisfy myself and not some external deity. If one's moral standard comes from within oneself, you don't know what you'll end up with. I suspect that most Muslim suicide bombers do truly believe and believe that their own "internal moral code" justifies their act.

I suspect that ALL of us struggle with this in some way.

All the best,

tf

Being I answered the question that I do believe the God of the Bible exists and the Bible is His inspired word I have taken the time to do a bit of study.

The Old Testament was written in ancient Hebrew, which did not use vowels in the written form. It would be somewhat like reading and entire book written in abbreviations. The reader would get the correct meaning if they knew the subject, culture, and nomenclature well, but others would have a hard time figuring it out.

Add to that the fact that ancient Hebrew didn't have a distinction between causative and permissive verbs, and thus, a statement that "God caused some disaster" and the statement that "God permitted some disaster" would be written the same in ancient Hebrew. Much of the OT has been translated assuming the causative, but with the revelation of the NT, I believe it should have been translated assuming the permissive.

In human terms you might think badly of some parent who caused their child to fail, but cite tough love if you find that they permitted their child to fail.

What you think you know about God's character from the Old Testament is based on ignorance and much of it is not even your own.



Values you select or make up yourself may be some "code" you live by, but they are not moral values. If moral values were up to the individual then everyone is living a perfectly moral life. Moral values are imposed by one greater than yourself, which is God. Dismissing the Bible as a hoax frees you from judging yourself by God's values.



You can believe what you want and you may be right or you may be wrong just I may be right or wrong. Pascal considered this. If I'm wrong and there is no God, then I've denied myself the freedom to do as I want in this life, but death is nothing more than peaceful oblivion. If you are wrong, then you are free to do as you want in this life, but death is not oblivion and you will stand judgment before the one you have call bipolar and without the benefit of what Jesus did for believers.

I am also being judged now by human law as all people are. The difference between human law and God's law is that with human law there is no penalty if you're not caught, which leads many to break human laws and end up in prison. For those who find Christ there it's the best thing that ever happened to them and they are far more likely to stay out of prison in the future. Is that not better than living a life of crime regardless of the truth about God?

Watchman Nee told of a Chinese tad who went to a pagan shrine with his mother. Looking at the carved, weathered, cracked wooden idol, he theorized "That thing's not a god!"

He stepped outside, looked up at the sky, and said something to the efffect that "If there's a god, he's up there somewhere. That's the god whom I want to know."

When Christian missionaries came along years later and told him about God in the Bible, he exclaimed "That's the god I know!"

He also told of another man on a small island where paper was almost as rare as Mars rovers. When the went brought a scrap of paper along the ground, he picked-up a fragment of a page from the New Testament and read part of the passage about the gifts of the Spirit. Healing caught his attention. "That's what I'd rather do. How � ?"

When Christian missionaries came along years later, he was quietly going around ministering healing � by the Holy Spirit, in the Name of Jesus.

By the sovereign work of the Holy Spirit � not by reading the Bible or by listening to preachers � both men had come to know God.

I'm obliged.

You omitted and important paragraph from my quote which addresses your part about me being "ONLY AS GOOD AS... I.... WANT TO BE."

Here is the paragraph:

I am enjoying my life as it stands and don't expect anything beyond what I do on this earth. Which could be viewed as a more moral and honest existence. If I believe this is it, the big show so to speak. Then I better not murder, steal, etc...because I am being judged now and must live with the consequences.

Would it be fair to say that you answer to your own conscience?


I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, just wondering if there is more to your philosophy of life than that?

This one paragraph of yours says volumes at how you view me as a non Christian. It states that I cannot be moral unless I am a Christian. Keep thinking that.

"Values you select or make up yourself may be some "code" you live by, but they are not moral values. If moral values were up to the individual then everyone is living a perfectly moral life. Moral values are imposed by one greater than yourself, which is God. Dismissing the Bible as a hoax frees you from judging yourself by God's values. "

Yes, it would be fair to say that I answer to my own conscience, but not exclusively. I also answer to the ones around me in some form or fashion. And to a greater degree than a repentant murderer or thief, IMO.

People like that really tick me off. My Bible tells me about a loving God.

