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Originally Posted by Pete E
Now if I were to see a miracle


Take a breath,....view something with your eyes,...pick up something with your hand,...romance a woman,...

You're experiencing a miracle.

All of the above came from virtually nothing?,...a ball of gas?,.. a rock?

That's not a miracle?

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Evolution.....It took a long time, and is still ongoing.


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LongBob - Yes, I omitted that paragraph but no I did not miss the point. You consider the consequences - perhaps only of society judging you. You decide what you can get away with and what you cannot. And decide to be as good as you want to be. You made my point.

TF


The tax collector said: “Lord Jesus, have mercy on me, a sinner.” Jesus said he went home “justified.”

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Evolution is by design.

A chunk of rock can't spontaneously evolve into a human being.

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Originally Posted by Bristoe

You're experiencing a miracle.


Years ago, thunder and lightening were attributed to various gods.

Today science explains then for what they are.

Scenic can't explain everything, and sometimes gets it wrong, but just because our current level of knowledge falls short, doesn't mean the next logical explanation is religious mumbo jumbo ..

Religion is the human mined as a closed book..science is the ongoing quest for knowledge and the expansion of the human mind..

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Originally Posted by TF49
LongBob - Yes, I omitted that paragraph but no I did not miss the point. You consider the consequences - perhaps only of society judging you. You decide what you can get away with and what you cannot. And decide to be as good as you want to be. You made my point.

TF


And you made my point that you can decide to be as evil or bad as you want just as long as you accept Jesus as your savior before you die then you get the ticket into Heaven. Pretty lame in my opinion.

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This chunk of rock did not spontaneously evolve into a human being. However, Life did begin on this planet....Nobody knows how....But it did gain a foothold Billions of years ago. And started to evolve.

We, Homo Sapiens sapiens are just the current pinnacle of that evolution.


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Originally Posted by Pete E
Originally Posted by Bristoe

You're experiencing a miracle.


Years ago, thunder and lightening were attributed to various gods.

Today science explains then for what they are.

Scenic can't explain everything, and sometimes gets it wrong, but just because our current level of knowledge falls short, doesn't mean the next logical explanation is religious mumbo jumbo ..

Religion is the human mined as a closed book..science is the ongoing quest for knowledge and the expansion of the human mind..


If you choose to believe that a chunk of rock became *you* with no help from intelligent design,...it's your option,...

,...but I'll never be able to put the pieces together in a fashion that satisfies me.

If I strain real hard,..I *may* be able to accept the fact that a single celled amoeba was spawned from that piece of rock,...but the life force that caused it to evolve into a self aware being was planned.

Human beings didn't just *happen*.

*Life*,...*any* life,...is an incredible thing,,....even a blade of grass is a miracle.

There's a lot more going on that you can conceptualize.

To assume that all of this just *happened* is a bug's perspective,....and even the fuggin' bug is a miracle.

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Originally Posted by Sykotik
.Nobody knows how


And you won't.

Essentially,...you're a bug,...we're all bugs,..

A bug will never understand how he came to be a bug,...

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Originally Posted by Bristoe
Originally Posted by Sykotik
.Nobody knows how


And you won't.

Essentially,...you're a bug,...we're all bugs,..

A bug will never understand how he came to be a bug,...


Exactly grin


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Originally Posted by Bristoe
Evolution is by design.

A chunk of rock can't spontaneously evolve into a human being.


Evolution is mans' explanation for what God did.


Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!

They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
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Originally Posted by Sykotik
This chunk of rock did not spontaneously evolve into a human being. However, Life did begin on this planet....Nobody knows how....But it did gain a foothold Billions of years ago. And started to evolve.

We, Homo Sapiens sapiens are just the current pinnacle of that evolution.


And what did you evolve from?


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Originally Posted by AlabamaEd


And what did you evolve from?


Apes......just like you did.


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Originally Posted by Deerwhacker444
There's a couple of question that have been bothering me for some time which probably don't have answers, but somebody touched on one a few pages back so I thought I'd bring them up. See if anybody wanted to take a stab at em.

