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Originally Posted by Stuart
Originally Posted by kutenay
That Luftwaffe pilot was Fritz Siegler or Stiegler... this act of "chivalry" by a German warrior was NOT an isolated incident...

Fascinating. I believe there was another Luftwaffe pilot living around here who pointed a very badly shot-up bomber back to England after the pilot had become disoriented. I can't remember the details now, but both the bomber pilot and the Lufwaffe pilot ended up living in the Pacific Northwest. One was in Vancouver and the other in Seattle, I think. As I recall, they didn't meet up until several decades after the war.

Just goes to prove that "the good guys" weren't the only "good" ones.(And the reverse is also true.)

smile Stuart


Stuart;
I hope that this final day in our Victoria Day weekend finds you doing well.

If I'm not mistaken sir, you and kutenay are talking about the same two pilots and the same incident.

Here's a youtube video of the first meeting between Charles Brown and Franz Stigler.



As I've mentioned before here, two of my wife's uncles - both gone now - served in the Canadian forces in that war, one as a forward artillery observer and one as a tail gunner on a Lancaster.

On mom's side we had one uncle by marriage and one of her brothers that served.

What I've likely not mentioned was that another uncle by marriage on my late father's side was a German vet.

Anyway Stuart, as kutenay said, this subject runs fairly deep with a lot of us Canucks and has meaning to our generation that in all probability the next one won't have.

Here's a wiki link to the story too btw:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charlie_Brown_and_Franz_Stigler_incident

Hopefully the info was of use to you or someone else out there Stuart. All the best to you and yours this summer.

Regards,
Dwayne


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Originally Posted by Seafire
Really Really Coool!

Thanks for posting it. Too bad not enough folks on our side of the border know much about the famous raids by 619 Squadron on the Ruhr Damns in 1943.

Sad that Commander Gibson was lost later in the war. Remember the movie when it came out in my youth, and remember reading the book over and over. and the good fortune for an American kid of being able to climb around in a Lancaster.

There still is one IIRC at a museum in a small town in Alberta, south of Edmonton. Its been 10 years or so since I have been up that way...

a salute of respect to the brave men who flew that mission, and especially to the half of them that didn't make it back home from it.



http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/

Lancaster and museum located in Nanton Alberta south of Calgary.

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Hi Dwayne,

Erm...well.. like lots of us patriotic Canucks, I am actually across the line in the US today, in this case Bellingham, where my (Canadian) girlfriend is a prof. at Western Washington Univ. We had our sort of international celebration last night by watching Hyde Park on the Hudson, preceded by a thoroughly British gin and tonic. (Alas, no Angostura bitters available here.)

Thanks for the latest info. I think you are probably right and it is the same story. After reading kutenay's post I was trying to remember where I read the story originally so I could post a comment with the info kutenay had mentioned but I can't seem to find it.

smile Stuart


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Stuart;
Thanks for the reply and the grin it gives me. laugh

If you read the pizza thread, you'd no doubt infer that we've spent a whole pile of time in the company of our good neighbors to the south. We've yet to have a bad experience down there - well barring the one "different" encounter with two young Homeland Security officers who stopped us 50yds from the Osoyoos crossing last summer.

I suppose they're just trying to make sure they've got work this summer too Stuart, but um - an average looking Canuck family in a Corolla, returning from spending mounds of cash in Spokane likely don't fit any "threat profile" on their list. laugh

If you folks ever drift east into the Okanagan and feel so inclined, the offer of coffee, world class Tickleberry's ice cream or whatever we can find in the fridge is open to you folks.

Have a safe trip home and a good week Stuart.

Dwayne



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Originally Posted by Seafire
Sad that A thread about this historical event, takes second fiddle to one about Canadian vs American Pizza...

I for one, could care less about who makes the best pizza, beer or even hockey pucks...

especially when it comes to remembering and honoring the sacrifice these brave men made on this mission 70 years ago...

call me old fashion and out of tune with what is really important in today's world... eh? whistle


It's all good. Threads like these tend to wander. My father and uncles were all WW2 veterans. No disrespect intended the Dam Busters. What they did was outstanding!

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Originally Posted by BC30cal
Stuart;

...If you read the pizza thread...

PIZZA? Actually I didn't. Like Idahoguy, I'm not too interested in which contry claims to have the best pizza!

I've been travelling back and forth to Bellingham for about 7 years now and I've only had one grumpy US Border guard who complained because I had a few tools in my car to fix a faucet on our house in WA. I was "taking jobs away from Americans..." Fortunately he was at the end of his shift and couldn't be bothered to really kick up a fuss. Other than that, everyone on both sides has been pretty decent. Maybe I just look honest.

