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"Personally, I think that some point in the past, humans evolved this self awareness/consciousness and it resulted in them having a burning desire to learn about, and understand the world around them."
Evolution depends on chance mutations being superior in some way to the parents.
The first son of a bitch with a conscience would have been at a decided disadvantage to those without one.
So evolution can't explain why humans can have a sense of guilt, a sense of gratitude, or genuine love.
"Enlightened self interest" is the explanation I've heard most often in explaining it, but that doesn't get around the fact that the first "mutant" humans with a conscience would never have survived. The parents likely would have knocked it in the head.
Listening to the bible-thumpers attempt to explain away all the troublesome passages in the bible causes me to shake my head.
Listening to non-believers explain their lack of belief as being due to "scientific knowledge" causes me to shake my head and laugh my ass off.
No human can get his mind wrapped around a self-existent being which is beyond space and outside of time. Our minds are not equipped to comprehend that.
Yet some claim that if God wants to be believed in by them, He's gotta do it on their terms.Kinda arrogant, it seems to me.
They would be horrified if a congressman told Einstein that he would have to explain his theories a little more clearly so the committee could understand them, or his funding would be cut off.
But God DID dumb the deal down so a kid wouldn't miss the party. He came to earth in human form and basically said:
"If y'all follow my teachings down here, you can follow me to "over yonder" when you finish up here.
And if you need any help down here, I'm only a prayer away. But you might try helping one another first.
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Outfitter
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What it says is that no individual can be moral if the cherry pick or invent their own values. Anyone who judges themselves by their own values will always pass their own judgment and consider themselves "moral". That thinking has given us some of the worst despots in history. Certainly you can be a law-abiding citizen in human society apart from Biblical moral values. In that regard you have accepted society's standards as your moral values. Why many reject Biblical moral values is because they encompass sexual relationships and conduct. It's perfectly legal in our society to live with someone outside of marriage and even have kids together. In fact, there was this reality show called "All My Babies' Mamas" that almost made it to air where this guy has 11 kids by 10 different women. It's all perfectly legal as long as he provides for those kids. As a Christian I consider that immoral, but you may not. Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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??? So what's his favorite color..?  Before I try to address question number one, I'll keep my promise to you and answer this!  Ok, brace yourself for a pathetically sappy response. My apologies, but we are talking about matters of the heart here...  I didn't hear some booming voice out of Heaven or anything of the sort. I don't ever get an auditory response from God, so it's a little hard for me to explain how I "hear" His voice. The best I can do is say that it's a feeling from deep within my being.... The answer I got was one of genuine, desperate, passionate love. He was longing for my heart and His was broken over losing it. I felt Him say... "Mark, the color that I most appreciate is the color I see when your eyes look for, long for, and fall upon me." He confirmed it here... ...you have ravished my heart with one look of your eyes... ... you have ravished my heart with one look of your eyes... I was reminded of when I fell for my wife. Not only did I love her, but I lusted after her. I desired her to the core. Just the mere glance and acknowledgement of my existence from her would shake me. To have God say that He felt that way times 100 for me, has changed me to this day. Men can come at me with their petty sciences and theories all they want, but I have a relationship that is unshakeable, with Jesus. I know Him, personally and as real as anyone can know another person. He is more real to me than anyone on the Campfire. That was all I needed....
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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What it says is that no individual can be moral if the cherry pick or invent their own values. Anyone who judges themselves by their own values will always pass their own judgment and consider themselves "moral". That thinking has given us some of the worst despots in history. Certainly you can be a law-abiding citizen in human society apart from Biblical moral values. In that regard you have accepted society's standards as your moral values. Why many reject Biblical moral values is because they encompass sexual relationships and conduct. It's perfectly legal in our society to live with someone outside of marriage and even have kids together. In fact, there was this reality show called "All My Babies' Mamas" that almost made it to air where this guy has 11 kids by 10 different women. It's all perfectly legal as long as he provides for those kids. As a Christian I consider that immoral, but you may not. Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God. Rape? I don't recall that passage. Help a man out here and reference it for me, if you don't mind...
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
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Campfire Regular
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HJA, that was fantastic! Well done.
