24hourcampfire.com
24hourcampfire.com
-->
Previous Thread
Next Thread
Print Thread
Hop To
Page 1 of 2 1 2
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 18,215
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 18,215
What is supposed to be gleaned from this passage.?

I'm at a loss, truly a terrible story...


Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,397
A
Campfire Tracker
Offline
Campfire Tracker
A
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 4,397
Here's a commentary on the passage:
Matthew Henry commentary on Judges 11


and what does the Lord require of you but to do justice, and to love kindness, and to walk humbly with your God? (Micah 6:8)

d.v.

Musings on TDS
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
This is just an example of the Semitic practice of Human Sacrifice.

In exchange for the victory's that allowed the Genocide of two peoples, he thanked God with the murder of his own daughter.

Yep, God of Peace and Love.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,999
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,999
Originally Posted by Deerwhacker444
What is supposed to be gleaned from this passage.?

I'm at a loss, truly a terrible story...


God chooses to do things as He wants. His ways are not the ways of man.

Chapter 11

This chapter gives as the history of Jephthah, another of Israel�s judges, and numbered among the worthies of the Old Testament, that by faith did great things (Heb. 11:32 ), though he had not such an extraordinary call as the rest there mentioned had. Here we have, I. The disadvantages of his origin (v. 1-3). II. The Gileadites� choice of him to be commander-in-chief against the Ammonites, and the terms he made with them (v. 4-11). III. His treaty with the king of Ammon about the rights of the two nations, that the matter might be determined, if possible, without bloodshed (v. 12-28). IV. His war with the Ammonites, which he enters upon with a solemn vow (v. 29-31), prosecutes with bravery (v. 32), and ends with a glorious victory (v. 33). V. The straits he was brought into at his return to his own house by the vow he had made (v. 34-40).

Verses 1-3 The princes and people of Gilead we left, in the close of the foregoing chapter, consulting about the choice of a general, having come to this resolve, that whoever would undertake to lead their forces against the children of Ammon should by common consent be head over all the inhabitants of Gilead. The enterprise was difficult, and it was fit that so great an encouragement as this should be proposed to him that would undertake it. Now all agreed that Jephthah, the Gileadite, was a mighty man of valour, and very fit for that purpose, none so fit as he, but he lay under three disadvantages:-1. He was the son of a harlot (v. 1), of a strange woman (v. 2), one that was neither a wife nor a concubine; some think his mother was a Gentile; so Josephus, who calls him a stranger by the mother�s side. An Ishmaelite, say the Jews. If his mother was a harlot, that was not his fault, however it was his disgrace. Men ought not to be reproached with any of the infelicities of their parentage or extraction, so long as they are endeavouring by their personal merits to roll away the reproach. The son of a harlot, if born again, born from above, shall be accepted of God, and be as welcome as any other to the glorious liberties of his children. Jephthah could not read in the law the brand there put on the Ammonites, the enemies he was to grapple with, that they should not enter into the congregation of the Lord, but in the same paragraph he met with that which looked black upon himself, that a bastard should be in like manner excluded, Deu. 23:2, Deu. 23:3 . But if that law means, as most probably it does, only those that are born of incest, not of fornication, he was not within the reach of it. He had been driven from his country by his brethren. His father�s legitimate children, insisting upon the rigour of the law, thrust him out from having any inheritance with them, without any consideration of his extraordinary qualifications, which merited a dispensation, and would have made him a mighty strength and ornament of their family, if they had overlooked his being illegitimate and admitted him to a child�s part, v. 2. One would not have thought this abandoned youth was intended to be Israel�s deliverer and judge, but God often humbles those whom he designs to exalt, and makes that stone the head of the corner which the builders refused; so Joseph, Moses, and David, the three most eminent of the shepherds of Israel, were all thrust out by men, before they were called of God to their great offices. 3. He had, in his exile, headed a rabble, v. 3. Being driven out by his brethren, his great soul would not suffer him either to dig or beg, but by his sword he must live; and, being soon noted for his bravery, those that were reduced to such straits, and animated by such a spirit, enlisted themselves under him. Vain men they are here called, that is, men that had run through their estates and had to seek for a livelihood. These went out with him, not to rob or plunder, but to hunt wild beasts, and perhaps to make incursions upon those countries which Israel was entitled to, but had not as yet come to the possession of, or were some way or other injured by. This is the man that must save Israel. That people had by their idolatry made themselves children of whoredoms, and aliens from God and his covenant, and therefore, though God upon their repentance will deliver them, yet, to mortify them and remind them of their sin, he chooses to do it by a bastard and an exile.


