Home Forums Gear Horses and ATV's Rocky Mountain Horse

I have had the good fortune to partner up with this Gelding since he was a two year old. He is now Eight and we are still getting to know each other. 15.1 Hands and 1000lbs.+.

A picture just before a ride this morning.


Later today with my Granddaughter. An understudy two year old Rocky grazing behind, as our GSD verifies all is ok.

Good looking Chocolate. looks like he should be a gaiting fool! ;-)

That's some good looking horseflesh!

donsm70

Thanks guys.
He does gait well when there is the opportunity. Most often when we are out on the trail we are either in a slow or fast trail walk. Now that we are getting past the spring rains we will both be getting more exercise.

What's the blood in him?

Ever have him certified?

Sire: Jackson Blue out of Old Tobe/Ace/Tobe
Dam: Mason Blue out of Kilburns Chocolate Sundown/Yankee/Sewells Sam

RMHA Certfied.

I need to get busy and get the younger one certified.

Nice, very nice!

Old Tobe, Tobe, Kilburns and Yankee...

Doesn't get much better than that.

We've much of that blood too!

RM horses are not well known. I think R Roger's Trigger was a RM horse.

Yep he was.

There was more than one Trigger and I believe some of them were they were Walkers. I'm old enough that not only did I watch the episodes on TV, but they were on radio before that.

Lone Range, Roy Rogers, Red Ryder, Lash Larue, Tom Mix, Gene Autry

You and me both, Podnuh!

That's my understanding as well and that's what they said at the RR Museum before it closed. Sad day that.

The original Trigger was a Thoroughbred/Palomino grade. Trigger Jr. was a Walker. Both were exceptional Horses.

Tom Mix, Hopalong Cassidy, Joel McCrea, Randolph Scott, Gary Cooper, Ken Maynard, Slim Pickens, Richard Farnsworth, Ken Curtis, Dub Taylor.

Before about 1960 western actors could ride and they all wore different hats. The Burbank community of western people were all ex-rodeo and ranch folks famous for hellacious parties.

The closest I ever got to that crowd was the old Palamino Club in Hollywood back in the 1970s with the Sons of the Pioneers and Bob Wills' original band.

OK so now I'd really like to get to the bottom of this.

The Trigger that is "stuffed" is reportedly a Rocky.

I haven't heard that. You've peaked my curiosity.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/What_breed_of_horse_is_Roy_Rogers_Trigger

This says the original was a Thoroughbred cross and the 2nd was a Tennessee walker.

They can't put anything on the internet that is not true you know.

I rode a gaited RM horse once in a big arena. He was a little hot but smooth and light with the cues. Most are not real big and nifty with their feet. I found out later the horse I had just ridden hadn't been saddled in 2 1/2 years due to an injury.

Ahh the internet.. truth of all ;-) Anywho, sure would like to know.. but I bet we're gonna need to hear it from the horses mouth ;-)

ppine,

Yeah many of these "God like" breeders are breeding out some of the better qualities.. mostly cause they ain't "showy" enough.

Personaly I like big hard feet... Jonesy has 'em ;-).

We've yet to see a "hot" rocky but we do have some that are very guarded and reactive. However, I feel MUCH of that is due to the handling of them prior to our arrival and taking over the management.

Your wife seems to exhibit two of the best techniques of horse training; time and patience. Looks like she's doing a great job.

Us old farts do get a few things right every once in a while I guess.

I believe I just read it in maybe Western Horseman that Rocky's are one of the breeds with some of the best feet. Walkers were one of the others.

There is a significant amount of Mustang blood in the Rocky's. Our Mustangs have some of the best and hardest feet I've ever worked with. Interestingly enough they have traced some of the blood lines of the Rocky's back to the horses in the Pryor's... cool stuff right there.

This fella just turned three (calendar years) he's still got some growing to do. Big personality. We have had this one since he was six months old. First time for us raising a baby.

Well, ya got the colors right ;-) everyone wants the Chocolate/Flaxen. Very nice and conformed very well.
Blood?
We've seen on average they have finished growing up by 4 and filled out at 5.