One guy like your friend does way more harm by their closed minded ass hole opinions than a thousand can do teaching a loving God.

Read Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John and you will fing the God I serve.

I'm an ordained Christian Pastor who wants more and more to head in the direction of missions. In 2003 I turned down a chance for missions in Zambia. Wasn't ready. Oh to have that chance back again. The Bible says to wait on the Lord and that is what I'll do.

Lets put it this way i don't go to Church, i don't live the Church Life Style, i cuss and swear, I have Carnival Knowledge about women on a daily basis and could kill anything that walks and not lose a min sleep over it. My question is, does this qualify me as a Christian or just a good ole country redneck boy?

I want to know more about this carnival knowledge of women. I think there is a double entendre there somewhere.

So true. You can't have one without the other.

Interesting post..I am not a believer, but science still can't really explain complex life nor can it explain self awareness/consciousness in humans. That we have "something" that differentiates us from even high order animals such as [bleep] ect is undiniable.

Personally, I think that some point in the past, humans evolved this self awareness/consciousness and it resulted in them having a burning desire to learn about, and understand the world around them.

Initially, that resulted in things being explained in terms of superstitions and in what we would term the supernatural. Eventually as our understanding and knowledge grew, it evolved into two seperate areas of quest, one being religion and the other being science.

Some folks lean more to more than the other, while for others, they are both equally meaningful.

Generally though, in most society's, as science expands its knoweldge, religious beliefs dwindle..

Lucifer and his fallen angels didn't "bite God in the ass" as God has full control over them and uses them to his own ends and he foreknew their fall. They are the opposing force necessary for God to test mankind with. If there were no evil there would be nothing to choose from. God only wants those by his side in eternity that have chosen him.



Animal sacrifice was to teach us that "without the shedding of innocent blood there can be no remission of sins". As the word says " The law was our schoolmaster to lead us to Christ". Animal sacrifices never did "cut it" but the correlation between the "lamb without blemish" and Jesus Christ being God's lamb were made understood. Without Christ no flesh was saved and before Christ there was "spiritual prison" the Word says and when Christ descended into hell he preached to those in spiritual prison offering them Heaven and eternal life.

That still doesn�t address the idea that an omnipotent, omnipresent god would know how it turned out and not need to test anybody. Reconciling preordination with free will has had folks doing back flips ever since the first time somebody actually thought about it.

YES

no one is preordained to heaven or hell. God tests us all even though he knows what our choice will be. The point is it will be our choice that puts us in heaven or hell.

In addition, we learn from the testing. You can only learn so much without being put through the wringer.

God created us with the knowledge of what our choices would be though right? How is that different than preordination?

1 Cor 1:18 For the message of the cross is foolishness to those who are perishing, but to us who are being saved it is the power of God. 19 For it is written:

�I will destroy the wisdom of the wise,
And bring to nothing the understanding of the prudent.�
20 Where is the wise? Where is the scribe? Where is the disputer of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of this world? 21 For since, in the wisdom of God, the world through wisdom did not know God, it pleased God through the foolishness of the message preached to save those who believe. 22 For Jews request a sign, and Greeks seek after wisdom; 23 but we preach Christ crucified, to the Jews a stumbling block and to the Greeks foolishness, 24 but to those who are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God and the wisdom of God. 25 Because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men.

I have no faith. If God really did create me, why did he not create me with faith?

You can only have a *choice* between heaven and hell if you have faith and believe..If you believe in these things and then reject God, as say Satanists do, then it makes sense..Otherwise not..

Same for all the folk who since the start of time who have never heard of God, or who were born and died before Jesus came to earth and did his thing..They had no "choice"..

Ditto for babies and infants who die while still very young..The NT clearly states the criteria for going to Heaven in John 3:16 and similar verses concerning being "saved" as Christians term it..Little ones who die early in life simply can't be saved, so by default therefore go to Hell?

Th Bible and Religion are the creations of man and as such their logic and content are flawed..

Just the writing of men..no more substance than any other work of fiction..

Flawed to the point of being absurd.

I'm not a very good one but I am one.

Interesting thread....I am not a church-going man, but I was born and raised a Roman Catholic. Which is pretty much the most strict of all christian religions.