"Drop that or by the splendor of God I will blow your heart out." Kit Carson
"Make sure you are doing what God wants you to do then do it with all your strength." George Washington
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
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I don't have anybody around to discuss religious stuff with, so I'm unloading on those following this thread who are interested... A couple other questions that have bugged me for some time. 1) Is the Bible the "End All, Be All, Know it All" instruction manual sent from God? Are we to obey only what is written in the Bible.? Are there other books in existence that contain the words of God that weren't chosen by man(ironic) to be included in the Bible? And if so, why are they deemed less important than those books in the Bible.? 2) What are the Nephilim that are talked about in Genesis.? When men began to increase in number on the earth and daughters were born to them, the sons of God saw that the daughters of men were beautiful, and they married any of them they chose. Then the LORD said, "My Spirit will not contend with man forever, for he is mortal; his days will be a hundred and twenty years." The Nephilim were on the earth in those days--and also afterward--when the sons of God went to the daughters of men and had children by them. They were the heroes of old, men of renown. - Genesis 6:1-4 Some of the stuff in Genesis reads almost like Greek or Roman mythology. If the OT is to be taken literally, then there was some weird stuff going on in the days of old...not to mention how did animals from Australia get to the ark..?  Thoughts.? Dude!   You are going to be a fun one to share a drink with and converse about this kind of thing, I can tell. Unfortunately, there is no way that I can address all of your questions on here. I just don't have the time, or the manual dexterity (I type a whole freaking lot!) to do so. If you want sometime, PM me, and I'll hook ya up with my phone number. If nothing else, it should be good for a few laughs... You may just have to endure the sound of a crying infant in the background from time to time. My son sure likes to express his thoughts and they usually come in the form of "YOU SUCK DAD! Now change my diaper!"
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
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Campfire Ranger
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Bob, obviously we could talk for hours about this. Heck, we HAVE talked for hours about this! I'm having a hard time keeping up, via typing, but I'd love to carry on with these conversations. If you're up for it, PM me sometime and we can work through these at our own pace. You make me think, and I appreciate that.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
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Campfire Ranger
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Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God." All that O.T. stuff like the "cursing psalms" is easy to understand if you know that them old jews envisioned religion/government as all being the same.If it sounds like I'm saying some of 'em who claimed to be talking for god were really just politicians........... well, I am. But not all of 'em were. Later on, other politicians chose what would go in THEIR bible. I asked Jesus about all that stuff once. He answered;"What is THAT to you, follow thou me".[ or something close to that. ]
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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HJA, that was fantastic! Well done. Thank you... I'm surprised anyone read it actually. I get long winded and know that I wouldn't want to put the time in reading my crap! Honestly, as you well know, all the credit goes to God. He is the one that has revealed Himself to me in the manner He has done. All I am doing is sharing how He relates to me... He's pretty freaking cool... 
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
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Campfire Ranger
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Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God." All that O.T. stuff like the "cursing psalms" is easy to understand if you know that them old jews envisioned religion/government as all being the same.If it sounds like I'm saying some of 'em who claimed to be talking for god were really just politicians........... well, I am. But not all of 'em were. Later on, other politicians chose what would go in THEIR bible. I asked Jesus about all that stuff once. He answered;"What is THAT to you, follow thou me".[ or something close to that. ] I can totally see Him saying that! He did the same thing in the Bible when He came upon two religious leader debating the Scriptures. He told them "You look in these for eternal life, but it's these that speak of me!!!
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
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Campfire Regular
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"Drop that or by the splendor of God I will blow your heart out." Kit Carson
"Make sure you are doing what God wants you to do then do it with all your strength." George Washington
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Campfire Tracker
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Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God. You've made the common error of assuming God doesn't have the right to be God. If you or I pushed a button that nuked a city it would be mass murder or genocide because we are mere humans who can't know the consequences of our acts nor did the lives we took belong to us. If God destroys a city as in the OT, it's righteous judgment as all those lives belonged to Him, and even in their death God can judge them individually and show mercy to the innocent. This life is temporary and the NT teaches clearly that many of those you consider at a disadvantage in this life will enter God's kingdom easily, while the rich and powerful find it hard to enter unless they humble themselves.
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Campfire Tracker
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What it says is that no individual can be moral if the cherry pick or invent their own values. Anyone who judges themselves by their own values will always pass their own judgment and consider themselves "moral". That thinking has given us some of the worst despots in history. Certainly you can be a law-abiding citizen in human society apart from Biblical moral values. In that regard you have accepted society's standards as your moral values. Why many reject Biblical moral values is because they encompass sexual relationships and conduct. It's perfectly legal in our society to live with someone outside of marriage and even have kids together. In fact, there was this reality show called "All My Babies' Mamas" that almost made it to air where this guy has 11 kids by 10 different women. It's all perfectly legal as long as he provides for those kids. As a Christian I consider that immoral, but you may not. Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God. Bible don't indicate that any of that was endorsed by God.
Beware of thieves, scammers and dishonest members on the "Fire" classifieds. Ya there is a thief here too. Whatever!!
They're all around the CampFire and everywhere.