Oddly enough when I first saw him I did not think he would be a Chocolate. This picture at two months old was from a visit to the farm where he was born with a friend who wanted us to see the set up. I said to myself I like that one.



Several months later I had heard that the farm was offering several Rockies that were available including the colt I had thought would be one I would like to have. It was a situation of too many horses and not enough grass. We had the onset of some very dry conditions. This is what he looked like when I revisited the farm months later and brought him home still not knowing how he would turn out but his mane and tail were starting to show/retain the flaxen traits.

I don't have DNA results but I'm pretty sure about #2 being a TW.

Funny how they change coats...

Good looking pony...

Thanks Cocadori,

As far as bloodlines go: His Sire is Owen's Choctaw and the Dam is out of Nick. He has Sewell's Sam on top and bottom.

Hoping the rain holds off so we can get some riding in tomorrow.

I like mules and mustanos for good feet and lots of self-preservation. They are smart and you have to win them over.

I respect your perspective and that a Mule can recognize limitations. Some here on the Forum have said Horses are Stupid and I respect the people who post those comments and their limitations as well.

There is no doubt about where a Mule stands and I value them for their abilities.

I ride a Horse 'cause I appreciate a friend committed to me that will get me back Home.

Have/had many of both ..both have their place. Both take different approaches. Hard to beat the smoothness of a long earred horse ;-)

Truth be told.. we're thinking heavily on breeding 2 of our personal Rocky mares with a Mamoth Jack. ;-)

Maybe the best of both worlds.

There are dumb horse and there are smart horse. I prefer the smart ones.

This is probably hijacking this thread, but I'd be sure interested in knowing how that cross comes out. Best of both worlds I'd bet.

Most people who can't get along with mules usually turn out to be only mediocre horsemen or horse women. Women can usually get along better as they are softer in their approaches ( not all).That is why the old saying that horses should be trained like mules have to rings true.

Simple fact is horses, compared to all farm animals are at the bottom of the list for smarts. Maybe only topped by turkeys. Pigs being the smartest. The donkey imparts the intelligence to the cross, although some horses seem to have more smarts than others. One being the Arabian, but generally that crosses makes a pretty poor mule. Treated right a mule will make a lasting companion and bond more to a human than most horses.
Treated badly and they can be a train wreck. Trained right and treated right a good mule can be 10 times better than a good horse, but if not, they can be 100 times worse than bad horse.

I will keep you and everyone else posted on this outcome. We are weighing the odds and our time right now.

Everything you said is spot on. We've trained as well as "re-trained" mules for many.

I will say this though. This breed (Rocky's) are without a doubt the "smartest" (consistently) breed we've ever worked with.

So in fact we are looking for the best of both worlds in the Mamoth Jack breeding.

I have heard of gaited Mules, are they the outcome of a cross like this or a naturally occurring trait?

Usually a cross out of gaited mares, but some do advertise their jacks as being gaited.

Mules are usually smoother gaited than horses, although I have ben on some rough ones

When do you expect result to be in the mail?

IMHO I would prefer to ride an animal that did NOT try to do it's own thinking.

Cutting bred horses are generally very smart and relatively easy to train in my experience. They require a trainer smarter than they are, they want to please and are extremely athletic and sure footed

I find the brains of a horse has a lot to do with what the owner & previous owner(s) have going on between their ears

some are certifiably crazy and their horses are too

others are just happy go lucky and they generally choose a horse that is happy in most any situation

Definitely how the owner treats an animal is a factor, but some are definitely smarter than others. No question

No question in my mind JWP. The thing that has concerned me for a long time when it comes to mule's, is that if things go south out on the trail, will they listen to you or will they go into self preservation mode.

Manny do not talk to their horses enough, train wrecks happen with mules also. I tell mine "easy" and they know what it means and trust me enough to calm down rather easily. I also believe that spending time with a young horse less than 1 year pays dividends in the future.

I also believe that spending time with a young horse less than 1 year pays dividends in the future.

