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Reading an animals body language is very important IMHO. I agree also that smarter equine are more inquisitive.

Indeed a lot of good info in this thread. In reference to PPine's remark about working cows with mules.

I use to buy weanling and yearling mules from a guy down near the 4 corners area of NM. ( Doyle Hill) He bred quarter horse and Tenn. Walker mules. Probably about 50 head a year. He always had some 1/4horse mule foals, to buy, but to buy walker mule, you had to pay him when the mare was bred, the balance when you picked it up and usually had to wait a year to do that . The cowboys in AZ, Utah, NM,and NV bought every one he could raise as they liked those big long legged mules for the gathers. They could use one mule day after day, but would have to switch out horses every day. I bought a few ,but they were too big for short me and a shorter mule is a lot handier in the timber and easier to pack. The one I put down a few weeks ago I bought from him 29 years ago ,but it was a little Fox Trotter mule.

There is another Mexican rancher down near the ghost town of Riley ,NM,SW of Socorro that only uses mules on his ranch for working cows. It is high dry rocky desert and when you by one of his mules, it is broke all the way. I didn't get his name, but met him in Eagle CO at a mule sale back in 09.

JWP475was talking about trust and bonds with horses. That goes 10x's for a mule.

I respect your passion for mules, however I will expand my opinion of a mule as an anomaly and expand on that to say they do not have the diversity of the horse and are probably best suited to a beast of burden.

roundoak..

Well.. yeah they can and do ..do it all. I have an old aquaintence in Wyo that does everything form a mule. However, I've yet to see one cut.



Well, ya do now... ;-)

This is Thelma...(with some kidlets guests on a 7 day pack trip we took their family on.)





WOW... she was a goodun! I rode her a lot when I was on long hauls in and out of camps. I's paack her light and then swap her out when the mount I was riding needed a break. Truth be told her and her alone is what prompted my wife and I to consider crossing these rockies with a mamoth jack. So maybe indirectly your statement is still holding true.

Saddlesore, Between my dear ole dad and your gentle honest way making the case for your mule's, you two just about make me want to give ole long ears a try. Don't know that I would never go back to horses, but maybe someday....
Quickly my favorite forum. Good horsemen. Good conversation. I don't think I see a single person on here I wouldn't like to share a real campfire with.

You need to spend some days at the Bishop mule days CA or any of the other get togethers or this Father 's day weekend go to Powell WY and watch the sale and exhibition of Jake Clark's Mule Days.
Last year the high selling mule went for $19,000 and the next three were above $10,000 and the overall average of all the rest was above $4700.

Even look at the mules for sale this year and see what they have been doing. Most are coming off cattle ranches.

Here is that little mule I talked about packing elk.




Here he is pulling a sleigh.



Here he is with the little neighbor girl ridng him.



Working in harness.






They have just as much diversity as a horse, and in some cases more. This was a true three bells mule. Around here,they do cattle penning, racing, roping, all gymkhana events, and yes I have seen them do cutting out in CA where they typically work more cows with mules than here. Around the turn off the 19th century there were more mules than horses. Most horse shows band mules because they beat out the horses. It took a local gal over 5 years to have mules recognized by the National Dressage Committee and when they did permit them to compete, she won a lot of blue ribbons. My wife has boxes and boxes of silver loving cups and blue ribbons from Side Saddle competition on a mule and other events and I have boxes of a lot of ribbons from reining, western pleasure, ranch riding, trail, etc. I'd say that is pretty diverse.

OK, you win SS. You have made a good case for a man-made animal being far superior to a natural creation, however that superiority has not showed up yet in the farms, fields and paddocks around here. Here is hoping we catch up to the rest of the country soon.

I didn't live to far from there for a good spell. There are a lot of smoke and mirrors with those guys.

Most of those high end mules never were delivered to the "new" owner.

Good stock and what not but well things always arn't as they appear. ;-)

Byron,

I like this forum (Horses) a lot.. very level headed and typically open minded folk here. I'd share a campfire with any of ya! Hell I'd look forward to it. ;-)

Around here good mules bring big prices from guys hauling them out west. That's the market in these parts. You have one price for locals and another for people out of state.....that normally means west. Many many people from here sell mules for huge money. I've rode with lots of them. I have friends that have them and have sold them for big bucks. I've been on the edge of wanting a mule for years.

That said I've yet to be around or ride with any mule that makes me feel like I would be better off with a mule than our horses. Our horses seem to do everything we ask of them. We don't ranch or work cattle(we do raise cattle) we don't pack strings(have been out west twice and packed them) we mainly just ride the hills and hollers for pleasure. The stock we have now is the best we have ever had. It's for sure due to breeding.

I've not said and you won't hear me say my/our horses are better than anyone else's. for our needs we've not seen any reason to do anything different at this point. I'm not one of those guys that says this breed is better than that breed.

I will say that in my opinion you must first start with good stock. Handle that stock properly and then nothing can make up for time under the leather.

It is good conversation and each person has an opinion based on what works for them. Would love to be able to ride with all of you fellas at some point. You fellas back east might get a PM soon....grin. Take care all.

Kaleb

Whether it is horses, pigeons, dogs or mules, you definitely need to start with good stock. The old adage of garbage in=garbage out rings true.

I'm not out to "win" anything, just want some folks to know what's what about mules.

Cacadori,
Are you talking about Jake Clark's sale, as I frequented Bishop a lot in the mid 80's and didn't find that to be true. We were in a lot of competition back then ( not at Bishop though) and I got to know quite few competitors.

Cocadori-

It looks like you have bark beetles?

The scourge of the west. That's what caused Yellowstone to burn some years ago...along with a big share of Idaho. We have millions of acres dying from them.

SS,

Yeah Clark's are well.. interesteing folk... good stock though.

Yep that was in Wyo.. bark beetles are pert near everywhere in the areas I had my permits in. A horrible thing. A lot of beautiful country is in serious risk in Wyo.

To keep things on track here...

We're about 95% sure were going to visit the Mamoth Jack in a couple weeks ;-)

I'd look more at a std jack. The mare will give you the height. Figure 2-4" taller than the mare. You will get a more refined mule with the right jack. The mammoth would more likely throw a bigger head and thicker legs, but that may be more dependent on the particular jack.

I hear ya... same thing was told to us by the person that has the Jack. We have 2 mares and we are taking them to the breeder for advice on which one and the probably or possible outcomes.

The breeder is friends with our mentor and a big reason why we trust what either advise of us as we are new to the jack breeding thing...

Here's alink to her stuff...

http://www.djbarranch.com/max.htm

Hard to tell from the photos, but I think that jack would be better suited to breed to belgiums or percherons. He has a little bit shorter neck than I like that may be transferred to the foal and I think you might want to find some thing with a more refined head. Nothing wrong with that one, but for a saddle mule, you want the smallest, sharpest head you can find.

At 14hd's,he is not all that tall and everything else on him looks great.

I bred two haflingers,one to a mammoth and one to a std jack. The Std jack came out a lot nicer, but she still could have used a smaller head. They both finished out to 15 hds from the 13 hd mare.

I actually did watch a guy cutting on a mule at Bondurant several years ago. Did a passable job. Did not set up like your typical cutting horse, but got the job done none the less.
Speaking of that particular cutting, my dad was there cutting on a morgan mare he had that was a very good cutter.

And there is a lot to like with a Morgan horse
Cheers

I have seen paints and Thoroughbreds as well in the cutting arena, but the quarter horse is by far the most prevalent

Yes sir, but what is this thing we call a quarter horse now days?
My best cutting bred mare is Doc Bar top and bottom. She is a registered quarter horse but Doc Bar was thoroughbred.