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Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Oct 2005
Posts: 79,321 Likes: 2 |
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Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,576
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 3,576 |
Interesting thread.
I just picked up a box of Hornady "Critical Defense" 38SPCL 110gr FTX thinking they would be the cat's meow in a snubbie Smith M-60 and then I discovered this thread.
MV is listed at 1010fps but they are not labeled as a +P load.
Anyone have experience with this plastic tipped--FTX load? Whatdayathink?
'Tis far better to walk alone than to follow a crowd going the wrong way.
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Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,702 Likes: 3
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 21,702 Likes: 3 |
That is a very handsome little 5 shooter.
"The number one problem with America is, a whole lot of people need shot, and nobody is shooting them." -Master Chief Hershel Davis
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Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,971
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 33,971 |
This is a great thread. Sure would like to see some of the gun writers weigh in on this.
I have 38s with my family ladies and always wondered what was best.
Proud to be a true Sandlapper!!
Go Nats!!!!
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,958
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 2,958 |
I shoot and carry a M60 DAO with 158 gr swc and 5.0 gr of Unique right out of the 3 rd edn Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook.Shoots to the point of aim DAO 7-12 yds.I trust my life on them and glad I haven't had to use them yet. Magnum Man
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Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,293 Likes: 7
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Feb 2004
Posts: 19,293 Likes: 7 |
I vote for the 158 SWC's as well. I use 3.2 of Red Dot. Very managable recoil for 6 fast shots in a 4" Diamond back. kwg
For liberals and anarchists, power and control is opium, selling envy is the fastest and easiest way to get it. TRR. American conservative. Never trust a white liberal. Malcom X Current NRA member.
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Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,289
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Mar 2002
Posts: 7,289 |
Steelie, I can't believe that we agree again, you moron. New and exotic is most often beaten by tried and true. Its not what you shoot that matters but where you hit that counts. JMO OMV.
Go tell the Spartans,Travelers passing by,That here,Obedient to their laws we lie.
I'm older now but I'm still runnin' against the wind
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,286 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,286 Likes: 1 |
Get this 158 grain pure lead Speer bullet: Drive that at what the book will says is 900 fps or so, understanding that you will not make that velocity in a snub. I use AA#2, there are plenty of others. That is the best you are going to do with your objective. It is essentially the same as I cast and lube, the only difference is my cheap azz. Now some are talking about expansion, you don't really want that so much. Expansion comes at the expense of penetration and penetration rules. Talk of energy dump is a fools conversation, it doesn't happen at these levels. The energy is really trivial beyond what is needed for penetration. The bullet kills by letting the blood out, quickly by causing a massive blood pressure drop. That requires a hitting a major artery, not really the heart so much because it has valves, but the aorta for example. This is why a handgun wound is so survivable, the bullet not physically cutting a major artery. All injury and death is by exsanguination, but the bullet must reach the artery in order to cause that. If a 38 spl at such a low velocity, like you get from a snub, expands then the odds of reaching a major artery are sharply reduced. Toss in clothing and the odds go way down. That's my input
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 57,494 |
All I know is 148 gr wadcutters out of a snubbie don't stop a big, pissed off raccoon worth spit. I wouldn't feel well armed with that combo. Like anything else, shot placement.... I"ve killed quite a few deer,pigs,javelinas wiht the mundane and very mild 32-30. One doe with a cowboy load in it on top of that. Probably 700 fps at the MOST....
We can keep Larry Root and all his idiotic blabber and user names on here, but we can't get Ralph back..... Whiskey Tango Foxtrot, over....
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,286 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,286 Likes: 1 |
We are not talking about killed ROST, we are talking about quickly incapacitated. If he stops fighting or dies even minutes after being shot, yet was able to continue his attack then your load and shot FAILED.
We are also not talking a rifle. A rifle fires a round that has a high sectional density which promotes penetration. Two different ball games here. The fact it that the 38 wadcutter fails to penetrate deep enough to reliably destroy major and critical arteries, simple as that. Remove the physiological effect of getting shot, such as with drugs or being enraged, and the criminal could, and very well may, fight through those shallow hits and do deadly damage. Taking out a lobe or two of his lungs doesn't get it, he is still mobile and capable.
So you have 5 rounds in a snub, you do not have the ammo to mess around with fringe crap.
Last edited by Armednfree; 03/10/13.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,214 Likes: 3
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 9,214 Likes: 3 |
I would not buy something that runs on any kind of primer given the possibility of primer shortages and even regulations. In fact, why not buy a flintlock? Really. Rocks aren't going away anytime soon.