[/quote]

Agree, excellent observation.

I have been riding mules only for more than 30 years and an have had no problem with the self preservation mode. In fact if a person would only pay attention to what the mule is telling them, they would get in a lot less wrecks. It is proven fact the mules actually have a lot more chance of getting someone out of a bad predictament if the rider would only let them do it.

I start spending time with the mules I have raised while they are still wet. Most people have no concept of how much time needs to be spent with young mule or horse before they even think about getting on them.

Yea I truthfully don't have any personal experience with mule's, but there is at least one pretty famous packer who tends to not ride the mule's for that very reason.
My dad sure likes mules and his late wife was a top hand with mules. She seemed to think that our program of imprinting our foals would work really well with mules.

If more riders trusted their horses instincts in bad situation the horse will pick the best way. No doubt that a mule will as well. A horse will take you back even if you do not know the way

Ain't it the truth! A horse is the only animal I know of that will stick a foot in a fence and cripple itself so bad it has to be shot.
I've raised about every farm animal there is except a mule and I agree that pigs are at the top and turkeys at the bottom. Goats and llamas are very close to the top, too, far above cattle and sheep.

Maybe that's why I liked my horses. I could almost keep up with them in the smarts contest.
A few days ago I was reading something about high tension fencing. They really stressed never using it with horses because they'll dice themselves on the tight wires. There's no give to them and a horse that hits one will get cut to pieces.

Cocadori,
It sounds like you may be on to something. I am very happy to hear of your breeding plan.

Saddlesore deserves respect when it comes to mules. I agree that they tend to come in only 2 groups- good ones and bad ones. I have ridden many gaited mules in the mountains which can be a lot of fun, and owned a couple of gaited ones. Most mules are not nearly as tiring to ride as horses in the rough stuff because they keep their feet closer to the ground and don't roll as much when they walk. This becomes obvious after a 25 mile day with a pack string.

A smart horse will not do that. My horses will stand there until I get them unfouled

Smart horses are a joy for me, I have in the past owned dumb ones and never again. I want a horse that enjoy human attention and that is hard wired in when they are born IMHO

A smart horse does not go berserk




















They will do the exact same thing with wire or a vine in thick woods. I like well bred smart quarter horse that way I know exactly what I am getting when they are born

Comparing horses to horses, there are smarter ones and dumber ones, but compared to all farm animals, they still rate pretty low on the totem pole.

I'd bet those two horses were worked with when younger on how to handle a rope.

I'd still be leery tying them out in the hills like that and having a herd of elk stampede thru or bear or moose. Hock rope burns waiting to happen sooner or later.

Before they were ever work the one with the white back feet got wire around her back ankle and jusdt stund there until I figured out that she was fouled and relased her. Some are just hard wi9red that way.

I have never bought into the "horses are dumb" myth.

If they didn't spook from a bear or such then they would not be very smart

Horses are an animal of flight not fight..it is a natural instinct for them to flee what scares them. No surprize a wire fence that has pricked or cut them makes em wanna flee.

However some may not find the need to struggle either.

None of us got smart without instruction or making mistakes..right?

What makes you think a mule or horse would?

Not to be an ass ...but...I'd be leary of turing out horses anywhere with a halter on. Many have learned the hard way you can easily cripple a horse that way. You can also disfigure their nose.

As an addition... I'm with jwp on the horse's are dumb thing.

It's been proven time and time again they are one of the smarter mammals.

Think about what you are asking of a horse and all that it does for a human time and time again often with precision and repeatable consistiency. When asked correctly they are able to and do perform complicated tasks. These tasks go against EVERY natural instinct they have.

Don't even begin to tell me they are not smart. Most of the poeple who say that have to travel only a short distance to find the route of the issue.

I have raised horses, mules, cows, goats, pigs, no sheep, turkeys ,chickens and a few things I have forgotten probably.

Pigs are still at the top of the farm animal smart scale. Comparing horses to other farm animals, there is no comparison although cows are not vary far up the ladder either.