The Mayans had it right. If you�re going to predict the future, it�s best to aim far beyond your life expectancy, lest you wind up red-faced in a bunker overstocked with Spam and ammo.


Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 18,215
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 18,215
The killing of his child has me perplexed.

Was the killing supposed to be a rebuke of Jephthah for making a vow about something that God already had control of?

Did Jephthah overstep his authority by making a vow and was therefore punished by having to sacrifice his kid.?

IC B2

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4

11:30 And Jephthah vowed a vow unto the LORD, and said, If thou shalt without fail deliver the children of Ammon into mine hands,
11:31 Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

11:31 is just a way to select which of his family members he would murder in exchange for his victory. I doubt he was keeping farm animals in his house, so the "whatsoever" is really "who so ever". Perhaps it was his way of making the murder random, or perhaps who ever loved him most, and hence can to meet him first.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
G
Gus Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
well, yah gotta remember the ancient Hebrews followed the Great War God YHWH, so this kind of behavior is kinda to be expected.

btw, the earliest Hebrews apparently worshipped an Earth God, but later moved their perspective to becoming worshipful of a, or (the) Sky God.


Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,999
Campfire Outfitter
Offline
Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 14,999
Originally Posted by Deerwhacker444
The killing of his child has me perplexed.

Was the killing supposed to be a rebuke of Jephthah for making a vow about something that God already had control of?

Did Jephthah overstep his authority by making a vow and was therefore punished by having to sacrifice his kid.?


Jephthah's sad mistake was as bad as any could be but he was totally committed to the Lord and could not back out of his promise. And she wanted him to honor his promise. Very often we, as men, make vows that we don't fulfill. At least he kept his word which is far more than I would have done. Many years ago I knew that I was going to die. I wasn't a Christian but I sure started praying and made some pretty outlandish promises to God as to what I would do if He let me live thru that ordeal. He answered my prayer but I didn't keep my word. God knew I wouldn't but He let me live anyway. I will always remember that deal and am ashamed of myself. My promise wasn't as outlandish as Jephthah's but he kept his. Much better man than I.

Commentary on Judges 11:29-40

(Read Judges 11:29-40)

Several important lessons are to be learned from Jephthah's vow. 1. There may be remainders of distrust and doubting, even in the hearts of true and great believers. 2. Our vows to God should not be as a purchase of the favour we desire, but to express gratitude to him. 3. We need to be very well-advised in making vows, lest we entangle ourselves. 4. What we have solemnly vowed to God, we must perform, if it be possible and lawful, though it be difficult and grievous to us. 5. It well becomes children, obediently and cheerfully to submit to their parents in the Lord. It is hard to say what Jephthah did in performance of his vow; but it is thought that he did not offer his daughter as a burnt-offering. Such a sacrifice would have been an abomination to the Lord; it is supposed she was obliged to remain unmarried, and apart from her family. Concerning this and some other such passages in the sacred history, about which learned men are divided and in doubt, we need not perplex ourselves; what is necessary to our salvation, thanks be to God, is plain enough. If the reader recollects the promise of Christ concerning the teaching of the Holy Spirit, and places himself under this heavenly Teacher, the Holy Ghost will guide to all truth in every passage, so far as it is needful to be understood.


Looks like to me that the lesson here is to way our words before we speak.


The Mayans had it right. If you�re going to predict the future, it�s best to aim far beyond your life expectancy, lest you wind up red-faced in a bunker overstocked with Spam and ammo.


Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
G
Gus Offline
Campfire Ranger
Offline
Campfire Ranger
G
Joined: Aug 2005
Posts: 26,337
at what point did the Judges writings or historical context appear in the History of the Hebrews? anything prior to that would be prologue. anything following later would also have to be placed in proper context.


Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,443
Likes: 14
Campfire Kahuna
Offline
Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 69,443
Likes: 14
Jephthah was an idiot to make such a vow in the 1st place. He said he'd sacrifice whatever came out his front door first. Did he expect a sheep to be in the house and come out to greet him?

There's nothing in this passage that says that God liked a human sacrifice. In fact, God destroyed the Canaanites for exactly that practice. This is recording history, not God's desires. The Bible has loads of examples of history that break God's laws. That doesn't mean that God condones those acts. It's just telling about the sins committed by men.


“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell

It's not over when you lose. It's over when you quit.
IC B3

Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 18,215
Campfire Ranger
OP Offline
Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 18,215
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
This is recording history, not God's desires. The Bible has loads of examples of history that break God's laws. That doesn't mean that God condones those acts. It's just telling about the sins committed by men.


Originally Posted by Bigbuck215

Looks like to me that the lesson here is to way our words before we speak.


Makes good sense.!

Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 32
D
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
D
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 32
Jephthah DID NOT sacrifice his daughter on an altar. Human beings are unclean animals. We do not have cloven hooves or chew the cud. [The ONLY "clean" human being was the Son of God who became a MAN via the virgin birth. Our fallen nature is passed down through the sperm ("In ADAM all die.) He was therefore able to be our substitute on the altar called the cross.] Jephthah made a foolish vow, but he kept it as a man w/ integrity does (Psalm 15:4c). Notice that his daughter mourned her virginity [i.e., that she would REMAIN one, "she knew no man"(11:37,39)] not the loss of her life. What this meant was that she would be "sacrificed"/dedicated to the service of God as was appropriate. She probably spent her life in service to God at the tabernacle. She would not be married and have children. This was considered a true tragedy in that, or any other Godly culture. A large family was a mark of true blessing. Notice the mourning of Hannah in I Samuel 1 & 2.

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
Yes he did.
Read the Text.

And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed: and she knew no man.



You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 32
D
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
D
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 32
YES! I read it. "...AND SHE KNEW NO MAN." THAT was the sacrifice. She would live a celebate life in service to God.

Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
Originally Posted by Dimebox
YES! I read it. "...AND SHE KNEW NO MAN." THAT was the sacrifice. She would live a celebate life in service to God.


No, it means she was still a Virgin when he burned her alive.

Here's the Vow:
Then it shall be, that whatsoever cometh forth of the doors of my house to meet me, when I return in peace from the children of Ammon, shall surely be the LORD's, and I will offer it up for a burnt offering.

Here's the murder:
And it came to pass at the end of two months, that she returned unto her father, who did with her according to his vow which he had vowed:

What did he vow?
OH, THAT RIGHT HE VOWED TO BURN HER ALIVE AS A GIFT TO GOD.

Last edited by antelope_sniper; 05/02/13.

You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 32
D
Campfire Greenhorn
Offline
Campfire Greenhorn
D
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 32
& Jephthah would have been put under a pile of rocks for committing murder.

Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
R
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
R
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
I'm no expert on the book of Judges. I've read it a few times and has always struck me an an example contrasting what humanity is with and without God.

The "Judges" are not so much magistrates as they are warrior saviors, who rescue Israel time and time again from Israel's own fallen ways.

When Joshua took the promised land, the charge was to drive out all traces of the former occupants. Joshua and his army soon lost the fervor and flavor for such a task and many traces of the former pagan cultures were left and grew back.

When we are told in judges that Israel went a whoring, that is exactly what they did, in that the pagan temples that re-emerged were stocked with temple whores and part of their religion was fornication with these girls. It was an honor and privilege to be a temple whore for the girl and family from which she came. That may start to give an idea of what temptations Israel struggled against.

So Israel would fall away from God and turn to the lure lust brings and as a result worship these false gods for the pleasures of the flesh it brought. God would withdraw his favor from Israel as a result of their backsliding, and another kingdom would come in, enslave them for a generation or several, and then Israel would come to their senses, cry out to God, Who would send a warrior savior, a judge, and help Israel defeat their enemies. This happens over and over throughout Judges. Israel never learns.

In most cases the judge, displays at least some of the typical base characteristics of humanity, which can result in his downfall or fall from the favor of the Lord. Sampson, one of the judges, is a good example of that.