The Bible teaches that God is the Alpha and Omega. He knows all and is omnipotent. It states many times that we are his creation and he knows everything about us. And since the Angels were his creation, he must know everything about them as well. The following verses come to mind.


Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Luke 12:7

If this is true, then God must also know what his creation's choices and actions will be thru time, which leads me to my questions.

1) Why was Lucifer and his followers created in the first place.? God had to know when he created them that they would turn out to be bad apples. It doesn't make sense that an all powerful being would intentionally create something that he would later prove to bite him in the ass, so to speak, especially since he knows they will NEVER turn from the Dark Side and will eventually end up in Hell anyway.

2) When God created man, he implemented the animal sacrifice system that was the gold standard for generations. But at some "time" (and I don't fully understand this either) God determined that animal sacrifices weren't cutting it any longer, so he sacrificed his Son for our sins as the ultimate sacrifice. If God knew this would happen, why didn't God cut to the chase generations earlier with Jesus, like before Abraham, instead of making man go thru the animal sacrifice bit for so long.?



Okay, I'm back. Sorry for the long delay.

If you don't mind, I'd like to take a stab at your two questions by using two different posts. Allow me to predicate my words here with the fact that I don't speak for God. I don't presume to know His thoughts or reasons. The best that I can do is speculate based upon my relationship with Him, knowing His character, and what He left for us in Scripture.

I find that the best way to get to the bottom of such questions is to take them to Him directly.

I'd like to start at your second question first as that is by far the less complex one in my mind.

Originally Posted by DeerWhacker444
2) When God created man, he implemented the animal sacrifice system that was the gold standard for generations. But at some "time" (and I don't fully understand this either) God determined that animal sacrifices weren't cutting it any longer, so he sacrificed his Son for our sins as the ultimate sacrifice. If God knew this would happen, why didn't God cut to the chase generations earlier with Jesus, like before Abraham, instead of making man go thru the animal sacrifice bit for so long.?


It's my understanding that God doesn't work within the confines of time. I know that seems like a cop out, but in my mind it wouldn't make sense for a God to have to be confined by anything other than His own rules. That kind of comes with being all powerful. I say that, because if He broke His own rules then He wouldn't be just. He can't be Holy if He isn't just and He can't be God if He isn't Holy, therefore there would be no God.

This will probably seem a bit unorthodox but I find God communicates with me in a lot of different ways. I learn about Him through some of the most bizarre means. Enter, the Karate Kid. grin

I wish I could make this up, but I'm just weird I guess. God taught me something about the way He does things through watching that movie. Especially Mr. Miagi's training methods.

Wax on, wax off. The kid wanted to be like his teacher, that's why he followed him and obeyed him. In his mind, he was going to learn how to fight by applying what he knew about learning how to fight to this whole training concept. What he knew about learning how to fight didn't come from Mr. Miagi though, it came from old movies, tv shows, books, etc. Mr. Miagi had his own method.

The kid thought he was being used and exploited by doing all that work on the fence. He didn't realize that the training was in the work itself. He learned that Mr. Miagi's ways may seem unfair, abusive, and wrong, but in fact, his ways were above the kids ways. He knew what he was doing, even if the kid didn't, and he had no obligation to explain himself. The whole point was that the kid just needed to trust him.

I don't know why God's timing works the way it does. I just know that He's always working on us.

When He first created man, He didn't institute animal sacrifice. Adam is said to have walked with God in the cool of the day through the Garden. Imagine your hunting buddy at camp being none other than God Himself. The Bible tells us that sin is really nothing more than us doing things our way, rather than God's way....

Originally Posted by Isaiah 53:6
All of us like sheep have gone astray,
Each of us has turned to his own way;
But the LORD has caused the iniquity of us all
To fall on Him.


The Bible also tells us that sin, in effect, separates us from God...

Originally Posted by Isaiah 59
Behold, the LORD�S hand is not so short
That it cannot save;
Nor is His ear so dull
That it cannot hear.

2But your iniquities have made a separation between you and your God,


When Adam sinned, it separated him from God. Kind of like building a wall between the two. The same happens with us. Either we walk WITH God and do things His way, or we step away and separate ourselves from Him to do things our way.