I won't dispute that some horses are smarter than others, some breeds are more trainable than others, and certainly some breeds are more apt to do certain tasks than others.

However, experienced farmers and ranchers that have worked with a lot of farm animals know where horses place in the smart scale.

They cannot do complicated tasks unless trained to do so and demonstrate the a small ability to perform cognizant reasoning , ie. cause and effect. They only do task that are against their natural instinct because they are trained to do them and very few arrive at that state with out that training. Which is why mules are somewhat more difficult to train than horses. They have to be desensitized more before they will accept the fact that what you are asking them to do will not hurt them. Lay out an obstacle course for a goat that requires it to figure out how to get thru it and it will get it done. You can even house train pigs to use litter boxes.

Perhaps it is wrong to base their IQ on human standards as most of their actions are from tehe prey side of the animal equation.

Train for that particular task on a consistent basis and they are very hard to train to change that method. That is why they learn bad habits just as easy as good habits.

The training of horses thru pressure and release and repeating task also prove this out. They will seek out the easiest way to do something that requires the least amount of thought, because they cannot think as humans know the process.

Those that subscribe to the above average intelligence of a horse or mule are more likely to suffer injuries from equine activities.

It is more appropriate the realize smart trainers make smart horses.

SS,

Now you are onto something.



Smart is a humanized concept. How can you apply human concepts to animals. Maybe as/for a barometer?

Are mules smarter or more self preserving? Do they learn more? Do they learn faster?

Smart scale of what?

Here's is the single biggest issue.

Anthropomorphism, or personification. PERIOD!

It is the attribution of human form or other characteristics to anything other than a human being.

It is an interesting discussion.

Huh.. how ironic... here's what I was talking about with halters jwp..

http://blogs.westernhorseman.com/unbranded/2013/05/13/lessons-from-unbranded-heels-and-halters/

No trying to be an ass.. just trying to help you avoid a bad thing.

Mules might be a little smarter, but mostly more cautious. The norm is you show mule something three times,they get it. That does not mean they will want to do it.

I was trying to compare the horses( or mules ) IQ to other farm animals, not humans.

The real world gets very interesting. Particularly these young gals who tell you my horse is the smartest thing there is and it will never do anything to hurt me. Those people get hurt.

I've been around horses all of my life and like Cocadori I don not find them to be dumb. I have owned horses that figured out how to unlock and open gates own their own. They are often smarter than the people that are judging their intelligence. I show my horse 1 time what I want and they remember. Dumb?? Not in the least

I am well aware of these things

I guess we all are entitled to our own opinions. Usually formed from experienced, I know mine are.

not saying one is right one is wrong here...

I just find it hard to draw parallels or conclusions when talking about "smart" animals. Comparisons are one thing but comparisons to what?

Is there a test that could be applied to animals. IQ test?

I find it hard to wrap my head around the humanized concepts and emotions that many give to animals... is it right or fair?

This horse my wife has been working for me. I could easily say he's super smart. He has accepted anything and everything we threw at him with in the first 3 tries.

Is he smart or trusting?

I think this could be an interesting discussion.

Apparently those young'uns have never had to pry a horse's teeth out of their shoulder or admired the print of a horseshoe on their kneecap. I've done both.

I would that she has earned his trust and he is smart

How about this horse

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YIo3ZfA9da0

Mine are definitely formed by my experience and knowledge. I have owned dumb horses, kind sweet horses and mean horses as well as smart horses. Blood lines matter in these regards, that I am convinced of. Some horses are born mean and they die mean, I do not want those

I am down to one mule now. I had to put my old one down a few weeks ago.As mules go, this one is fairly smart and like jwp475,I have owned smarter ones, dumber ones, mean and sweet ones, but in handling and using them, I never forget that they are a dumb animals and treat them with that respect.

About ten years ago, I sold off the few horses I had and kept 4 mules. My life got a lot easier then and all the mules calmed down a lot since they didn't have those mares around keeping them stirred up.

