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Joined: Jan 2001
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Campfire Outfitter
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OP
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 14,318 |
News tonight is still talking about that sink hole under the house in Florida a few day's ago... saying "could their be one (sink hole) forming under your house"...
Can't help wondering, and I saw a few pictures of the slab after the house was demolished, and it has continued to gnaw at me that it didn't look as if there was any wire mesh or reinforcing built into the slab...
Never would have thought it possible that just a portion of a slab would fall away like that.
Just something I've been thinking about!
Phil
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 59,136 Likes: 23
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 59,136 Likes: 23 |
I hope a sink hole opens under every stupid [bleep] house that voted for Skeeter.
Paul
"I'd rather see a sermon than hear a sermon".... D.A.D.
Trump Won!, Sandmann Won!, Rittenhouse Won!, Suck it Liberal Fuuktards.
molɔ̀ːn labé skýla
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
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� I saw a few pictures of the slab after the house was demolished � it didn't look as if there was any wire mesh or reinforcing built into the slab. � The absence of rebar was indeed strikingly obvious. And the slab looked rather thin to me. One crack'd be enough to ruin the whole thing when the ground that supported that slab gave way! And the full weight of a bed bears down on only four rather small feet, remember. Some are little more than a very few square inches. Frame, springs, mattress, husky sleeper � a good bit bit of weight there, concentrated on those four feet that surely totaled less than a square foot. Once the support under those feet gives way, the full weight of the occupied bed assumes some momentum slamming down on the slab. In time, I expect to hear some very pertinent words about the house NOT having been built "to code." 'Twould seem equal to the sinkhole in culpability. A lattice of rebar or mesh could've saved the guy.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,128 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 32,128 Likes: 2 |
I'm safe. 10 feet above sea level on permafrost gravel bar, 30 yards from the lagoon in back, pretty stiff this time of year...  Besides, I'm renting.
The only true cost of having a dog is its death.
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Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,159 Likes: 13
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: May 2004
Posts: 56,159 Likes: 13 |
Slabs and driveways are seldom reinforced with steel in Florida anymore, and haven't been for decades. They do use fiberglass fibers and now you know how well that works. I think the state standard for slab thickness (code) is 6" under a dwelling and 4" for driveways etc.
And yes, we build a lot of flimsy junk down here.
I am..........disturbed.
Concerning the difference between man and the jackass: some observers hold that there isn't any. But this wrongs the jackass. -Twain
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Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,573
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 8,573 |
Contractors cutting corners when no one is looking. My wife bought a newly built house in '84. They didn't even put insulation over the closets, no mitred corners, on and on.
House across the street was built on a small hill not large enough for the entire foundation so they bulldozed the timber to the back of the lot, covered it with dirt, and built the house over it. Now the timber has rotted and the foundation is cracking.
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 92 |
That sounds like a bundle of fun  , And a bundle of money to fix, rotting logs..... everybody is trying to squeeze an extra buck out anywhere they can, it is tough to find good help/ service these days. Not to mention the fact that here in America less and less of our youth want to get their hands dirty. Which in turn means less mechanics, welders, carpenters, and so on and so on. Of course that is only my opinion....
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 9,517 |
Gods way of correcting errors...
"wanna hear God laugh? Tell Him you have complete control now!"
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Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,167 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 59,167 Likes: 2 |
I hope a sink hole opens under every stupid [bleep] house that voted for Skeeter.  THUMBS WAY UP on that one..
Ex- USN (SS) '66-'69
Pro-Constitution.
LET'S GO BRANDON!!!
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 52,680
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 52,680 |
It is slated for all Obummer voters....it is an underworld conspiracy ........ bwaaaaaaaaaaaaahaahahaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa  did you feel that greyghost ! 
Liberalism is a mental disorder that leads to social disease.
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Slabs and driveways are seldom reinforced with steel in Florida anymore, and haven't been for decades. They do use fiberglass fibers and now you know how well that works. I think the state standard for slab thickness (code) is 6" under a dwelling and 4" for driveways etc.
