24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 56
1
1886nut Offline OP
Campfire Greenhorn
OP Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
1
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 56
I'm looking for a way to anneal 100 new cases at a time. I'm thinking of standing them in a pan of water as usual, but instead of a blow torch doing one at a time, I was thinking of using really cold water (maybe ice water) up to about 1/8" below the shoulder, then sticking the whole thing in a pre heated oven. I noticed when using my kitchen oven to straw a knife blade I ground from an old file that I can get close to 600C. Am I just stepping back into my own oil pan with this idea?

HR IC

Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,936
Likes: 16
S
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Apr 2004
Posts: 42,936
Likes: 16
Compared to just annealing 25 at a time in an open flame of a propane torch for 8 seconds each? I'd say so..

I just let mine air cool...

Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,166
C
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
C
Joined: Mar 2001
Posts: 12,166
There's a guy over on snipershide that will anneal your cases with one of the annealing machines for a little bit of nothing. Matter of fact I think there are several guys doing it if you do a search. You just send them your cases and for a few bucks they'll clean and anneal them & ship them back to you. I think it's better just to let them do it with the right equipment than try and re-invent the wheel.

Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,311
Likes: 18
S
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
S
Joined: Jun 2006
Posts: 46,311
Likes: 18
Originally Posted by 1886nut
I'm looking for a way to anneal 100 new cases at a time. I'm thinking of standing them in a pan of water as usual, but instead of a blow torch doing one at a time, I was thinking of using really cold water (maybe ice water) up to about 1/8" below the shoulder, then sticking the whole thing in a pre heated oven. I noticed when using my kitchen oven to straw a knife blade I ground from an old file that I can get close to 600C. Am I just stepping back into my own oil pan with this idea?


If you stand them in water in an oven the brass will heat up at about the same rate the water does.



A wise man is frequently humbled.

Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,611
P
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
P
Joined: May 2005
Posts: 9,611
Just use JB's candle method and be done with it. powdr

IC B2

Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,185
C
CLB Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
C
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,185
Originally Posted by powdr
Just use JB's candle method and be done with it. powdr


+1. If you are not holding them in your fingers, you don't know how much heat you are sending down toward the case head. Candle method is perfect and doesn't realy take that much time.

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,923
RDW Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 8,923
How hot is a candle flame?


Dave

Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 2
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 2
I use a deep well socket that fits the cartridge, sometimes you have to stuff some steel wool in the base of the socket so the shoulder of the case protrudes above the socket. Light a propane torch and rotate the socket on an extention with a screw driver handle. The socket protects the rest of the lower case from the flame.


"I was born in the log cabin I helped my grandfather build"
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,789
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,789
The grain of 70-30 brass doesn�t alter significantly until minimum 572�F. 680� to 700� F. is the ideal temperature for cases. Difficult to do in an oven when water boils @ 212�F, or less. Annealing continues until approximately 1400� F., at which point brass is completely annealed and dead soft. Beyond that brass burns and is completely useless.

I've tried a number of ways of annealing. For me the easiest, fastest and cheapest is with a small propane torch. I fire up the torch, adjust the blue cone to about 1" or less, �� is optimum. Right under the flame place a bucket about a quarter full of water where you are going to drop the cases as you anneal. You're best off in a semi dark room. I work principally with the light of the torch so I can see the color of the brass as I anneal. Take a clean and polished case in your hand holding it by the base between thumb and base of the forefinger. Put it in the flame of the torch so that the neck of the case is just forward of the blue cone with the cone aimed at the juncture of the base of the neck and shoulder, and roll the case in the flame with your fingers. If you observe the color of the flame as it plays across the mouth of the case, when the blue flame starts turning orange, start rolling the case. You are principally interested in the necks and that is where you keep your eyes. You will see the brass change to a golden, orange color as you roll the case. If you started with a polished case, the shine starts getting a bit dull. When you see this dullness, it's done. You will also see a �heat ring� going down the shoulder into the body. You�ll also start feeling the heat on your fingers. Drop it in the bucket to quench it and you are through with that case. It takes only 5-6 seconds. If it turns red or cherry red, it�s too hot and you�ve probably ruined it. If you twirl well you will have a very uniform discoloration to just below the shoulder into the body all the way around. You only have to twirl about 180 degrees. I can do about 50 cases in about 15 minutes or less. If you don't heat it enough you aren't hurting anything, you just won't anneal. If you overheat, the brass gets way too soft and you've ruined it. It needs to get to 700� F. to accomplish optimum annealing. You can't hold the base when it hits 130�-140�, so you can't hurt the bottom of the case. It takes more than 400� to affect the brass in any way.