And they shouldn't be giving us too much grief because, love 'em or hate 'em, people from the Lower Mainland around Vancouver are pretty much keeping Whatcom County afloat. They're building a(long-overdue) roundabout on Northwest Ave. below I-5 near where my gf lives and she suggested that when it's finished, we should sneak out at 3am and put a little sign on it with a Canadian flag and the caption: "This roundabout partly financed by your neighbours to the north." smirk

I just watched the video of the meeting between the two pilots and it was very moving indeed. Presumably the top gunner was also out of action or he might have shot Stigler down as he flew alongside. An extraordinary event.

Many thanks for the invite. Tickelberry Ice Cream, eh? I'll keep a note of that!

smile Stuart

ps AB2506, Doesn't Fred Sutherland, one of the three surviving Dambusters veterans, live in Calgary?

Last edited by Stuart; 05/20/13.

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Originally Posted by AB2506
Originally Posted by Seafire
Really Really Coool!

Thanks for posting it. Too bad not enough folks on our side of the border know much about the famous raids by 619 Squadron on the Ruhr Damns in 1943.

Sad that Commander Gibson was lost later in the war. Remember the movie when it came out in my youth, and remember reading the book over and over. and the good fortune for an American kid of being able to climb around in a Lancaster.

There still is one IIRC at a museum in a small town in Alberta, south of Edmonton. Its been 10 years or so since I have been up that way...

a salute of respect to the brave men who flew that mission, and especially to the half of them that didn't make it back home from it.



http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/

Lancaster and museum located in Nanton Alberta south of Calgary.


Thanks AB! as I said, it has been 10 or more years since I was last there. Use to visit it almost every time I was in Alberta.

During the war, evidently the RAF and RCAF operated a lot of training bases in southern Alberta and Saskatchewan training bomber crews. Talked to a couple of old guys who were telling me after the war, tons of those bombers were sold to the public for scrap, and the farmers bought them like crazy.

propeller spinners were used as chicken coops, oil companies bought those Merlin Engines and used them to run pumps at oil wells.... no end to uses they could come up with...

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Interesting thread. Thanks folks.
I sheep hunted with an old guy a few years ago that had some interesting stories about WWII. I think he went to England with the Canucks before America got into the war. He claimed that he flew one of the first P-51 exported to England. The base commander told him you Yanks made the damn thing, you fly it. He read the book and flew it. He didn't know how the brakes worked, and dinged the prop on landing. Nothing serious. He said he never had a damaged plane in his log book. (The prop ding didn't count!)
He loved the Mosquito. Thought it was one of the best planes in the war. Made from wood, cheap to build. Single pilot. Bomber or fighter.
I'm sorry, I forget his name. I think we called him Mac? If anybody knows anything about him, I'd be interested. He could, and would tell stories for hours about planes and WWII.
He flew his whole life. Retired from one of the airlines. He would be in his late 80s now.
Thanks.

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http://www.bombercommandmuseum.ca/s,joemccarthy.html

Hopefully this link will open for you, if not just goggle American Dam Buster, probably not your "Mac" but is a "Mc".
Joe McCarthy is the Yanks name.

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Chronicles



Joseph Charles "Joe" McCarthy DSO DFC and BAR
- The RCAF's American Dambuster




Joe McCarthy (left) with the King and W/C Guy Gibson.
[ IWM-CH9925 ] Joe McCarthy was born on Long Island, New York in 1919 and grew up in New York City. Fascinated by aircraft and flying, he worked as a lifeguard at Coney Island and many other beaches in the New York area and at other odd jobs to pay for flying lessons. On three occasions he attempted to join the Army Air Corps. Each time he was told that he would hear back from them but he never did. The Air Corps knew that it had to expand but the US military was simply unprepared for any large-scale expansion.

During May 1941, twenty months after the beginning of the war and with the United States still neutral, Joe's good friend Don Curtin suggested that they head up to Canada and join the Royal Canadian Air Force. "Within two days," McCarthy recalled, "we were boarding a bus and heading for Ottawa. We spent the night at the Ottawa YMCA and the following morning proceeded to the air force recruiting office." There they were told that they'd have to come back at a later date. Their response was, "Take us today as we don't have the money to return again." The warrant officer in charge took a second look at the lads from the States. He wouldn't likely see a healthier, stronger pair of prospects for a while and the next day they were at Manning Depot in Toronto.




Related Articles
Dams Raid
Publications
Americans In The RCAF
Nose Art on Joe McCarthy's Lancasters


Joe trained at No. 12 EFTS at Goderich, Ontario flying Fleet Finch aircraft. He was then assigned to No. 5 SFTS at Brantford, Ontario where he trained on Avro Ansons. One day during his training he had his map fly out a window and Joe became utterly lost. With fuel running low he had to land in a farmer's field to ask directions. Despite this, he received his wings and a commission on 17 December, 1941. Most of the sixty or so graduates became pilots with Bomber Command. Most, including Joe's friend Don Curtain, would not return from Europe.