In chapter 11 we find the tragic figure of Jephthah, who was born into infamy, as the bastard son from a woman who was not a wife or concubine of his father. In the seamy turmoil of the times, this was likely not unusual but in the Jewish communities, neither was it accepted. The result being he fled Israel into the land of the pagan and heathen where he lost touch with God and understanding of His laws.

But he had the talents and abilities that both Israel and God recognized were needed to prevent their enemies from enslaving them again. So Israel appealed to Jephthah, God blessed his efforts, and Jephthah prevailed. But in his misunderstanding of what the God of Israel did or did not desire, he made a evil vow to God, that God did not ask of him, and wrongly fulfilled it in his confusion no doubt that grew from his familiarity with the vain men he had surrounded himself with.

What is to be gleaned? Maybe quite a bit. I find the overriding principle in the accounts judges, is the flesh often tempts us to turn from God but when we give in to such temptations, no good ever comes of it. Another is men sent as saviors may be able to temporarily fix the matter at hand, but are all fallible and will fade or fail.

An ever present need for a real Savior was always with Israel and never appeared for the centuries the accounts of Judges spanned because Israel never made themselves ready for their salvation, knowing only the law and corrupting it and themselves.

In this chapter in particular, we find an account of human failure not at all unlike many we find among the rich and famous today and throughout history, and a return that could have been triumphant, but ended in tragedy. And every misstep due to not knowing or following God's direction. God can use anyone to help accomplish His plan and purpose, even someone like Jephthah or Balaam's ass. More often than not, he uses those no one would consider as great or accomplished. Sometimes they rise above themselves and stay in Gods Grace, having experienced the Holiness of God, and sometimes, like this account, the corruption of the flesh is too deep and the story takes a direction we don't think of as Biblical. Sometimes the most learning comes from those when we let them simmer a while, allowing the Holy Spirit to show us things we missed.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
R
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
R
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Quote
at what point did the Judges writings or historical context appear in the History of the Hebrews?
After Joshua died and before Saul became King.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
R
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
R
Joined: Jul 2004
Posts: 46,965
Quote
Did Jephthah overstep his authority
He overstepped his understand of what God desires.

Quote
and was therefore punished by having to sacrifice his kid.
He didn't have to. He chose to. Pride is a terrible thing.


We may know the time Ben Carson lied, but does anyone know the time Hillary Clinton told the truth?

Immersing oneself in progressive lieberalism is no different than bathing in the sewage of Hell.
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
A
Campfire 'Bwana
Offline
Campfire 'Bwana
A
Joined: Nov 2011
Posts: 31,073
Likes: 4
Current consensus is Judges was probably written during the Babylonian exile, during the 6th century BCE.

Ricky, nice post. I appreciate you sticking to the test, and providing a lesson that should be of value to members of a certain other religion who over act in the name of God.

Last edited by antelope_sniper; 05/02/13.

You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

You cannot over estimate the unimportance of nearly everything. John Maxwell
Page 1 of 2 1 2

Moderated by  RickBin 

Link Copied to Clipboard
AX24

402 members (1badf350, 163bc, 10Glocks, 10gaugemag, 10ring1, 1Longbow, 43 invisible), 2,026 guests, and 1,126 robots.
Key: Admin, Global Mod, Mod
Forum Statistics
Forums81
Topics1,193,216
Posts18,504,034
Members73,994
Most Online11,491
Jul 7th, 2023


 


Fish & Game Departments | Solunar Tables | Mission Statement | Privacy Policy | Contact Us | DMCA
Hunting | Fishing | Camping | Backpacking | Reloading | Campfire Forums | Gear Shop
Copyright © 2000-2024 24hourcampfire.com, Inc. All Rights Reserved.



Powered by UBB.threads™ PHP Forum Software 7.7.5
(Release build 20201027)
Responsive Width:

PHP: 7.3.33 Page Time: 0.143s Queries: 55 (0.024s) Memory: 0.9247 MB (Peak: 1.0526 MB) Data Comp: Zlib Server Time: 2024-05-11 12:29:24 UTC
Valid HTML 5 and Valid CSS