It will take much longer to set up an oven or most any other method, so I think this way is the cheapest, fastest and most uniform. I generally drain my wet brass and toss the damp cases in a tumbler with walnut shells. Comes out polished and dry in about 30 minutes, with the blue discoloration gone.


Used to be bobski, member since '01
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 2
R
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
R
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 4,007
Likes: 2
I just drop my hot cases on a towel and let them air cool. Is it important to cool them quickly by quenching in water?


"I was born in the log cabin I helped my grandfather build"
IC B3

Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,111
Likes: 6
S
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
S
Joined: Jun 2001
Posts: 19,111
Likes: 6
Originally Posted by ruffcutt
I just drop my hot cases on a towel and let them air cool. Is it important to cool them quickly by quenching in water?


Yes to anneal brass,copper, and those alloys it needs to be quenched. Just the opposite of steels that harden when quenched.

Last edited by saddlesore; 04/05/13.

If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,789
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 2,789
Originally Posted by ruffcutt
Is it important to cool them quickly by quenching in water?


For piece of mind mainly, but on smaller cases you CAN get pretty high heat towards the base which could soften the base and body. Too easy to do it versus not doing it.


Used to be bobski, member since '01
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,561
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,561
Originally Posted by Bob338
The grain of 70-30 brass doesn�t alter significantly until minimum 572�F. 680� to 700� F. is the ideal temperature for cases. Difficult to do in an oven when water boils @ 212�F, or less. Annealing continues until approximately 1400� F., at which point brass is completely annealed and dead soft. Beyond that brass burns and is completely useless.

I've tried a number of ways of annealing. For me the easiest, fastest and cheapest is with a small propane torch. I fire up the torch, adjust the blue cone to about 1" or less, �� is optimum. Right under the flame place a bucket about a quarter full of water where you are going to drop the cases as you anneal. You're best off in a semi dark room. I work principally with the light of the torch so I can see the color of the brass as I anneal. Take a clean and polished case in your hand holding it by the base between thumb and base of the forefinger. Put it in the flame of the torch so that the neck of the case is just forward of the blue cone with the cone aimed at the juncture of the base of the neck and shoulder, and roll the case in the flame with your fingers. If you observe the color of the flame as it plays across the mouth of the case, when the blue flame starts turning orange, start rolling the case. You are principally interested in the necks and that is where you keep your eyes. You will see the brass change to a golden, orange color as you roll the case. If you started with a polished case, the shine starts getting a bit dull. When you see this dullness, it's done. You will also see a �heat ring� going down the shoulder into the body. You�ll also start feeling the heat on your fingers. Drop it in the bucket to quench it and you are through with that case. It takes only 5-6 seconds. If it turns red or cherry red, it�s too hot and you�ve probably ruined it. If you twirl well you will have a very uniform discoloration to just below the shoulder into the body all the way around. You only have to twirl about 180 degrees. I can do about 50 cases in about 15 minutes or less. If you don't heat it enough you aren't hurting anything, you just won't anneal. If you overheat, the brass gets way too soft and you've ruined it. It needs to get to 700� F. to accomplish optimum annealing. You can't hold the base when it hits 130�-140�, so you can't hurt the bottom of the case. It takes more than 400� to affect the brass in any way.

It will take much longer to set up an oven or most any other method, so I think this way is the cheapest, fastest and most uniform. I generally drain my wet brass and toss the damp cases in a tumbler with walnut shells. Comes out polished and dry in about 30 minutes, with the blue discoloration gone.