And yes, we build a lot of flimsy junk down here. SECTION R506 CONCRETE FLOORS (ON GROUND)
R506.1 General. Concrete slab-on-ground floors shall be a minimum 3.5 inches (89 mm) thick (for expansive soils, see Section R403.1.8). The specified compressive strength of concrete shall be as set forth in Section R402.2.
R506.2 Site preparation. The area within the foundation walls shall have all vegetation, top soil and foreign material removed.
R506.2.1 Fill. Fill material shall be free of vegetation and foreign material. The fill shall be compacted to assure uniform support of the slab, and except where approved, the fill depths shall not exceed 24 inches (610 mm) for clean sand or gravel and 8 inches (203 mm) for earth.
R506.2.2 Base. A 4-inch-thick (102 mm) base course consisting of clean graded sand, gravel, crushed stone or crushed blast-furnace slag passing a 2-inch (51 mm) sieve shall be placed on the prepared subgrade when the slab is below grade.
Exception: A base course is not required when the concrete slab is installed on well-drained or sand-gravel mixture soils classified as Group I according to the United Soil Classification System in accordance with Table R405.1.
R506.2.3 Vapor retarder. A 6 mil (0.006 inch; 152 �m) polyethylene or approved vapor retarder with joints lapped not less than 6 inches (152 mm) shall be placed between the concrete floor slab and the base course or the prepared subgrade where no base course exists.
Exception: The vapor retarder may be omitted:
1. From garages, utility buildings and other unheated accessory structures.
2. From driveways, walks, patios and other flatwork not likely to be enclosed and heated at a later date.
3. Where approved by the building official, based on local site conditions.
R506.2.4 Reinforcement support. Where provided in slabs on ground, reinforcement shall be supported to remain in place from the center to upper one third of the slab for the duration of the concrete placement.
R506.2.5 Joints. Concrete slabs on ground shall be provided with joints in accordance with ACI 224.3R or other approved methods. Joints shall be designed by an architect or engineer.
Exception: Joints are not required in unreinforced plain concrete slabs on ground or in slabs for one- and two-family dwellings complying with one of the following:
1. Concrete slabs on ground containing synthetic fiber reinforcement. Fiber lengths and dosage amounts shall comply with one of the following
(1) Fiber lengths shall be 1/2 inch to 2 inches (13 to 51 mm) in length. Dosage amounts shall be from 0.75 to 1.5 pounds per cubic yard (0.45 to 0.89 kg/m3) in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. Synthetic fibers shall comply with ASTM C 1116. The manufacturer or supplier shall provide certification of compliance with ASTM C 1116 when requested by the building official; or,
(2) Fiber length shall be from 1/2 inch to 2 inches (13 mm to 51 mm) in length, monofilament or fibrillated. Dosage amounts shall be from 0.5 to 1.5 pounds per cubic yard (0.30 to 0.89 kg/m3) to achieve minimum 40 percent reduction of plastic shrinkage cracking of concrete versus a control mix in accordance with ICBO AC32. Independent test results using minimum six (6) test specimens shall be provided to the building official showing compliance with ICBO A32. Synthetic fiber shall comply with ASTM C1116, Paragraph 4.1.3, Type III. The manufacturer or supplier shall provide certification of compliance with ASTM C1116 when requested by building official.
2. Concrete slabs on ground containing 6 � 6 W1.4 � W1.4 welded wire reinforcement fabric located in the middle to the upper one-third of the slab. Welded wire reinforcement fabric shall be supported with approved materials or supports at spacings not to exceed 3 feet (914 mm) or in accordance with the manufacturer's specifications. Welded plain wire reinforcement fabric for concrete shall conform to ASTM A 185, Standard Specification for Steel Welded Wire Reinforcement Fabric, Plain, for Concrete Reinforcement.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 10,759
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Aug 2005
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Maybe one will form under the White House.