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Campfire Outfitter
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What it says is that no individual can be moral if the cherry pick or invent their own values. Anyone who judges themselves by their own values will always pass their own judgment and consider themselves "moral". That thinking has given us some of the worst despots in history. Certainly you can be a law-abiding citizen in human society apart from Biblical moral values. In that regard you have accepted society's standards as your moral values. Why many reject Biblical moral values is because they encompass sexual relationships and conduct. It's perfectly legal in our society to live with someone outside of marriage and even have kids together. In fact, there was this reality show called "All My Babies' Mamas" that almost made it to air where this guy has 11 kids by 10 different women. It's all perfectly legal as long as he provides for those kids. As a Christian I consider that immoral, but you may not. Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God. Rape? I don't recall that passage. Help a man out here and reference it for me, if you don't mind... Deuteronomy 22:28-29 Outlines the laws of rape. Where a man that has raped a woman must pay her father a few sheckles and then marry her. That is insane to make the victim of a rape marry her attacker! Deuteronomy 21:10-14 Here you can take a woman for your self if you have a hankering for her whether she wants to or not. Then you can send her on her way when you no longer have desires for her. Judges 5:30 Of course we must have women as part of the spoils of war. Here's a doozy. Nothing like having God on your side.... Zechariah 14:1-2 Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God. You've made the common error of assuming God doesn't have the right to be God. If you or I pushed a button that nuked a city it would be mass murder or genocide because we are mere humans who can't know the consequences of our acts nor did the lives we took belong to us. If God destroys a city as in the OT, it's righteous judgment as all those lives belonged to Him, and even in their death God can judge them individually and show mercy to the innocent. This life is temporary and the NT teaches clearly that many of those you consider at a disadvantage in this life will enter God's kingdom easily, while the rich and powerful find it hard to enter unless they humble themselves. I never said God didn't have a right to be God. I just said he was a prick.
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Campfire Outfitter
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What it says is that no individual can be moral if the cherry pick or invent their own values. Anyone who judges themselves by their own values will always pass their own judgment and consider themselves "moral". That thinking has given us some of the worst despots in history. Certainly you can be a law-abiding citizen in human society apart from Biblical moral values. In that regard you have accepted society's standards as your moral values. Why many reject Biblical moral values is because they encompass sexual relationships and conduct. It's perfectly legal in our society to live with someone outside of marriage and even have kids together. In fact, there was this reality show called "All My Babies' Mamas" that almost made it to air where this guy has 11 kids by 10 different women. It's all perfectly legal as long as he provides for those kids. As a Christian I consider that immoral, but you may not. Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God. Bible don't indicate that any of that was endorsed by God. Umm...from the above post. Zechariah 14:1-2 Lo, a day shall come for the Lord when the spoils shall be divided in your midst. And I will gather all the nations against Jerusalem for battle: the city shall be taken, houses plundered, women ravished; half of the city shall go into exile, but the rest of the people shall not be removed from the city.
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Speaking of cherry picking, you are cherry picking your own Bible. You are ignoring the messages of slavery, sexism, genocide, murder, and rape exercised and/or endorsed by your God. You've made the common error of assuming God doesn't have the right to be God. If you or I pushed a button that nuked a city it would be mass murder or genocide because we are mere humans who can't know the consequences of our acts nor did the lives we took belong to us. If God destroys a city as in the OT, it's righteous judgment as all those lives belonged to Him, and even in their death God can judge them individually and show mercy to the innocent. This life is temporary and the NT teaches clearly that many of those you consider at a disadvantage in this life will enter God's kingdom easily, while the rich and powerful find it hard to enter unless they humble themselves. I never said God didn't have a right to be God. I just said he was a prick. Lots of guys when they were young thought their earthly fathers were pricks, but many grew up and realized their fathers disciplined them out of love and they themselves were the pricks, not their fathers.
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Of course my father didn't order any genocides that I'm aware of................
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Of course my father didn't order any genocides that I'm aware of................ Nor did God. All lives belong to God so Him taking them is not genocide, nor are the dead beyond His judgment. Don't judge God's actions as if He were a mere man.
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Of course my father didn't order any genocides that I'm aware of................ Nor did God. All lives belong to God so Him taking them is not genocide, nor are the dead beyond His judgment. Don't judge God's actions as if He were a mere man. He didn't only order it, he performed it. And at midnight the LORD killed all the firstborn sons in the land of Egypt, from the firstborn son of Pharaoh, who sat on the throne, to the firstborn son of the captive in the dungeon. Even the firstborn of their livestock were killed. Pharaoh and his officials and all the people of Egypt woke up during the night, and loud wailing was heard throughout the land of Egypt. There was not a single house where someone had not died. Exodus 12:29-30 NLT
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