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Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,328 Likes: 27
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Dec 2010
Posts: 19,328 Likes: 27 |
All I know is 148 gr wadcutters out of a snubbie don't stop a big, pissed off raccoon worth spit. I wouldn't feel well armed with that combo. Like anything else, shot placement.... I"ve killed quite a few deer,pigs,javelinas wiht the mundane and very mild 32-30. One doe with a cowboy load in it on top of that. Probably 700 fps at the MOST.... Four of those 148 gr wadcutters hit center mass on that coon and traversed the chest cavity. It didn't stop until the fifth shot penetrated the brain pan. I guess it can be tough to place shots precisely on a slobbering, rabid coon bent on ripping your leg off. It wasn't me doing the shooting but a lifelong best friend and yes I believe his account of the incident. He had carried that .38 spl. Colt snubbie stuffed with those wadcutter loads for years but switched to a .357 loaded with full power 125 gr. HP's immediately thereafter.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,047 Likes: 65
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,047 Likes: 65 |
We are not talking about killed ROST, we are talking about quickly incapacitated. If he stops fighting or dies even minutes after being shot, yet was able to continue his attack then your load and shot FAILED.
We are also not talking a rifle. A rifle fires a round that has a high sectional density which promotes penetration. Two different ball games here. The fact it that the 38 wadcutter fails to penetrate deep enough to reliably destroy major and critical arteries, simple as that. Remove the physiological effect of getting shot, such as with drugs or being enraged, and the criminal could, and very well may, fight through those shallow hits and do deadly damage. Taking out a lobe or two of his lungs doesn't get it, he is still mobile and capable.
So you have 5 rounds in a snub, you do not have the ammo to mess around with fringe crap. A hard cast 150 grain full wadcutter at over 860 fps from a two inch barrel is hardly "fringe crap." It's going to drive a nasty wound channel deep (between 14 and 16 inches in ballistic gelatin) into the vitals.
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Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,286 Likes: 1
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Nov 2005
Posts: 10,286 Likes: 1 |
We are not talking about killed ROST, we are talking about quickly incapacitated. If he stops fighting or dies even minutes after being shot, yet was able to continue his attack then your load and shot FAILED.
We are also not talking a rifle. A rifle fires a round that has a high sectional density which promotes penetration. Two different ball games here. The fact it that the 38 wadcutter fails to penetrate deep enough to reliably destroy major and critical arteries, simple as that. Remove the physiological effect of getting shot, such as with drugs or being enraged, and the criminal could, and very well may, fight through those shallow hits and do deadly damage. Taking out a lobe or two of his lungs doesn't get it, he is still mobile and capable.
So you have 5 rounds in a snub, you do not have the ammo to mess around with fringe crap. A hard cast 150 grain full wadcutter at over 860 fps from a two inch barrel is hardly "fringe crap." It's going to drive a nasty wound channel deep (between 14 and 16 inches in ballistic gelatin) into the vitals. If there is a non +P load that will do that from a snub I am not aware of it.
The older I become the more I am convinced that the voice of honor in a man's heart is the voice of GOD.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,047 Likes: 65
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,047 Likes: 65 |
If there is a non +P load that will do that from a snub I am not aware of it. Here you go. The secret to its deep penetration is that it's hard cast, and thus retains its shape, and thus its sectional density, all the way in.
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Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,807
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2004
Posts: 12,807 |
A handgun is a weak sister to a rifle. You can get penetration with a pistol, but you don't get penetration coupled with the secondary projectiles like you do with a rifle.
It can take time for something to lose consciousness just from bleeding, but when major parts of the nervous system are destroyed by being mashed or severed, it's a totally different story.
If you don't get penetration with a pistol, you have nothing.
Islam is a terrorist organization.
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Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,980
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Sep 2005
Posts: 2,980 |
Another vote for 158gr SWC. If I ever get through all the ones I've already got loaded, I'm going to try a 168gr Keith type SWC I saw a while back.
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,047 Likes: 65
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,047 Likes: 65 |
Another vote for 158gr SWC. If I ever get through all the ones I've already got loaded, I'm going to try a 168gr Keith type SWC I saw a while back. Recent studies of the question have demonstrated that the sharp shoulders of the semi-wadcutter don't actually do much more damage to the wound channel than does a round-nosed bullet. To get crushing and cutting damage from a sharp shoulder it needs to be a full meplat, as in a full wadcutter.
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Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,429 Likes: 5
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2007
Posts: 24,429 Likes: 5 |
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Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,047 Likes: 65
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Jun 2002
Posts: 132,047 Likes: 65 |
So if I shoot you with a dry pea from a drinking straw, and I hit you directly on your temple or over your heart, that would end the fight?
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