A true sportsman counts his achievements in proportion to the effort involved and fairness of the sport. - S. Pope
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Maybe one will form under the White House. One now occupies the Yellow (formerly White) House.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,187
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 1,187 |
Sinkholes occur in places like Florida with a lot of limestone that is subject to chemical weathering. Even a lot of rebar would probably not save the slab from collapsinig if there is a large void underneath it. If you don't like sinkholes, don't live somewhere with pure limestone.
The only cure for life and death is to enjoy the interval.
George Santayana
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Sinkholes occur in places like Florida with a lot of limestone that is subject to chemical weathering. Even a lot of rebar would probably not save the slab from collapsing if there is a large void underneath it. � Sure, if the sinkhole is big enough to gobble the whole slab. But I think that rebar or steel mesh would save a sinkhole smaller than the slab from nibbling a chunk out of the middle of the slab.
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,048
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2007
Posts: 17,048 |
Small sink holes are common here in the saturated sand, especially down along the Elkhorn River. Between springs bubbling up and underground streams from them, the sands they're a shifting.
They're made slowly usually over the course of years rather than just "plop" and down ya go. The lower a spot gets the mushier and pretty soon it's a small swamp. Sod drowns out and it becomes a permanent pond. Often a large cottonwood tree standing next to it looses footing and falls in.
I know a couple nice ones about the size of a 2 car garage I fish after flood waters recede. Not much chance of one swallowing up a house but they definitely cough up some fish.
BAN THE RAINBOW FLAG!
PERVERTS OFFEND ME!
"When is penguin season, daddy? I wanna go kill a penguin!"
---- 4 yr old Archerhuntress
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Campfire Member
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Campfire Member
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 390 |
I appraises houses in Marion County, maybe 80 miles North of the house in question. Marion County is #4 in the State for sinkhole claims and I see several houses that have them every year.
As old as that house was, and I'm just guessing circa early 1970s from its design, there's no telling what was or wasn't in the slab. Based on my experience in Marion County and assuming things were about the same down there, builders and inspectors were not as picky about little details like steel in slabs back then. When they did put steel in to code they didn't pay much attention to whether the steel was actually in the concrete or just on the ground, especially on a modest little house like that one.
I've appraised houses that had sinkholes and the owners didn't even know it until I showed them some of the things that might indicate sinkhole activity and suggested they have their houses tested. Florida is so sandy that people are used to cracks in masonry walls. They figure that every house has cracks so the cracks in their walls aren't a big deal. Most of the time they aren't.
I did one house several years ago where the homeowner didn't know the cracking in his walls was caused by a sinkhole until he woke up one night to the sound of water running in the master bathroom. He opened the door to shut the water off and half the bathroom floor, along with half the plumbing was gone. He said that was the first time he suspected the place had a sinkhole. Its entirely possible that there were indications of a sinkhole at the house where the guy got killed and the homeowner just didn't realize what they were seeing. Even if there was wire in the slab it might have been under stress for years before the actual collapse. There's just no way to know.
That slab wasn't supposed to do anything but lie on the ground and be flat. The ground was supposed to support the slab. Its like Dr. Howell said, all the weight of the bed and the man on four little points was enough when there was nothing supporting the slab anymore.
A local sinkhole contractor told me that there's a rumor circulating in his industry to the effect that a sinkhole claim filed on the house where the guy got killed was denied not too long ago. It will be interesting to see if there's any truth to that.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Report in the Tampa Tribune today--
The house had wire mesh in the foundation.
The slab appears to be thin.
The house was appearently built to code
The size of the hole would have collapsed any home built that way.
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Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 17,101 |
Rumor is in the North East. That the sinkhole was caused by hydraulic fracking.....
The government plans these shootings by targeting kids from kindergarten that the government thinks they can control with drugs until the appropriate time--DerbyDude
Whatever. Tell the oompa loompa's hey for me. [/quote]. LtPPowell
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Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2000
Posts: 29,348 |
Rumor is in the North East. That the sinkhole was caused by hydraulic fracking..... Nah! Ittuz jes' ground water � � with fluoride in it. ("ground water" � alluz makes me wonder How do they grind water?)
"Good enough" isn't.
Always take your responsibilities seriously but never yourself.
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