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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 28,246 Likes: 2 |
Barkoff, I understand your point and agree that the dilemma is a problem.
Some folks are banned from driving a vehicle, for good reason - but how do we insure that they don't drive, or own a vehicle? We can't. We merely can punish them if they disobey the ban.
People are "banned", by law or by legal order, from doing lots of things - but no one follows them around 24/7 to make certain that they abstain.
Moreover, folks who are banned from driving, etc., are not dealing with loss of a Constitutionally guaranteed right - and that is an overriding issue for most people concerned about "universal background checks". These days, there are simply too many political and social signs and threats that shout conspiracy to undermine that Constitutional right. It is the bigger issue in most minds.
I am all for sane and fair methods to insure that certifiably dangerous folks can not possess or use a firearm - but I am not willing to support potentially dangerous political agendas by accepting intrusive requirements that will restrict my rights to buy/sell/trade at will, yet not keep firearms out of the hands of bad guys.
Maybe the state/communities can just make a big list of all those folks who, for sane and legal reasons, are not allowed to possess/use firearms. Tell those on the list that they must abide by the ban, publish the list everywhere, tell the populace to pay attention to it and don't sell/give to those folks - and report violations as we see them - and set strong penalties for those who violate the ban. That's more than we do about drunk drivers or pedophiles - and they ignore bans.
When it becomes personal, I will take my chances on defending from the bad guy before I will take a chance on losing even more of a precious - and crucial - right. That is a good argument you presented right there.
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OP
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 1,349 |
My point is handle criminals properly and keep proper records and this wouldn't be an issue. Don't even get me started on my opinions of the prison system. Summary: bring back the prison farm. We agree on that. That is the one thing I would support a tax for, more prisons, longer sentences. No need for more taxes. Prisons should be self sustaining, requiring little if any additional money. But that's just my crazy idea of how it should work.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. - Thomas Jefferson
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
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Everyone is missing what barkoff is saying.
A guy went into a GUNSTORE and bought the guns.
Every GUNSTORE i go into runs a 4473 on every purchase.
Im calling bs on that story.
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Campfire Regular
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That is why we will make it SUPER illegal.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. - Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,663 Likes: 2
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,663 Likes: 2 |
My point is handle criminals properly and keep proper records and this wouldn't be an issue. Don't even get me started on my opinions of the prison system. Summary: bring back the prison farm. We agree on that. That is the one thing I would support a tax for, more prisons, longer sentences. I am glad to see you are seeing the arguments clearly. Keeping bad guys in jail is cheap compared to the alternative... As the universal background checks will require universal registration in order to enforce I have serious concerns about what the other side really wants. Registration is absolutely out of the question in my book. Then there is the other concern about whom gets to decide whether an individual is nuts. We cannot trust doctors to not kill us... how do we decide which shrinks to listen to? Of course we realize shrinks are drawn to the profession because they are curious about the voices in their own heads... And if those voices suddenly developed a left-leaning lisp...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Tracker
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Keeping bad guys in jail is no longer an option. And it ain't just Ca. In my county, we are seeing tons of state prisoners not only getting less and less time to do on their sentence, but they're doing their time in "alternative" sentencing. For most, that means staying in county jail due to a "realignment" by the state. But for some, it means doing time out of custody.
With budgets going to crap all over the country, this will get worse and spread to states not already doing it. Unless you're one of the few states that can handle a budget.
And why is a three time felon on the street? What fantasy land are you living in that you think he wouldn't? Try 6, 7, 10 time felons still out "representin." Even if you have a three strikes law, it doesn't mean every felony is counted as a strike.
For the record, I do not want more laws. We already do checks. And I believe we should for any kind of sale. Beyond that, until I commit a crime, no government entity has any business with me and my guns.
Barkoff, I see what you're saying. But what other checks do we/can we do? And why? We both live in Ca where there is no legal way to buy a weapon without a background check. Save for muzzle loaders.
Last edited by pira114; 03/24/13.
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Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,700 Likes: 4
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 15,700 Likes: 4 |
This is the work of a false flag organization designed to divide and conquer.
Remember the Obama-knobbers known as American Hunters and Shooters? They were neither. Just another false flag group to lure in the low-watt 47%ers.