It' is indeed not right to judge any animal's smarts on a human scale. Unfortunately 95% of people do, and that is what gets them in trouble, affixing human traits to animals and then they coast along until something bad happens and it happens fast. I have seen some of those bad things,even ending in death for the human.

It might come from all these movies and TV shows depicting a wild stallion captured and becoming one with some 12-13 year old girl, or all the stories of wild animals depicted as tame creatures that folks can walk up to and pet.

This horse that your wife is working with could have turned out the exact opposite in the hands of a wrong person. That is what is wrong with people watching these Pat Parelli shows. They go out the next day, tie bag on their buggy whip and wonder why the horse goes beserk.

Every horse or mule out there can go either way based on how they are handled. The person who walks into round pen and figures that is a smart horse and then takes shortcuts gets into trouble every time. That is why I classify horses and mules as not real smart. Treat them all like they can hurt you. People will say, that is their prey instincts. Well those instincts can get you in trouble. Heck a pit bull has instincts too, and hundreds of owners say they are really not mean vicious animals but I don't trust them.

My father and grandfather used mules to plow our garden. I have never been much of a mule person myself. I have nothing against them, but I like horses better

I'm the opposite, I figure the only thing a good horse is for is to make a good mule. Nothing against them and I enjoy looking at good horse flesh. I will ride them if it means I have to walk otherwise.

Personally, I have always looked at mules as an anomaly and favored the horse.

Kind of like looking at a mule's mama and saying 'you slept with a WHAT???'

I like the turn this discussion took. I too think people go astray when they try to assign human smarts and emotions to animals.
I have one of those horses right now JWP that is a houdini supreme, but human smart? No.
Also, I do have to back up a little bit. I mentioned a famous packer that does not ride mules to pull his pack strings. From what I gather it has nothing to do with them not making good mounts generally, but that he feels that because of their nature they can be a little slow to get into action if things go south with his strings.
The link to the story about the halter brought back a memory of a similar incident that happened to me. Having gotten back to camp after a long day riding, I tied the little foxtrotter mare I was riding to the highline while I took a quick drink of water. Even though my wife warned me against it, I new I wasn't going to be but a minute.
Well, in that "minute" the little mare reached up to scratch behind her ear, and hooked the trailing end of her shoe over the string halter I had on her. She struggled for a moment then the halter popped off her head. My wife eased off one way and I the other, and just as I reached the other end of the highline the mare took off.
When she hit the end of her lead, the other horse still tied to the highline started running backwards stretching the highline tight to the point that the roping girth I had tied around the tree as a tree saver broke and flew through the air down to where I was standing, hitting me in the forehead,knocking me instantly unconcious.
When I awoke a couple of the girls were holding me down while one of the guys was unwrapping the highline and girth from around my ankles.
Luckily, the little mare had pulled loose and my wife had gotten hold of the other horse before she drug my butt over the mountain:)
Had a bloody mouth full of dirt and thought I was OK, but then started going into shock. Wife hauled me to the hospital 3hrs away, and found out I had a concussion.
She said about every 5 min I would ask her "now where are we going?"

I don't think that animal have human smarts, emotions or process pain the same as humans. I do know that some are a hell of a lot easier to train than others and that is the ones that I want. Call it smarts or what ever. I show the 2 mares in the picture something once and they remember, I call that smarts. I know that if the parents are that way then there is an extremely high probability that the off spring will be as well

That is what I am talking about Byron. These critters can hurt you or themselves with out even meaning too. That is what I refer to as being stupid. I lost a darn good mule when it rolled on a highline and got it's back leg up over the drop line and dislocated it's hip. That mule had been on a highline for 20+ years during hunting seasons. That is why I cautioned about those horses shown with the back foot tie to arope.It can happen any time to any horse or mule.

As far as folks thinking the mule is an anomaly, I find that those who do so mostly have no direct experience of actually working with a mule. Those who have bad experiences did not take the time to find out the big differences between a horse and a mule or got ahold of one that had already been messed up.

