|
|
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529
Campfire Tracker
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2010
Posts: 3,529 |
What about the free will of the 6 million that were murdered? Was it God's will that they perish in a most heinous way to fulfill prophecy? Did those that were murdered petition the lord with prayer for a different fate? What about their free will? Many Jews saw the signs and used their free will to get out of Germany, however, the exercise of free will doesn't guarantee an outcome. As for prayer, a person's free will is not denied if they don't get the answer they want. A parent not letting their young child play with power tools doesn't deny that child their free will, only their free action. As for this notion of murder, all lives belong to God and He sets the number of each person's days. By the definition of some on this thread, God setting the number of a person's days is murder. If so, that leads to the absurd notion that God has murdered everyone. You can't judge God's actions as if He were a man. For who is Biblical prophecy for anyway? If for Man, couldn't a merciful God do something else to achieve the same effect with a lot less mayhem? Fulfillment of Biblical prophecy demonstrates the authenticity of scripture being the word of God. The fulfillment of many OT prophecies by Jesus demonstrates His authenticity as the Christ. "And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts," -- 2 Peter 1:19 As for God doing "something else to achieve the same effect with a lot less mayhem", the answer is no. There is a perfectly coherent explanation for the mayhem, but you would have to apply your God given brain to long hours of study. What are the odds of that? All that verbiage and it boils down to this: MacLorry argues that Hitler�s murder of 6 million people was a God mediated plan. The days of the murdered were already numbered. The murders were sanctioned by God from the beginning of the beginning. If this is the case, shouldn�t Hitler get a free pass? Why should Hitler bear any responsibility for the Holocaust? Hitler was but an actor in a series of inevitable events for the recreation of Israel as Biblical prophesy demands. Nazi apologist comes to mind. MacLorry�s version of Man�s relationship to God resembles a liberal political philosophy. Why should there be personal responsibility when a higher power is in charge? It's funny how you've gone into broadcast mode rather than addressing me in the first person. Maybe there's something to it, so I'll give it a try and see. carbon12 argues spiritual questions like free will and destiny, but has an obvious lack of biblical knowledge and understanding. If that were not the case he would have realized that the Apostle Paul rhetorically posed and answered the vary question about someone getting a free pass if their actions were part of God's plan. If carbon12 were sincerely interested in gaining such understanding he would only have to read the Bible. carbon12 greatly underestimates the wisdom, power, and love of God. Little does he realize that he too is part of God's plan. Specifically, God's plan is that the world through its wisdom cannot come to know God. To accomplish that God created the world in such as way that the intellectually proud would be fooled into thinking they found some natural mechanism that explains creation. On the last day carbon12 and others will ask why they don't get a free pass being it was God's plan to set aside the wisdom of man by sending them on a wild goose chase. God may tell them "I gave you free will and it was My hope that you would use it to humble yourself and simply accept the Gospel message on faith. It's the one thing every person can do, so you are without excuse." Even Hitler could have turned from his ways and been saved in the end, such is the power of what Jesus did on the cross.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 |
There is no such thing as free will.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,999
Campfire Tracker
|
|
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 4,999 |
What about the free will of the 6 million that were murdered? Was it God's will that they perish in a most heinous way to fulfill prophecy? Did those that were murdered petition the lord with prayer for a different fate? What about their free will? Many Jews saw the signs and used their free will to get out of Germany, however, the exercise of free will doesn't guarantee an outcome. As for prayer, a person's free will is not denied if they don't get the answer they want. A parent not letting their young child play with power tools doesn't deny that child their free will, only their free action. As for this notion of murder, all lives belong to God and He sets the number of each person's days. By the definition of some on this thread, God setting the number of a person's days is murder. If so, that leads to the absurd notion that God has murdered everyone. You can't judge God's actions as if He were a man. For who is Biblical prophecy for anyway? If for Man, couldn't a merciful God do something else to achieve the same effect with a lot less mayhem? Fulfillment of Biblical prophecy demonstrates the authenticity of scripture being the word of God. The fulfillment of many OT prophecies by Jesus demonstrates His authenticity as the Christ. "And we have something more sure, the prophetic word, to which you will do well to pay attention as to a lamp shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts," -- 2 Peter 1:19 As for God doing "something else to achieve the same effect with a lot less mayhem", the answer is no. There is a perfectly coherent explanation for the mayhem, but you would have to apply your God given brain to long hours of study. What are the odds of that? All that verbiage and it boils down to this: MacLorry argues that Hitler�s murder of 6 million people was a God mediated plan. The days of the murdered were already numbered. The murders were sanctioned by God from the beginning of the beginning. If this is the case, shouldn�t Hitler get a free pass? Why should Hitler bear any responsibility for the Holocaust? Hitler was but an actor in a series of inevitable events for the recreation of Israel as Biblical prophesy demands. Nazi apologist comes to mind. MacLorry�s version of Man�s