Home Forums Hunting & Shooting AR and Tactical Rifles AR kits - who is junk?

All,
Reading through Shotgun News and magazines like that and I have to wonder if some of the AR kits from J & T, Model 1 sales, etc. are good? I have 3 options: 1. Buy another AR complete and pay the 11% federal excise tax, 2. Buy complete lower and complete upper and snap together, or 3. Buy stripped lower and get a kit from Model 1 sales and maybe save money.
I am leaning towards option 2, but I do know a builder for option 3. I question the quality of the great priced varmit kit from Model 1 at times.
What are you guys good & bad stories? People to avoid?
h

humdinger,
The lower ain't hard to put together and it's pretty nice to know exactly what everything does and how it all works together. I just ordered my parts off the net. I have bought three Stag arms stripped lower from the same guy for 99 bucks each shipped. I got a RRA parts kit for 60 bucks and the stock, spring and buffer. If I hadn't bought a somewhat expensive stock, I could have done it for a smidge over $200 for the lower. The trigger's nothing to brag on, but it works. A hundred and twenty bucks will buy a good trigger. And if you put it together to begin with, you can change out triggers yourself with no problem when the money shows up.

I used a dvd that I would send you but wouldn't recommend. There's gotta be better ones out there. E4E recommended one that I would get instead if I were you. I can't recall it's name, but a search should turn it up easily. It was only a week or two ago, I think.

Anyway, I'd save a few bucks putting the lower together myself and put it back into the upper.

I've built 7 Model 1 Sales kits. I've never had a problem with them. Having said that, I know folks who've bought them, had a minor thing wrong with the way they were assembled, or a bad part, and then that person went into a complete meltdown, trashing the product in the process.

I've heard nothing bad about J&T, obtw. It's important to remember, that if your gas-block isn't on exactly straight, you may need to "gasp" loosen it and "double-gasp" straighten it!

Seriously, there is nothing wrong with M1S or J&T kits. Be prepared to replace or reinstall a cheap part, if you do have a problem. Personally, I've straightened one gas block, but have had zero problems with parts quality.

RickyD,
Where do you buy Stg receviers for $99?

All (or 120mm),
I have heard the varmit SS bull barrels from Model 1 are not that good - any truth there?

Oh... would you go 1-8 twist if you plan on shooting 55 grain and higher normally?
h

I've built 5 AR's in the last two months for friends and relatives. All five with J&T's lower parts kits and four of those with J&T uppers and one with a DPMS upper.
I think that all the LPKs came with Rock River Arms parts and I didn't have any issues with any of them. All the uppers were fine also. The 24" bull barrel DPMS upper seemed the most accurate so far but probably because it had a 223 Rem chamber instead of the 5.56 chamber that the J&T uppers had.

From this guy: http://gunbroker.com/Auction/ViewItem.asp?Item=44552003

Model 1 parts are nothing but chinese crap.

Only thing i like is their barrels, but they are made by Shaw anyway.

Just a heads up.

The parts and pieces that are rejected by the primary suppliers to our Military, have to end up somewhere.

The same applies to the parts and pieces rejected by the primary Civvie manufacturers of the AR-15.


Currently there is NOT a single producer of the AR-15/M16 family of rifles, that does not rely on outside contractors.

When you buy parts, you risk the chance of buying rejected goods.

If an assembly house such as Colt(CMMG),CMT (Continental Machine and tool), LMT(Lewis Machine and tool), sells parts, those parts are subject to the QC/QA aceptance standards for thier own contract rifles and carbines.

This is a best bet situation.

Some enterprising outsiders are also involved.

Bravo company USA
Rock River Arms
Bushmaster(AKA "Quality Parts Corp").

First tier components come from first tier companys.

Regardless of the manufacturer.


If one was to look at the situation we have now, it is in fact a Morass of flotsom and Jetsom.

The best stuff has been scrutinized and accepted to be assembled, and sold by but a few.

LMT,CMT,CMMG,BCM.


Bushmaster is near and dear to me.

But they make concessions.


Model1 is a parts warehouse.

J&T is the same.

Take a wild guess where they get parts from, and why they can sell parts so cheap.

It's one thing to build a rifle for fun.
It's another thing altogether to build a rifle that keeps the free world safe.

If you are building the thing for fun it's accepted that cost plays a role.

If lives hang in the balance, please, respect the matter.

There are crapmongers and shysters out there trying to unload junk.

E4E

"only thing I like is their barrels by Shaw" Now that doesn't say squat in my books. Shaw is one of the very last barrels I'd look to for a quality barrel. In fact Shaw and quality should not be in the same sentence.

But I'll admit that for plinking etc... they are no worse than any others.

Jeff

Rost,

Shaw barrels aren't exactly known for Match dimensions.

They are known for better than "Factory" consistency.

Combine that with acceptance QA and there is a "Better than" situation.

We ain't talking 10 ring here.