I can understand Byron's friend the packer saying what he did about a lead mule as it is entirely true. You cannot force a mule to do something and they have the unfortunate characteristic that they think they have a vote in a lot of matters. Most horseman can't abide that, but it has kept me out of trouble more often than getting me into trouble. I have always lead pack strings, although not big ones, with a mule.

In 40+ years of riding and using the long eared version of equines, I have never known anyone to go back to riding horses after they have ridden a good mule. That is unfortunate for the horsemen who have formulated a prejudicial attitude about them before using them.

Mules , I don't think are not smarter than horse, but the donkey part of the equation evolved from animals that lived in areas where flight was precluded because of mountainous or rocky terrain. The horse was opposite in that it evolved in open country and the flight instinct became prevalent. This is why mules will tend to turn and fight a predator or at least stop and figure something out whereas a horse will mostly turn and flee. That is the response that can get a person hurt.

People that do not train a horse properly before putting them in compromising situation are asking for a train wreck. Also IMHO it is important to bond with your horse and gain their trust. That way they will listen and trust you when they are frightened.

Both horses and mules are animals and not machines

One of the biggest tricks with equines is to desensitize them enough to overcome all of that flight instinct. I used to ride with an ex-rough stock rider. When we rode together, he would say things like-"let's show them the hang glider."

I would encourage people to spend more time with desensitizing. It makes for safer and better crtitters.

Here is a good test of equine smarts. Throw an unusal object like a beach ball in a large turnout with loose horses and mules. Some will stay away from it. The smart ones will have curiosity and come over to investigate. I would pick the ones that carry the ball around in their teeth.

There are horse mules and donkey mules. The horse mules tend to be better performers, and have impulsion, but more flight instinct. I like saddlesore's line about changing sides after experiencing a good mule in the mountains.

I asked working cow people for years about their mule experience. Very often I would hear the same story-"Yeah I rode a mule once doing a big circle. It was ornery and bucked a lot. I never rode a mule again."

I agree that you always need to be aware around livestock to reduce the odds of getting hurt. Riding introduces more variables and sometimes you just cannot anticipate what may come your way. I've seen good horses act in unexpected ways 'cause of the reaction of lessor horses that stirred the flight mentality. If you are reading your animal you are ok most of the time. I cannot agree with calling equines stupid but understand the intent of the phrase. They are acting true to their behavior traits so there is a norm to be expected. Now I have have seen and all too often some down right stupid behavior by people in and around horses.

This thread sure took off in a new direction as soon as Roy Rogers Trigger was mentioned. A lot of good lore has been shared here.

Reading an animals body language is very important IMHO. I agree also that smarter equine are more inquisitive.

Indeed a lot of good info in this thread. In reference to PPine's remark about working cows with mules.

I use to buy weanling and yearling mules from a guy down near the 4 corners area of NM. ( Doyle Hill) He bred quarter horse and Tenn. Walker mules. Probably about 50 head a year. He always had some 1/4horse mule foals, to buy, but to buy walker mule, you had to pay him when the mare was bred, the balance when you picked it up and usually had to wait a year to do that . The cowboys in AZ, Utah, NM,and NV bought every one he could raise as they liked those big long legged mules for the gathers. They could use one mule day after day, but would have to switch out horses every day. I bought a few ,but they were too big for short me and a shorter mule is a lot handier in the timber and easier to pack. The one I put down a few weeks ago I bought from him 29 years ago ,but it was a little Fox Trotter mule.

There is another Mexican rancher down near the ghost town of Riley ,NM,SW of Socorro that only uses mules on his ranch for working cows. It is high dry rocky desert and when you by one of his mules, it is broke all the way. I didn't get his name, but met him in Eagle CO at a mule sale back in 09.

JWP475was talking about trust and bonds with horses. That goes 10x's for a mule.

I respect your passion for mules, however I will expand my opinion of a mule as an anomaly and expand on that to say they do not have the diversity of the horse and are probably best suited to a beast of burden.

roundoak..

Well.. yeah they can and do ..do it all. I have an old aquaintence in Wyo that does everything form a mule. However, I've yet to see one cut.