God loves us, and doesn't want to be separated from us, so this wall, or chasm between us and Him is what He so detests. Think about being separated from your loved ones by a wall. You haven't stopped loving them, but that wall is really in the way and you HATE it.

The wall has to go, but since we put it there, it's up to us to give Him the permission to tear it down. He is a gentleman after all.

Ever since the Garden of Eden, God has been living with a lost love that breaks His heart continuously. He's longed for that intimacy He had with Adam in the Garden. Man, as a result of his free will, does his own thing, and by definition, sins. We cannot unsin, as Longbob pointed out, and Scripture agrees, that if we say that we are without sin, we make God a liar.

Man cannot get back to God through any of our works. We can't unsin. That was the lesson in the animal sacrifices. God said that without the shedding of blood, there can be no remission of sin. So, animal sacrifices were a band-aid, temporary act to atone for our sin. The wages of sin is death, the Bible says. Something has to die, and neither God, nor us wanted it to be us that had to die. So, critters paid the price for us...

We needed to learn that nothing short of God Himself could fix the rift sin has caused. So, animal sacrifice, and Old Testament Law were there to teach us that no matter what, we were too corrupt to be perfect. We couldn't be sinless, and we couldn't unsin.

The sacrifice of Jesus on the cross was the answer. The perfect, Holy Lamb of God, took the place of animals which had been taking the place of us, and He paid the wage of sin. Where animals were only a temporary payment (consider it interest due), the sacrifice of the Lamb of God, paid the price in full. He bought our sins. That's why animal sacrifice stopped. It was ineffectual and no longer needed.

Now, why did He wait as long as He did? Wax on, wax off, Daniel-san. Beats me, but I suspect it was so we could learn about ourselves, and about Him. He had a plan in place to redeem and rescue us all along. All of us...


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

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Originally Posted by Longbob
This one paragraph of yours says volumes at how you view me as a non Christian. It states that I cannot be moral unless I am a Christian. Keep thinking that.

Originally Posted by MacLorry
"Values you select or make up yourself may be some "code" you live by, but they are not moral values. If moral values were up to the individual then everyone is living a perfectly moral life. Moral values are imposed by one greater than yourself, which is God. Dismissing the Bible as a hoax frees you from judging yourself by God's values."


What it says is that no individual can be moral if they cherry pick or invent their own values. Anyone who judges themselves by their own values will always pass their own judgment and consider themselves "moral". That thinking has given us some of the worst despots in history.

Certainly you can be a law-abiding citizen in human society apart from Biblical moral values. In that regard you have accepted society's standards as your moral values.

Why many reject Biblical moral values is because they encompass sexual relationships and conduct. It's perfectly legal in our society to live with someone outside of marriage and even have kids together. In fact, there was this reality show called "All My Babies' Mamas" that almost made it to air where this guy has 11 kids by 10 different women. It's all perfectly legal as long as he provides for those kids. As a Christian I consider that immoral, but you may not.


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Quote
Life did begin on this planet....Nobody knows how...
I do but if I told you you would not believe me!

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Originally Posted by AlabamaEd
Originally Posted by Bristoe
Evolution is by design.

A chunk of rock can't spontaneously evolve into a human being.


Evolution is mans' explanation for what God did.

A great way of putting it.

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Try Me, I'm open to options.


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I don't have anybody around to discuss religious stuff with, so I'm unloading on those following this thread who are interested...

A couple other questions that have bugged me for some time.

1) Is the Bible the "End All, Be All, Know it All" instruction manual sent from God?

Are we to obey only what is written in the Bible.?

Are there other books in existence that contain the words of God that weren't chosen by man(ironic) to be included in the Bible?

And if so, why are they deemed less important than those books in the Bible.?

2) What are the Nephilim that are talked about in Genesis.?

When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. - Genesis 6:1-4

Some of the stuff in Genesis reads almost like Greek or Roman mythology. If the OT is to be taken literally, then there was some weird stuff going on in the days of old...not to mention how did animals from Australia get to the ark..?

cry

Thoughts.?

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Dang, I got more posts today than in the last year and a half.

To all......God is Great, Beer is Good, People are Crazy.

God Bless smile


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