I have a good friend....Rev. Larry Schwenk....The pastor of the Auburn Church of GOD. He and I have gotten into several theological discussions. He believes in God, I believe in Science. He believes in the Immaculate Conception...I do not. He believes that we will go to one of 3 places upon our demise......Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell depending upon our actions during life. I Know I am going 6 feet in the ground.

I have a Bible right here on my coffee table...I have read it. Several times. Interesting book.

It's not that I don't believe in God....It's just that I have to believe in what my senses tell me. The only way I can fully believe in God is to actually SEE him. And from everything I have read, both in the Bible and from other sources, I will only see him after I am dead.

So, If ever I see the man....I'll believe....But,I won't tell nobody....'cause I will be worm food at that point.

Pete, give Him a try. You got nothing to loose.

"And you will seek Me and find Me, when you search for Me with all your heart". Jeremiah 29:13

That's understandable.

How does your senses reconcile the fact that a swirling ball of gas, which later solidified into a rock called the planet earth, came to produce life,...which not only was able to replicate, but also became a self aware creature with the ability to harness the resources contained in that rock called Earth,..and form them into a machine which was able to carry those self aware, life bearing creatures to the moon?

To assume that human life just "happened",...you must be able to make a leap of faith tantamount to believing that a bunch of letters were thrown up into the air and formed a Collegiate Websters dictionary when they landed.

Discounting intelligent design is too far out there for me to imagine.

This body that I ride around in didn't just spontaneously happen.

It was caused.

Got evidence for that?

Evidence of a human being?

Yeah,...It's everywhere.

You can't will yourself to believe something abstract...Now if I were to see a miracle or experience something like Paul did, maybe that would change me..

On the other hand, I have to question whether I would follow a God that repeated committed genocide on his creation simply because people choose to exercise the free will he gave them..

In more earthly circumstances, if a world leader ruled / acted like God of the OT, he'd be branded a dictator/tyrant along the lines of Stalin or Hitler..

In fact if you believe in the OT, God has killed more Jews over the years than Hitler did, and to cap it all, when Hitler did come along, God then allowed him to commit genocide against his so called "Chosen People"..

Take a breath,....view something with your eyes,...pick up something with your hand,...romance a woman,...

You're experiencing a miracle.

All of the above came from virtually nothing?,...a ball of gas?,.. a rock?

That's not a miracle?

Evolution.....It took a long time, and is still ongoing.

LongBob - Yes, I omitted that paragraph but no I did not miss the point. You consider the consequences - perhaps only of society judging you. You decide what you can get away with and what you cannot. And decide to be as good as you want to be. You made my point.

TF

Evolution is by design.

A chunk of rock can't spontaneously evolve into a human being.

Years ago, thunder and lightening were attributed to various gods.

Today science explains then for what they are.

Scenic can't explain everything, and sometimes gets it wrong, but just because our current level of knowledge falls short, doesn't mean the next logical explanation is religious mumbo jumbo ..

Religion is the human mined as a closed book..science is the ongoing quest for knowledge and the expansion of the human mind..

And you made my point that you can decide to be as evil or bad as you want just as long as you accept Jesus as your savior before you die then you get the ticket into Heaven. Pretty lame in my opinion.

This chunk of rock did not spontaneously evolve into a human being. However, Life did begin on this planet....Nobody knows how....But it did gain a foothold Billions of years ago. And started to evolve.

We, Homo Sapiens sapiens are just the current pinnacle of that evolution.

If you choose to believe that a chunk of rock became *you* with no help from intelligent design,...it's your option,...

,...but I'll never be able to put the pieces together in a fashion that satisfies me.

If I strain real hard,..I *may* be able to accept the fact that a single celled amoeba was spawned from that piece of rock,...but the life force that caused it to evolve into a self aware being was planned.

Human beings didn't just *happen*.

*Life*,...*any* life,...is an incredible thing,,....even a blade of grass is a miracle.

There's a lot more going on that you can conceptualize.

To assume that all of this just *happened* is a bug's perspective,....and even the fuggin' bug is a miracle.

And you won't.

Essentially,...you're a bug,...we're all bugs,..