relationship to God resembles a liberal political philosophy. Why should there be personal responsibility when a higher power is in charge? It's funny how you've gone into broadcast mode rather than addressing me in the first person. Maybe there's something to it, so I'll give it a try and see. carbon12 argues spiritual questions like free will and destiny, but has an obvious lack of biblical knowledge and understanding. If that were not the case he would have realized that the Apostle Paul rhetorically posed and answered the vary question about someone getting a free pass if their actions were part of God's plan. If carbon12 were sincerely interested in gaining such understanding he would only have to read the Bible. carbon12 greatly underestimates the wisdom, power, and love of God. Little does he realize that he too is part of God's plan. Specifically, God's plan is that the world through its wisdom cannot come to know God. To accomplish that God created the world in such as way that the intellectually proud would be fooled into thinking they found some natural mechanism that explains creation. On the last day carbon12 and others will ask why they don't get a free pass being it was God's plan to set aside the wisdom of man by sending them on a wild goose chase. God may tell them "I gave you free will and it was My hope that you would use it to humble yourself and simply accept the Gospel message on faith. It's the one thing every person can do, so you are without excuse." Even Hitler could have turned from his ways and been saved in the end, such is the power of what Jesus did on the cross. According to you, God made me do it. Have fun with that.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 |
God made you to do it before the foundation of the world. Since we are neither saved nor lost by works it's a moot point.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,740 Likes: 3
Campfire 'Bwana
|
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2002
Posts: 33,740 Likes: 3 |
I'm perfectly content to let Jesus decide � not all the "I am" claimants nor any of the self-appointed "you ain't" judgers.
How many ways into the kingdom of God are there? Here too, I'm perfectly content to let only Him decide. I'm pretty sure that others' opinions don't overrule His decrees regarding the matter.
I don't recall that He was ever reticent about either matter, either.
But those are just a couple of my opinions. For some, including a number here that will never advertise it, it simply does not matter...
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,901 Likes: 6
Campfire 'Bwana
|
Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 38,901 Likes: 6 |
There is no such thing as free will. I know that there at least is such a thing as a "free-will offering" because the Ks of C have one in conjunction with their pancake breakfast.
Not a real member - just an ordinary guy who appreciates being able to hang around and say something once in awhile.
Happily Trapped In the Past (Thanks, Joe)
Not only a less than minimally educated person, but stupid and out of touch as well.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 20,494
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2003
Posts: 20,494 |
There is no such thing as free will. Then it was foreordained before the foundation of the earth that I would call you an idiot, so it cannot be wrong.
"Keep thy heart with all diligence; for out of it are the issues of life." (Prov 4:23)
Brother Keith
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864 |
There is no such thing as free will. Then there is no such thing as sin.  You should look up how many times the words "choose", "chose", and "choice" are used throughout Scripture. You can't have a choice, without free will.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
"The word of God ain't words."
I MIGHT agree with you on that if I was sure what you meant.
Care to expand on your statement?
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 |
There is no such thing as free will. Then there is no such thing as sin. You should look up how many times the words "choose", "chose", and "choice" are used throughout Scripture. You can't have a choice, without free will. You should read the entire Bible as I have many times. Read Romans 8&9 and Matthew 13. There is no such thing as free will. If there were, then we'd be God and God would be nothing. Sin is a moot point. The original sin is why we are where we are. God doesn't care about our sins. You're either predestined to Heaven or predestined to hell and nothing can change that. Does God know everything? Can he be mistaken? He knew where you were going and what you'd do be fore you were born.I rest my case.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864 |
There is no such thing as free will. Then there is no such thing as sin. You should look up how many times the words "choose", "chose", and "choice" are used throughout Scripture. You can't have a choice, without free will. You should read the entire Bible as I have many times. Read Romans 8&9 and Matthew 13. There is no such thing as free will. If there were, then we'd be God and God would be nothing. Sin is a moot point. The original sin is why we are where we are. God doesn't care about our sins. You're either predestined to Heaven or predestined to hell and nothing can change that. Does God know everything? Can he be mistaken? He knew where you were going and what you'd do be fore you were born.I rest my case. I have read it, many times, and I still read it daily. It was my major in college.... If you read Romans 8&9 in context with the whole book of Romans, you'd see how everything you are saying is absolutely wrong... Furthermore, if you pay attention to what is written in those two chapters, even in Romans 8 portion that addresses "predestination," you'll see that it's not saying what Calvinist want it to say.... Free will doesn't make us God in the least. If anything, it makes God all that more God. You tell others to read the Bible, but your own comprehension comes into question when you say that "Sin is a moot point." The Bible is chalked full of verses that say otherwise... Does God know everything? Yep. Can he be mistaken? Nope. I knew that you were going to say this stuff, that doesn't mean that you didn't have a choice...