8 Ring while wallowing in mud, every time, is the matter.


E4E

Nope. I do not believe the chinese build AR15 parts. In general, parts are rejected most often because of paperwork issues. Both of the price-leaders in the industry (M1S and J&T) are parts warehouses. However, someone with the ability to measure parts and a tiny bit of mechanical skill can put together a competent AR15 from either of them.

A lot of it depends on your personality. I doubt many folks reading this forum are going to drag ANY AR type weapon into the sand-box (I have, obtw.) Having screwed with US Army issue crap since 1982, I do not have the kind of personality that requires gold-plated platinum weapons.

When people talk about "exacting military specifications" and "rejected parts" I laugh until I piss my pants. I've hauled around M16s with brand new bolts containing 1/8" rust pits, but they "met military specs."

MILSPEC is a bullshit paperwork shuffle. That is all. Forgive me if I'm not impressed with people who throw around the term MILSPEC as if it meant something.

Frankly, I'm a big fan of my depth gauge, calipers and micrometer. And, of course, my brinnell hardness tester. (aka automatic centerpunch).

OBTW, the most accurate unmodified AR type rifle I've ever seen was a M1S kit on a Vulcan carbon fiber lower, with chromoly barrel

Actually Oly arms is the only manufacturer who totaly and completely builds AR's "In House". They even build they're own barrels.
RR

Interestingly enough, I've yet to see one of the mentioned parts house guns on the firing line at matches, or winning matches consistently.

Again we are on 2 pages-- yes there are a bunch of differences. Does it make a difference to you what you get is the question? Even if Oly makes all their own stuff that only guarantees they make it all. I've seen more than 1 oly come out of the box failing to function. And exhibiting questionable match accuracy.

Now as some mention-- there are major differences-- I shoot matches, and hunt with them. 2 different needs. Some just plink-- at that point the cheapest POS will work just fine. Others shoot varmints. And that can vary as to needs. And then there are those that rely on the weapons. The one at my bedside is not a parts kit POS because my life or family may rely on it. Same as to LE folks and getting into the military side. But do LE and Military worry about accuracy? Only to a certain degree. Reliability is the key.

Many different demands.

And can you find a pitted milspec part in the sandbox?? Yep once off the main line and out into the field, there is no telling what you might recieve. Doesn't mean it came in that way, probably got that way though. Storage can cause some strange things. As can robbing parts off others to keep things up and running.

And have seen a few rifles in combat matches that resembled smoothbores more than rifles...

Jeff

You guys are in denial if you think Bushy, RRA, DPMS etc are making their own barrels. Almost all AR barrels are made by Wilson or Shaw.

If you want match grade, then you have to spend the $400 and buy a Krieger.

I didn't say RRA made its own, I don't think I did anyway.
Pac Nor for less than 400. Krieger set up correcly may be over 400 but probably double the life span. Accuracy similar, maybe a nod to the Krieger for consistency of accuracy, dimensions, and speeds.
Jeff

well in a parts house gun, ya get a quality barrel, but its not a match grade air guaged match barrel so if ya wanna buy a parts house kit that'll win matches you'll need to pay the extra 300 bucks for a custom barrel blank, plus 200 bucks for chambering, fitting, and headspacing. so now your 525.00 kit just went to 800.00 bucks and then some.
223 is right, RRA uses wilson barrels, J&T uses shaw, model1 uses shaw and harris. the best "good" barrel for the bucks is the Oly SUM, then ya have kreiger, pac-nor, and the other "big names"
RR

So you have an oly SUM barrel that actually shoots under MOA at match distances with the requisite heavy bullets reliably? Sorry I couldn't resist. I do have a friend that uses SUMs for practice barrels as they are acceptable in that role.

I've found that for a regular barrel I've had the best results with wilsons by far.
Jeff

I posted this once before, but it didn't show up.

My pitted bolt was on a new M16A2. FN manufacture.

The point I was trying to make, was that there is not a diligent inspector who accepts or rejects individual parts as mil-spec.

So, the folks who assert that J&T or M1S use "rejected" parts are talking out of their *sses.

120- I think you may be making a generalization there. Generally most quality parts suppliers or users are better than most cheapy parts houses that rely on low cost vs quality. IE you'll get far fewer bad parts from good folks, but anything is liable to happen. Just like getting a perfect part from a cheapy house.
Jeff

I have used Wilson, Douglas and several others. The Wilson was no where near the top from what I used. Granted, I have only used about 10 of them but those ran all the way from "bug-holes" to almost bad enough to send back. In the last 13 years I have now used about 1000 of the Oly SUM barrels and have found them to be the most consistently accurate barrels I have used. I am not counting some of the high-end custom barrels that I have used in small quantities.

Over the years I have had most brands of AR's through my shop, none of them always put out a perfect AR, some of them never put out a perfect AR. RidgeRunner has got it right: The Oly SUM is king of the hill, in the "good" AR barrel catagory.