Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns I think the 10mm would have sold much better IF...

I'd go a step further and say there are probably a lot of law enforcement officials who would not want a 10. Not just novices. If more power was the whole story, then the 454 would be the most popular LE cartridge in the US and not the 40. The 40 is just the cup of tea for those who haven't any faith in 9mm/.357 type cartridges. 10 is more versatile and more of an "expert's" cartridge, IMO anyway.

That's exactly my point. The vast majority of military and LE recruits or trainees are new to handguns.

Not unique to the FBI.



Travis

The 10mm never took off like it coulda 'cause it never starred in any action movies.

IIRC, the full power 10mm came along first, then the notorious FBI Shootout ocurred, then lots of hand-wringing over bullet performance, which then resulted in a neutered 10mm load - 180gr at ~1000fps, and the S&W 1076. There was also talk of 10mm subguns at the time, too.

The 10mm Smiths were great pistols, but big & heavy. At some point S&W realized if they shortened the 10mm, they could squeeze it into 9mm class pistols with alloy frames, which made a much nicer carry and duty weapon. With modern bullets the .40 turned out to be a good performer.

even a 22 from a Ruger LCP will work fine.

Riddle me this. Why is it many shooters consider the 10mm "overpowered" and "uncontrollable", when in fact most 10mm factory loads produce little more than .40s&w performance?

You misspelled LCR.


Travis

Because they haven't shot enough of either.


Travis

It starred weekly in the TV series Miami Vice. The mags for the weapon were so scarce that people used to swarm the sets after filming, looking for ones that had been dropped or otherwise discarded. Don Johnson's character Sonny Crockett was armed with one until they finally dropped it for the Smith 645 due to Dornaus and Dixon going into bankruptcy.

The 10mm isn't even considered anymore because most LE agencies try to use what the big boys use in the FBI, etc. and the FBI dropped it years ago. The 40 gained almost immediate acceptance and after a few years eclipsed the 9mm which had been ruling things since the advent of autopistols after wondernines started becoming available. The ammo for the 10mm when it first came out, was loaded very, very hot by Norma. I believe I still have some of the rounds somewhere. I've got some Winchesters marked "Law Enforcement Only" that IIRC, produced impressive recoil in light guns like the early Delta's or the Wyoming Arms Parker.

Because the FBI considered it so....

Plus, I've never met anybody who's shot one that considered it "uncontrollable". I remember going out to a pond and shooting my Delta Elite side by side with my cousin and his Colt Officer's Model 1911. The recoil was almost identical between the smaller gun with standard FMJ Ball and the Delta 10mm with whatever rounds I was shooting in it at the time, probably Winchester LE loads.

Terms like "uncontrollable" come up when you try and get 25 recruits hitting center mass from the holster in a reasonable amount of time.

180's @ 950 are a lot easier to train with than 180's @ 1,350fps.

Then 10mm is a gun nut round. Ain't for the masses.


Travis

I'm betting pulling the slide back was another difficult ordeal for some.....

Yea break a nail on that slide.

It all basically boils down to what Travis said. FBI recruits & agents could not handle the recoil of the full house 10mm load, thus they couldn't shoot them well enough for all the FBI Agents to Qualify with the 10mm. Period.

I have some of the old Norma FBI loads that a retired Agent gave me years ago. That load with a 200gr HP Chronographs 1400 out of my Kimber 10mm & my Glock 20.
Definately not for everyone.

I shoot a lot of full house loads out of my .44 mags & .41 mags, so I guess that makes me feel like the souped up 10mm loads are pretty tame.
My handloads for my 10mm's are a 180 gr XTP HP going 1350 for deer, hogs, & varmints here at the ranch. I also have a 200 grain LBT Cast bullet load with a maximum load of AA-9 going right at 1400 FPS that I carry while bow hunting in Colorado & New Mexico, where I might encounter Black Bears.
Buffalo Boar has 220 grain LBT type Cast Bullet load that they advertise at around 1375 fps. I wouldn't be afraid of using that load on Grizzlies, if thats all I had on me at the time.

The 10mm has now become more of a specialized hunting round or as Travis put it, a
"gun nut" round. Leave it too the FBI to screw up a great cartridge & at the same time became the start of the 40 S&W cartridge.

While the .40, or the 10mm "Lite" as I like to call it is a proven Law Enforcement duty round with lots of documented shootings to back up its claim to fame, I will stick with my old antique 10mm pistols.
15 +1 rounds of full power 10mm loads in my Glock 20 are damn hard to beat, IMHO.

After I qualified I let my instructor shoot my 45 Super and he handed it back after 3 rounds and said that it kicked too much and hurt his wrist.

I do not find that it kicks much and I find it to be very controllable, but like Travis said a lot of people can not shoot them well and training a raw recruit with one is tough.

530-268-6877

No doubt.


Travis

Yessir, 26lb Wolff springs and a buffer in an all steel 5" 1911 Springfield then go forth with Power Pistol powder 230 gr Hornady or Nosler FMJ flat point bullets in 45 Super brass and your there, run 'em to an easy 1200 fps in my Springfield TM.

Gunner