![[Linked Image from i.pinimg.com]](https://i.pinimg.com/originals/98/b6/d8/98b6d863a5f722b551cd8e1440bd2bd4.jpg) Z
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Joined: Jan 2013
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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Posts: 1,349 |
The prison system is broken. Then again so is the education system.
The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots & tyrants. It is it's natural manure. - Thomas Jefferson
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Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 5,132 Likes: 7
Campfire Tracker
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Joined: Jul 2004
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They started tightening the reigns when papa Bush uttered these seemingly unimportant words.........
".....thousand points of light........"
".....new world order........"
all the stages have been set for disarmament, they will come and take them !
None of this is about crime prevention or keeping guns out of the hands of scumbags......
some folks are just too scared by the implications and refuse too believe it, but it is haunting them
"The welfare of humanity is always the alibi of tyrants".
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Joined: Jun 2008
Posts: 637
Campfire Regular
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Joined: Jun 2008
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Barkoff, I understand your point and agree that the dilemma is a problem.
Some folks are banned from driving a vehicle, for good reason - but how do we insure that they don't drive, or own a vehicle? We can't. We merely can punish them if they disobey the ban.
People are "banned", by law or by legal order, from doing lots of things - but no one follows them around 24/7 to make certain that they abstain.
Moreover, folks who are banned from driving, etc., are not dealing with loss of a Constitutionally guaranteed right - and that is an overriding issue for most people concerned about "universal background checks". These days, there are simply too many political and social signs and threats that shout conspiracy to undermine that Constitutional right. It is the bigger issue in most minds.
I am all for sane and fair methods to insure that certifiably dangerous folks can not possess or use a firearm - but I am not willing to support potentially dangerous political agendas by accepting intrusive requirements that will restrict my rights to buy/sell/trade at will, yet not keep firearms out of the hands of bad guys.
Maybe the state/communities can just make a big list of all those folks who, for sane and legal reasons, are not allowed to possess/use firearms. Tell those on the list that they must abide by the ban, publish the list everywhere, tell the populace to pay attention to it and don't sell/give to those folks - and report violations as we see them - and set strong penalties for those who violate the ban. That's more than we do about drunk drivers or pedophiles - and they ignore bans.
When it becomes personal, I will take my chances on defending from the bad guy before I will take a chance on losing even more of a precious - and crucial - right. The most appropriate statements made in this entire thread.
"There are three kinds of men
Those who learn by reading
The few who learn by observing
The rest have to pee on the
electric fence and find out
for themselves."
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Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,804 Likes: 11
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 67,804 Likes: 11 |
to understand any ad or position, just look at who paid for it.
Sam......
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Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,147 Likes: 2
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 17,147 Likes: 2 |
I know it is illegal, but how do you enforce it if not for a background check? If a three time felon walks into a gun shop and lays the money down for a .45, how do you go about finding out he is a three time felon not eligible to own a handgun?
Most here say they support keeping the guns out of the hands of criminals, I'm not getting how you prevent a criminal from walking into a gun show and purchasing a firearm he is not legal to own?
I'm asking a serious question, how do you propose we deny a firearm sale to a criminal? The way I read the article was he walked into a gun show and bought the gun. If he did so from a dealer then the dealer ran an NICS check same as a store. If the state had not made his mental health records available to the system, well, it's not equipped with ESP to determine the nut job factor. If he bought it from a guy in a parking lot there was no check, nor is there anyway in the world that we can prevent (nor should we be able to or even try to IMO). All the laws in the world do not prevent bad people from getting firearms. The NICS check has the full ability to check the information you want if the states populate it. If magic fairies jumped out my butt and instantly registered every firearm in America and then tracked and pre-approved every time it changed hands you would have just what you want for about 30 seconds until the first one was stolen. It's not reality, no sane person wants that and it can't be done. I have no idea how you think it is different.
If something on the internet makes you angry the odds are you're being manipulated
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<SNIP>The California Health and Safety Code essentially prohibits a person who is detained for mental health problems from owning a gun within five years of the detention, according to police.<SNIP>
Barkoff,
Here's a substantial part of the problem. Note that the code prohibits (according to the article anyway) ownership even if the subject is only DETAINED for mental health problems.
Upset about losing money on the basketball tournament and you take out your frustration on the wall? What happens if your neighbors already don't like you because you have a 'vicious' Golden Retriever, drive a noisy, polluting diesel pickup and look at them 'funny' when they are outside. Bingo - 911 and you are 'detained'.
It's a dangerous and slippery slope. Guy named A. Solzhenitsyn will help you understand the power of declaring someone mentally ill. Applying this via Federal code is, in itself, insane.
I agree with the other,cogent, arguments regarding background checks.
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Posts: 1,485 Likes: 2
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Posts: 1,485 Likes: 2 |
The other side of the issue is how well has gun control worked in other countries? Has it reduced crime and violence? Having the government solve the problem sounds good but it never works or at least has not yet worked. Even Biden said that the things proposed will have no effect on crime and violence. We do not need more laws that only hinder those that obey the law.
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Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,504 Likes: 21
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,504 Likes: 21 |
There isn't much I support in the way of gun control, but some of you all are a bit confusing.
On one hand you say we should enforce the gun laws we have now, not enact any new ones. Isn't this the basic enforcement of said gun laws? When somebody has been deemed unfit to own a firearm either because he is mentally ill or a habitual felon, how do you folks suggest we go about enforcing the denial of ownership if not for a background check? Because 80% of the shootings in this country are committed by gang bangers, usually with stolen guns. They won't get background checks. The mental cases who do the school shootings are actually quite rare although they are horrible. They get all the press, though. Chicago alone had over 40 murders in Jan, '13. One month in one city had more than twice as many murders than the Sandy Hook school shootings. Probably NONE of these would have been prevented by background checks. These gun laws are going after the honest citizens guns. They won't touch the real crime committing people at all.
“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell
It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,922 Likes: 13 |
After the video of this useful moron... ( notice the 'its for the children slant per usual)....there were a batch of links from this Mayor Against Illegal Guns outfit.
multiple ones were the Virginia Tech shooting Victim's parents.
Here the lame stream media can use all of these crying parents because it fits there agenda...
for when Virginia Tech occurred, for 24 hours only... they used the example of a young man, who they were calling a hero...
he was shot in the leg, and was bleed profusely, yet took an extension cord and made a tourniquet to cut off the bleeding, and then he gave life saving aid to 6 other people in the Room...
for 24 hours, he was one of the heroes put forth by the media for his actions and saving the lives of fellow shooting victims who were in shock, by administering first aid...
Then it came out that he had this knowledge and knew what to do, because he was an Eagle Scout.. and since we all know how the lame stream media hates Scouting because they won't allow gays into Scouting, the entire accomplishments of this young man were dropped like a brick.
none of this stuff is about public safety, fighting crime, stopping shooting violence... its all about disarming the American Public so that the liberal left doesn't have to worry about so many people being able to stand up and defend themselves against governmental tyranny....
Crying parents, 'its for the children', and anything else they can use to come up with excuses to grab at people's emotional heart strings...
these people are the enemy... and should not be thought of as anything less...
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 24,361 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 24,361 Likes: 15 |
That's funny. Many union Prison guards in Kalifornia make 200 thousand a year with OT yet Kalifornia is releasing violent thousands of violent felons because they ran out tax money. So where is the real problem? My point is handle criminals properly and keep proper records and this wouldn't be an issue. Don't even get me started on my opinions of the prison system. Summary: bring back the prison farm. We agree on that. That is the one thing I would support a tax for, more prisons, longer sentences.
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 24,361 Likes: 15
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Posts: 24,361 Likes: 15 |
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Paid for by Bloomberg! Nothing else to say.
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Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,899
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2005
Posts: 8,899 |
This is the work of a false flag organization designed to divide and conquer.
Remember the Obama-knobbers known as American Hunters and Shooters? They were neither. Just another false flag group to lure in the low-watt 47%ers. \ Nail on the head right here... Did anyone catch who paid for that video the OP put up??? Mayors against illegal guns...AKA Bloomberg and friends...
One man with courage makes a majority....
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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