A bug will never understand how he came to be a bug,...

Exactly

Evolution is mans' explanation for what God did.

And what did you evolve from?

Apes......just like you did.

Okay, I'm back. Sorry for the long delay.

If you don't mind, I'd like to take a stab at your two questions by using two different posts. Allow me to predicate my words here with the fact that I don't speak for God. I don't presume to know His thoughts or reasons. The best that I can do is speculate based upon my relationship with Him, knowing His character, and what He left for us in Scripture.

I find that the best way to get to the bottom of such questions is to take them to Him directly.

I'd like to start at your second question first as that is by far the less complex one in my mind.



It's my understanding that God doesn't work within the confines of time. I know that seems like a cop out, but in my mind it wouldn't make sense for a God to have to be confined by anything other than His own rules. That kind of comes with being all powerful. I say that, because if He broke His own rules then He wouldn't be just. He can't be Holy if He isn't just and He can't be God if He isn't Holy, therefore there would be no God.

This will probably seem a bit unorthodox but I find God communicates with me in a lot of different ways. I learn about Him through some of the most bizarre means. Enter, the Karate Kid.

I wish I could make this up, but I'm just weird I guess. God taught me something about the way He does things through watching that movie. Especially Mr. Miagi's training methods.

Wax on, wax off. The kid wanted to be like his teacher, that's why he followed him and obeyed him. In his mind, he was going to learn how to fight by applying what he knew about learning how to fight to this whole training concept. What he knew about learning how to fight didn't come from Mr. Miagi though, it came from old movies, tv shows, books, etc. Mr. Miagi had his own method.

The kid thought he was being used and exploited by doing all that work on the fence. He didn't realize that the training was in the work itself. He learned that Mr. Miagi's ways may seem unfair, abusive, and wrong, but in fact, his ways were above the kids ways. He knew what he was doing, even if the kid didn't, and he had no obligation to explain himself. The whole point was that the kid just needed to trust him.

I don't know why God's timing works the way it does. I just know that He's always working on us.

When He first created man, He didn't institute animal sacrifice. Adam is said to have walked with God in the cool of the day through the Garden. Imagine your hunting buddy at camp being none other than God Himself. The Bible tells us that sin is really nothing more than us doing things our way, rather than God's way....



The Bible also tells us that sin, in effect, separates us from God...



When Adam sinned, it separated him from God. Kind of like building a wall between the two. The same happens with us. Either we walk WITH God and do things His way, or we step away and separate ourselves from Him to do things our way.

God loves us, and doesn't want to be separated from us, so this wall, or chasm between us and Him is what He so detests. Think about being separated from your loved ones by a wall. You haven't stopped loving them, but that wall is really in the way and you HATE it.

The wall has to go, but since we put it there, it's up to us to give Him the permission to tear it down. He is a gentleman after all.

Ever since the Garden of Eden, God has been living with a lost love that breaks His heart continuously. He's longed for that intimacy He had with Adam in the Garden. Man, as a result of his free will, does his own thing, and by definition, sins. We cannot unsin, as Longbob pointed out, and Scripture agrees, that if we say that we are without sin, we make God a liar.

Man cannot get back to God through any of our works. We can't unsin. That was the lesson in the animal sacrifices. God said that without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sin. So, animal sacrifices were a band-aid, temporary act to atone for our sin. The wages of sin is death, the Bible says. Something has to die, and neither God, nor us wanted it to be us that had to die. So, critters paid the price for us...

We needed to learn that nothing short of God Himself could fix the rift sin has caused. So, animal sacrifice, and Old Testament Law were there to teach us that no matter what, we were too corrupt to be perfect. We couldn't be sinless, and we couldn't unsin.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was the answer. The perfect, Holy Lamb of God, took the place of animals which had been taking the place of us, and He paid the wage of sin. Where animals were only a temporary payment (consider it interest due), the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, paid the price in full. He bought our sins. That's why animal sacrifice stopped. It was ineffectual and no longer needed.

Now, why did He wait as long as He did? Wax on, wax off, Daniel-san. Beats me, but I suspect it was so we could learn about ourselves, and about Him. He had a plan in place to redeem and rescue us all along. All of us...