Great post,
And to possibly add to it you can order Tempilaq from Brownell's and some other suppliers in a couple of temperature colors to check yourself if you are unsure of how hot the necks are getting in the flame. When the correct temp. color flashes off... get it outta the heat!!
I use 650 and 750 degree Tempilaq inside the neck of a few dummy cases when I'm setting up my annealing machine so that I have correctly set the dwell time that the cases are spinning in the flames on the case spindle. I also use a swipe of the grey 450 degree Tempilaq on the outside bottom half of the case to make sure the heat isn't reaching down to far toward the case head.

YMMV,
BD


Men ocassionaly stumble over the truth from time to time but, most pick themselves up and hurry off as if nothing happened.
- Winston Churchill-

NRA Endowment Life Member
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 4,210
Using the 400 tempilaq on case near the head would help let you know you have not over annealed


No quench here

Last edited by EddyBo; 04/06/13.
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,431
Likes: 8
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Jan 2001
Posts: 28,431
Likes: 8
From Mule Deer (John Barsness), 3/5/11:

"The method I have used for several years is to hold the case halfway up the body with my finger-tips, then turn the neck over a candle-flame until I can't hold the case anymore. The neck is then wiped off with a damp paper towel. This technique was developed using indicatir paste by Fred Barker, a retired metallurgist (and rifle loony) who wrote an article about it for Precision Shooting.

Heating the necks red makes them too soft, and quenching them in water doesn't have anything to do with annealing. Brass anneals the same whether water-quenched or air-cooled, unlike most other metals. Instead, cooling of the necks is done to prevent the case-heads from being annealed too, which isn't good."

https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._Ask_John_Barsness_Questions#Post5012754


Gunnery, gunnery, gunnery.
Hit the target, all else is twaddle!
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,185
C
CLB Offline
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
C
Joined: Dec 2008
Posts: 5,185
Originally Posted by RDW
How hot is a candle flame?


I meant in relation to the torch others are using. Torch can heat them up to much and too fast IMO. Candle method offers more control.

Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,855
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2010
Posts: 10,855
No quench required


Maker of the Frankenstud Sling Keeper
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Originally Posted by ruffcutt
I just drop my hot cases on a towel and let them air cool. Is it important to cool them quickly by quenching in water?


The value to cooling the cases is in controlling how far the heat affects the brass. Copper alloys anneal with or without quenching, but the case body will be annealed a bit farther down if you don't quench. I used a method pretty much identical to Bob338 and it works fine. Whether you can improve already good accuracy by using a "more uniform" method or not, I can't say. I know I have gotten perfectly acceptable ammo using a torch to anneal quickly.


Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,422
T
Campfire Regular
Offline
Campfire Regular
T
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 1,422
I use JB's method but with a propane torch. Takes about a 6 to 7 second count. Haven't split a neck since.

Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 302
Campfire Member
Offline
Campfire Member
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 302
Can anyone advise regarding brass life with and without annealing, and using premium brass e.g. Nosler or Norma? In other words, assuming neck-sizing and trimming every 3 or 4 firings, would you be discarding brass after 1/3 as many loadings without annealing, as with? More or less? Annealing involves a fair amount of time, so I would think the payoff would need to be pretty significant, and then would only be worthwhile with higher quality brass.

I have some W-W cases that I have loaded as many as 18 times without annealing, which is a record for me. Where I have annealed necks, it generally has not made any difference, as cases failed by head separation long before necks failed.

With the cost of premium brass, and the superior consistency of that brass, it might be worthwhile.

Thanks all.

forepaw


"Only accurate rifles (that are light enough to be carried by a middle-aged man in rough country) are interesting"
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

653 members (10gaugemag, 160user, 10ring1, 19rabbit52, 06hunter59, 1beaver_shooter, 81 invisible), 3,285 guests, and 1,177 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,194,631
Posts18,533,232
Members74,041
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.132s Queries: 55 (0.031s) Memory: 0.9125 MB (Peak: 1.0320 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-05-24 01:19:23 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS