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It's my understanding from reading the Bible that "Abraham's Bosom" was a gimmicky name applied to a place that existed long before Abraham...

Kind of like calling NYC, "The Big Apple"...

He didn't say "No man comes to the Father before me"

He said, "No man comes to the Father, except through me."

If He did what the Bible suggests, and went to the souls in "Abraham's Bosom" then they still got there through him.

Like I said though, I don't have every answer. I don't know how God does all His stuff, if I did, I'd be God, and nobody wants that!

Paradise hmmm.... No one would have know about that section of Sheol if Jesus hadn't had brought it up to the thief beside him.

If you step back an look at what is happening then you may see how religion via the Bible (or book of your choosing) is the most vile and effective form of control that man has ever created. It is several levels worse than politics since it preys on a person's deepest most vulnerable fears.

The bipolar God of the Old Testament wasn't as effective in creating the followers so they got a little more clever and came up with a newer angle of more loving form of a higher power, Jesus. This did appeal to a far larger audience and still is today.

To keep that appeal going, the churches really have to downplay the BS, murder, genocide, slavery, sexism, and racism in the Bible and do their best to focus on the messages of good and eternal hope. Otherwise it would be difficult to extort the 10% tithing since most people can read and some even think for themselves.

That's a very liberal view of religion as in it doesn't matter what you believe, all are saved. Atheists would agree that it doesn't matter what you believe, all return to oblivion.

But the Bible teaches... "And there is salvation in no one else; for there is no other name under heaven that has been given among men by which we must be saved." -- Acts 4:12

People who were never "given" the name may be judged by another standard, but there's no one like that on this thread.

No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man. John 3:13 NIV

Okay, it looks like crazy has come to town with the intent to stay. Time for me to exit, stage right.

Ron White was right...

Completely spoken in the past tense. I see no problem with that quote...

I see your purpose here now. It's not for discussion. No point in wasting my time with you. I wish you well, Longbob.

I realize you don't see a problem there. That is a microcosm of the greater problems with the Bible.

I have zero problems with one having faith in a higher being for whatever reason you choose like coping or general peace. Faith actually fascinates me. I cannot say that I wouldn't turn to Christ or something similar if I lost one of my children. Not sure how I would cope with that. A very close friend of mine lost her son and did exactly that. She had to think that he was in a better place otherwise she would have lost her mind (her words).

What perplexes me is that someone will quote me passages from a book that they are basing their deepest beliefs, but ignore the vile parts simultaneously.

Now we're back to a discussion. That, I can do.

You won't see me ignoring any of it, and I'll do my best to answer any questions or address any confusion you have in sincerity.

I see no problem with the verse you quoted because Jesus was speaking in the past tense. It, in no way, contradicts anything anybody has said on the topic.

No one has ever gone.... three very clear past tense words there...

Up until Jesus, nobody entered into Heaven. They were in "Abraham's Bosom" or whatever it was called.

Then, Jesus made a way for both them, and us. So, in fact, up to that point, "No one has ever gone into heaven except the one who came from heaven--the Son of Man."

Where is the confusion you have with this?

I'm sorry about your friends loss...

My parents lost a daughter 10 days before her 7th birthday before I was born.

That's a loss one never fully recovers from...

I can't imagine...

For me, it would likely have the opposite effect and cause a "crisis of faith".

It all comes down to a simple question. Is God as described in the Bible real or not? If you don't believe God is real then the only purpose for your theory is to try to either convince yourself or others that the Bible is all a hoax perpetrated by men. In doing so you free yourself from all moral values you don't like, which is a powerful motivation.

I'm not going to try to convince you that God is real and the Bible is His inspired word. What I will argue is that you can't know if the God of the Bible is real or not. As a Christian I readily admit that I believe the Bible on the basis of faith and faith alone. What I will argue is that what you or anyone else believes about God is also based on faith and faith alone.

If I'm wrong I am most miserable among men as the Apostle Paul teaches, but if you are wrong, well enjoy this life.

Your statement reminds me that I was wrong. Thanks.

It reminded of Drs. Crick and Watson telling the world something to the effect that the DNA molecule is too complex to have arisen by evolution therefore spacemen brought it to this world. They called their theory "panspermia".

I really don't have a confusion with it. There is no real clarity of direction of your eternal being before the New Testament. There are parts that touch on it, but the writers realized that this needed to be addressed. They made it crystal clear that the singular path was the belief that Jesus died for your sins. No more no less.

That exposed the churches to a big problem of loss of power and control if they left it at that. All one has to do is to truly believe that Jesus was the son of God and died for your sins. You could lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc...and you would share the same afterlife in Heaven with people like you that I consider very good people. Plus, there was no requirement to tithe. Heaven forbid!!!

Enter Pope Gregory I and the monetization of Purgatory. This was a great money maker for the Catholic church. Who in their right mind wouldn't want to get their loved ones unstuck from that place when it only cost money?

Thank you.

I see real clarity of direction all throughout the Bible. Your history isn't entirely accurate, though some of your points are valid.



There has always been a requirement for repentance. That is, stop sinning and start obeying God. You couldn't lie, cheat, steal, murder, etc and share the same afterlife in Heaven with any person. You always had to repent.

It never was a thing to change a sinful act into a non-issue. Even Moses, though he had a relationship of faith with God and was forgiven, had to face his sin. God told him that he could never enter the promised land that he was taking the Israelites to.

The Bible talks about those people that were wrongfully killed as getting their justice. It talks about Judgement day being a day of weeping and gnashing of teeth. What it DOESN'T say is that that weeping and gnashing will be done only by those condemned to hell.

I fully believe, and can support with the Bible, that even those of us that have been forgiven of our sins, will have a lot of answering to do.

You're right about Pope Gregory I and Purgatory. No argument from me there.

The Old Testament certainly had the requirement of tithing, and the Jewish people that lived the Old Testament traditions certainly tithed. The New Testament has several mentions of tithing, and tithing in action. I don't know where you get that there was no requirement to tithe....

The great news (Gospel) is that Jesus can redeem even the most wretched amongst us. That there is hope for us all, but make no mistake, there is Justice for us all as well.

Lawyers joke that Justice is blind and carries a sword. Well, God has a sword too, and is just. The law is the law and not even the King is above the law.

THAT answer never satisfied me, And God has NEVER revealed to me what ANYONE ELSE should believe , or do. But.... THIS is what took that question away for me:

What if, when Jesus said that He was the ONLY way to the Father, He was introducing Himself in the same way your garbageman or postman - whom you had never met - might introduce himself if he met you at a party, or in a bar, or someplace public? He might say that he had been hauling out your garbage, or delivering your mail, for years, but you never had seen him.

Jesus may have been saying;" This is my role. This has ALWAYS been my role. It's what I do, and have done, since the beginning of time. I'm not making a new rule, here, just introducing Myself and letting you know I'll still be in the same role after I leave and until I come back."

And....... I've never found any scripture that claims a person MUST know the agent who brings him to God.

God has always cleared away any confusion in my mind about me and Him. Sometimes He provides an answer and sometimes He just takes the question away.

He NEVER tells me about anyone else and Him.

There's a couple of question that have been bothering me for some time which probably don't have answers, but somebody touched on one a few pages back so I thought I'd bring them up. See if anybody wanted to take a stab at em.

The Bible teaches that God is the Alpha and Omega. He knows all and is omnipotent. It states many times that we are his creation and he knows everything about us. And since the Angels were his creation, he must know everything about them as well. The following verses come to mind.


Before I formed thee in the belly I knew thee; and before thou camest forth out of the womb I sanctified thee, and I ordained thee a prophet unto the nations. Jeremiah 1:5

But even the very hairs of your head are all numbered. Fear not therefore: ye are of more value than many sparrows. Luke 12:7

If this is true, then God must also know what his creation's choices and actions will be thru time, which leads me to my questions.

1) Why was Lucifer and his followers created in the first place.? God had to know when he created them that they would turn out to be bad apples. It doesn't make sense that an all powerful being would intentionally create something that he would later prove to bite him in the ass, so to speak, especially since he knows they will NEVER turn from the Dark Side and will eventually end up in Hell anyway.

2) When God created man, he implemented the animal sacrifice system that was the gold standard for generations. But at some "time" (and I don't fully understand this either) God determined that animal sacrifices weren't cutting it any longer, so he sacrificed his Son for our sins as the ultimate sacrifice. If God knew this would happen, why didn't God cut to the chase generations earlier with Jesus, like before Abraham, instead of making man go thru the animal sacrifice bit for so long.?

Longbob
A lot of the old testement is difficult for me.I am still learning and getting to know God and it's been 17 years since I was saved.I won't say that any scripture is false but when only looked at on the surface it does sometimes give a false impression.All scripture must be interpreted with other scripture.It also must be interpreted according to the revealtion of that time frame.For instance when Jesus would say"You have heard it said,an eye for an eye,but I say unto you,love your enemies...." Then there is sometimes a chrisis of translation.If you continue in his word,you will know the truth,and the truth will make you free.

Given the small ammount of space and time available here,I can only say that to know God requires more than just a quick look.It also requires a relationship in which you can even ask God what he ment when he said.......It's a life long commitment.

I like your approach curdog! Of course it's possible to pick it apart by doing some Bible thumping, but you've really touched on something that was important for me to grasp.

I was VERY religious in my younger years. I mean, I made God my life. I would preach (seriously, at 16 I was preaching to seasoned Youth Leaders about doing youth ministry), I would evangelize (saw 600 teens come to Jesus one night near Buffalo), I mean I went all out.

God did a lot of pretty amazing things in that time.

I eventually was invited into full time ministry. If you have done any Bible reading, you'll notice that anytime somebody starts to follow Jesus, He does some house cleaning on their character. I discovered that my character was a mess. It was so bad in fact that I pulled a Jonah and ran from God. That's actually sort of how I ended up in the Army.

I learned that I was the biggest hypocrite ever! I would always preach about the difference between Religion and Relationship, but what I learned is that I had a religion and no relationship.

This made me really question if God, in fact, could actually be known. Was a relationship possible or was it all religion?

I remembered the verse from Proverbs that said, "Lean not on your own understanding, but in all your ways, acknowledge God, and He will direct your path."

Lean not on my own understanding? Alright, game on! I rejected anything and everything I "knew" about God. I wasn't going to use any of those means to approach Him. If He was real, then He would keep His word.

No more Bible reading, no more Church, no more praying, no nothin'! I was done.

I got to thinking, that if God was real, and knowable, and if His Bible was true, and we were made in His likeness, then we should be able to know Him just like we know each other.

So, I took it to a real juvenile level. I was mad that there was no relationship. I was mad that I was duped by a religion. I was mad at myself for being a fool, and if there was a God, then I was going to give Him a piece of my mind. I was going to prove He didn't exist once and for all to my satisfaction.

I glared toward the heavens and said, quite aloud actually, and none too politely, "If you're so real, and knowable, then you have likes and dislikes. So, what's your favorite color!?"

I knew I had this God thing cornered then. If He was to answer it, then He was real. Surely if he was real, and created everything and said everything was good, that He'd not have a favorite color. That would be ridiculous...

I wasn't prepared for what happened. It wasn't instantly. As a matter of fact I think it was a few days later, but I got an answer. An unmistakable answer, and it changed my life.

The picture you paint of meeting Jesus at a party or in a bar fits in line with my understanding of Him. He's real, and He enjoys life. Thanks for sharing, curdog.

Deerwhacker, I'd love the opportunity to address your questions, as they are stellar one's and one's that I too have had.

I have to run to class right now (World History from 1500 to Present) but when I return, I'll give it a shot, if you haven't received a satisfactory answer before then.