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864 |
It's easy to make the argument even that if predestination were true, as Calvinist believe, then there is no God...
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 |
Christians believe in predestination as the Bible teaches, churchist don't believe. Free will is taught by the church as a means of control since that's the reason churches exist.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,057
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 17,057 |
6 million lives sacrificed is hard for you to reconcile because you are just a man viewing the event through a man's eyes and understanding. Those 6 million Jews, though dead, are still alive in the presences of God and still subject to both His judgment and His mercy. God is working out the far greater plan of salvation. Stop judging God's actions as if He were just a man.
I judge God through my life 's tribulations. I should say I believe those things happened to the Jews and Job... and Job was righteous in his reaction and a good example. But it reminds me of our current politicians that don't let a tragedy go to waste, thinking they could embellish it to give glory to God. No one needs to tell me how chit can happen fast and my response may have not been the most righteous at the end... if God wanted glory he didn't get it... at first I abased myself as if it was all my fault... eventually it got so bad I told God to lay the [bleep] off of me and mine... the tribulations ceased, some things returned like with Job. Whether God figured I got some message or just abandoned me, I really don't care... Each Jew and child of Job were not some statistic in a lesson or prophesy. Kent God had been protecting Job and gave him great success in family and in material things way beyond what others received because God was pleased with Job even pointing him out to Satan. Satan thought he could make Job renounce God if God removed His special protection, which He did except for Job's life. Satan tormented Job but couldn't break him; it's what Satan does. God restored Job's family and material things. Being Satan is still at large and his focus is on the saved its likely God had nothing to do with your tribulations. Maybe at the point of you nearly committing the unforgivable sin God chased Satan away from you, not wanting to lose you to Satan. God may have been waiting for you to use the Name that is above all names to bind Satan and chase him away yourself. Job didn't have that option as that Name had not yet been given among men. Put on the full armor of God and learn how to use the sword. Satan will look for easier prey. God was responsible for Hitler and the 6 million Jews... but Satan, not God for me or Job?... if the story of Job isn't a parable and 100% true, God was ultimately responsible by giving permission with parameters. A contradiction. As far as my own salvation... The Holy spirit isn't responsible because of it's nature and Christ my brother isn't either. There was no danger of me breaking. Sometimes you have to make a stand... God probably gets sick of caterwauling, wailing, begging, false praise, rote... A heartfelt 'FU that's enough', could be refreshing I guess. Kent
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
Would those "churchists" be the same thing as the "neocons" that one of our OTHER IDIOTS is always blathering about?
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,169 Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
|
|
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 50,169 Likes: 1 |
Would those "churchists" be the same thing as the "neocons" that one of our OTHER IDIOTS is always blathering about? Be nice...he has no choice.
The only thing worse than a liberal is a liberal that thinks they're a conservative.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371
Campfire Outfitter
|
|
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2008
Posts: 11,371 |
Nope, Churchist are you that attend a brick and mortar. God isn't there and connot be there.
1st Special Operations Wing 1975-1983
919th Special Operations Wing 1983-1985 1993-1994
"Manus haec inimica tyrannis / Ense petit placidam sub libertate quietem" ~Algernon Sidney~
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 24,239 |
Me neither...... the Devil made me do it........ the first time, second time, I done it on my own...... . Thank God for Billy Joe Shaver. 
Never holler whoa or look back in a tight place
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864 |
Christians believe in predestination as the Bible teaches, churchist don't believe. Free will is taught by the church as a means of control since that's the reason churches exist. The Bible doesn't teach predestination as you and the Calvinist subscribe to. Your history is greatly inaccurate. Predestination is a new concept, and a man made one.
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
|
|
|
|
|
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864
Campfire Ranger
|
|
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 15,864 |
Nope, Churchist are you that attend a brick and mortar. God isn't there and connot be there. Psalm 139 disagrees. Where can I go from Your Spirit? Or where can I flee from Your presence? 8If I ascend to heaven, You are there; If I make my bed in Sheol, behold, You are there. 9If I take the wings of the dawn, If I dwell in the remotest part of the sea, God is everywhere...
"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams
Turdlike, by default.
|
|
|
|
|
560 members (1minute, 10gaugemag, 16penny, 06hunter59, 01Foreman400, 222Sako, 63 invisible),
2,383
guests, and
1,245
robots. |
|
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
|
Forums81
Topics1,192,544
Posts18,491,601
Members73,972
| |
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023
|
|
|
|