Well, ya do now... ;-)

This is Thelma...(with some kidlets guests on a 7 day pack trip we took their family on.)





WOW... she was a goodun! I rode her a lot when I was on long hauls in and out of camps. I's paack her light and then swap her out when the mount I was riding needed a break. Truth be told her and her alone is what prompted my wife and I to consider crossing these rockies with a mamoth jack. So maybe indirectly your statement is still holding true.

Saddlesore, Between my dear ole dad and your gentle honest way making the case for your mule's, you two just about make me want to give ole long ears a try. Don't know that I would never go back to horses, but maybe someday....
Quickly my favorite forum. Good horsemen. Good conversation. I don't think I see a single person on here I wouldn't like to share a real campfire with.

You need to spend some days at the Bishop mule days CA or any of the other get togethers or this Father 's day weekend go to Powell WY and watch the sale and exhibition of Jake Clark's Mule Days.
Last year the high selling mule went for $19,000 and the next three were above $10,000 and the overall average of all the rest was above $4700.

Even look at the mules for sale this year and see what they have been doing. Most are coming off cattle ranches.

Here is that little mule I talked about packing elk.




Here he is pulling a sleigh.



Here he is with the little neighbor girl ridng him.



Working in harness.






They have just as much diversity as a horse, and in some cases more. This was a true three bells mule. Around here,they do cattle penning, racing, roping, all gymkhana events, and yes I have seen them do cutting out in CA where they typically work more cows with mules than here. Around the turn off the 19th century there were more mules than horses. Most horse shows band mules because they beat out the horses. It took a local gal over 5 years to have mules recognized by the National Dressage Committee and when they did permit them to compete, she won a lot of blue ribbons. My wife has boxes and boxes of silver loving cups and blue ribbons from Side Saddle competition on a mule and other events and I have boxes of a lot of ribbons from reining, western pleasure, ranch riding, trail, etc. I'd say that is pretty diverse.

OK, you win SS. You have made a good case for a man-made animal being far superior to a natural creation, however that superiority has not showed up yet in the farms, fields and paddocks around here. Here is hoping we catch up to the rest of the country soon.

I didn't live to far from there for a good spell. There are a lot of smoke and mirrors with those guys.

Most of those high end mules never were delivered to the "new" owner.

Good stock and what not but well things always arn't as they appear. ;-)

Byron,

I like this forum (Horses) a lot.. very level headed and typically open minded folk here. I'd share a campfire with any of ya! Hell I'd look forward to it. ;-)

Around here good mules bring big prices from guys hauling them out west. That's the market in these parts. You have one price for locals and another for people out of state.....that normally means west. Many many people from here sell mules for huge money. I've rode with lots of them. I have friends that have them and have sold them for big bucks. I've been on the edge of wanting a mule for years.

That said I've yet to be around or ride with any mule that makes me feel like I would be better off with a mule than our horses. Our horses seem to do everything we ask of them. We don't ranch or work cattle(we do raise cattle) we don't pack strings(have been out west twice and packed them) we mainly just ride the hills and hollers for pleasure. The stock we have now is the best we have ever had. It's for sure due to breeding.

I've not said and you won't hear me say my/our horses are better than anyone else's. for our needs we've not seen any reason to do anything different at this point. I'm not one of those guys that says this breed is better than that breed.

I will say that in my opinion you must first start with good stock. Handle that stock properly and then nothing can make up for time under the leather.

It is good conversation and each person has an opinion based on what works for them. Would love to be able to ride with all of you fellas at some point. You fellas back east might get a PM soon....grin. Take care all.

Kaleb

Whether it is horses, pigeons, dogs or mules, you definitely need to start with good stock. The old adage of garbage in=garbage out rings true.

I'm not out to "win" anything, just want some folks to know what's what about mules.

Cacadori,
Are you talking about Jake Clark's sale, as I frequented Bishop a lot in the mid 80's and didn't find that to be true. We were in a lot of competition back then ( not at Bishop though) and I got to know quite few competitors.

Cocadori-

It looks like you have bark beetles?