What it says is that no individual can be moral if they cherry pick or invent their own values. Anyone who judges themselves by their own values will always pass their own judgment and consider themselves "moral". That thinking has given us some of the worst despots in history.

Certainly you can be a law-abiding citizen in human society apart from Biblical moral values. In that regard you have accepted society's standards as your moral values.

Why many reject Biblical moral values is because they encompass sexual relationships and conduct. It's perfectly legal in our society to live with someone outside of marriage and even have kids together. In fact, there was this reality show called "All My Babies' Mamas" that almost made it to air where this guy has 11 kids by 10 different women. It's all perfectly legal as long as he provides for those kids. As a Christian I consider that immoral, but you may not.

I do but if I told you you would not believe me!

A great way of putting it.

Try Me, I'm open to options.

I don't have anybody around to discuss religious stuff with, so I'm unloading on those following this thread who are interested...

A couple other questions that have bugged me for some time.

1) Is the Bible the "End All, Be All, Know it All" instruction manual sent from God?

Are we to obey only what is written in the Bible.?

Are there other books in existence that contain the words of God that weren't chosen by man(ironic) to be included in the Bible?

And if so, why are they deemed less important than those books in the Bible.?

2) What are the Nephilim that are talked about in Genesis.?

When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. - Genesis 6:1-4

Some of the stuff in Genesis reads almost like Greek or Roman mythology. If the OT is to be taken literally, then there was some weird stuff going on in the days of old...not to mention how did animals from Australia get to the ark..?



Thoughts.?

Dang, I got more posts today than in the last year and a half.

To all......God is Great, Beer is Good, People are Crazy.

God Bless

"Personally, I think that some point in the past, humans evolved this self awareness/consciousness and it resulted in them having a burning desire to learn about, and understand the world around them."

Evolution depends on chance mutations being superior in some way to the parents.

The first son of a bitch with a conscience would have been at a decided disadvantage to those without one.

So evolution can't explain why humans can have a sense of guilt, a sense of gratitude, or genuine love.

"Enlightened self interest" is the explanation I've heard most often in explaining it, but that doesn't get around the fact that the first "mutant" humans with a conscience would never have survived. The parents likely would have knocked it in the head.

Listening to the bible-thumpers attempt to explain away all the troublesome passages in the bible causes me to shake my head.

Listening to non-believers explain their lack of belief as being due to "scientific knowledge" causes me to shake my head and laugh my ass off.

No human can get his mind wrapped around a self-existent being which is beyond space and outside of time. Our minds are not equipped to comprehend that.

Yet some claim that if God wants to be believed in by them, He's gotta do it on their terms.Kinda arrogant, it seems to me.

They would be horrified if a congressman told Einstein that he would have to explain his theories a little more clearly so the committee could understand them, or his funding would be cut off.

But God DID dumb the deal down so a kid wouldn't miss the party. He came to earth in human form and basically said:

"If y'all follow my teachings down here, you can follow me to "over yonder" when you finish up here.

And if you need any help down here, I'm only a prayer away. But you might try helping one another first.

Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God.

Before I try to address question number one, I'll keep my promise to you and answer this!

Ok, brace yourself for a pathetically sappy response. My apologies, but we are talking about matters of the heart here...

I didn't hear some booming voice out of Heaven or anything of the sort. I don't ever get an auditory response from God, so it's a little hard for me to explain how I "hear" His voice. The best I can do is say that it's a feeling from deep within my being....

The answer I got was one of genuine, desperate, passionate love. He was longing for my heart and His was broken over losing it. I felt Him say...

"Mark, the color that I most appreciate is the color I see when your eyes look for, long for, and fall upon me."

He confirmed it here...





I was reminded of when I fell for my wife. Not only did I love her, but I lusted after her. I desired her to the core. Just the mere glance and acknowledgement of my existence from her would shake me. To have God say that He felt that way times 100 for me, has changed me to this day.

Men can come at me with their petty sciences and theories all they want, but I have a relationship that is unshakeable, with Jesus. I know Him, personally and as real as anyone can know another person. He is more real to me than anyone on the Campfire. That was all I needed....