Joe McCarthy (right) with his good friend Don Curtin two days after Don had been awarded the DFC in the fall of 1942.
Sadly, F/L Donald Joe Curtin DFC and Bar was lost on a raid to Nuremberg on 25 February, 1943.


Following Christmas, McCarthy sailed from Halifax for England aboard a banana boat. The ship was separated from their convoy during bad weather and proceeded alone for eleven days before docking in Liverpool. When McCarthy and his fellow aircrew arrived at Bournemounth they were surprised that they had arrived before the rest of the convoy.

Following further training on Oxfords at No. 12 Advanced Flying Unit, P/O McCarthy completed his training at No. 14 Operational Training Unit. During his "training" with the O.T.U. he flew three operations to the Ruhr in the twin-engined Hampden bomber. On 11 September, 1942 he was assigned to No. 97 Squadron RAF at Woodhall Spa in Lincolnshire and began flying operations against the enemy. He was highly regarded on the squadron and awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross, the citation reading, "On many occasions this officer has attacked targets in Germany. As captain of aircraft he has participated in sorties to the heavily defended objectives in the Ruhr and took part in the successful raid on Essen on a night in March 1943. He has also attacked Berlin three times and Italian targets on five occasions. Throughout his whole career, his conduct has set an example of high courage and efficiency to other members of the squadron".

While with No. 97 Squadron, Joe had met W/C Gibson who was stationed at nearby Coningsby. As Joe was completing his tour he received a telephone call from Gibson who told him, "I'm forming a new squadron. I can't tell you much about it except that we may be doing only one trip. I'd like you and your crew to join us."

Joe was excited about the opportunity but his crew were a bit cool. They had just beaten the odds and competed a tour of operations. However all but one of the crew decided to follow their captain to the new squadron. They made their first flight with the new squadron on 31 March, 1943.

After several weeks of intensive and dangerous low-level training, Joe very nearly was unable to participate in the raid itself. When he and his crew entered their aircraft "Q for Queenie" they found that the Lancaster could not be flown because of leaks in an engine's coolant system.

Joe and his crew then rushed over to "T for Tom", the spare Lancaster, only to find it virtually unserviceable too since the card giving the compass deviations vital for accurately flying the carefully charted route to the dams was not in the cockpit. The chances of navigating through the enemy anti-aircraft sites to their target were zero without it.

Again Joe left the cockpit, this time headed in a rage for the hangar where he was met by Flight Sergeant "Chiefy" Powell, the squadron's senior NCO. Fortunately, he was able to locate the missing compass deviations card.

Finally Joe was airborne but he had taken off twenty minutes after the rest of his section. He was the commander of the squadron's second wave that was assigned to attack the third of the three priority dams targeted. This was the Sorpe dam which, unlike the Mohne and Eder dams, was built of earth covering a concrete core which would absorb more of the shock waves created by the bomb and reduce its intended effect. For this target the "bouncing-bomb" mode of attack was not used.

Joe was the only one of his five plane wave to reach the Sorpe. Of the four other aircraft, one was shot down and another was so badly shot up by flak that it had to abort. Another crashed into an electrical pylon supporting power cables and the fourth had to abort because it was flying so low that it bounced off the water and lost its bomb.

The target was located between high hills that necessitated a steep dive from the attacking aircraft and, to complicate matters further, a thick mist filled the valley making it difficult to locate the dam.

When at last the dam was identified Joe made his bombing run along the crest of the 2297' dam wall. The Sorpe, because of it's earthen construction, had no vertical wall to stop the skipping mine and hence had to be attacked by flying parallel to the dam and not at right angles to it as with the Mohne and Eder. This necessitated coming over the top of the hill and closely following the slope down to the dam, using flaps to keep speed under control, dropping the mine and then climbing out quickly as the hill rose on the other end of the dam. It was not until the tenth run over the dam that bomb-aimer Sgt. George "Johnny" Johnson was satisfied and released the bomb from a height of about thirty feet. The explosion sent a huge tower of water into the sky but when Joe flew over again he could see that the wall had survived although the parapet had been damaged.

Although the Sorpe Dam wasn't breached as were the Mohne and Eder, the crest of the dam had crumbled for 50 yards and eventually the Germans were forced to draw off some of the capacity of the Sorpe Reservoir. Canadian pilot Ken Brown flew the only other aircraft that attacked the Sorpe.

F/L McCarthy was awarded the Distinguished Service Order for his efforts on the Dams Raid.





Joe McCarthy in 1944
[ courtesy Joe McCarthy jr. ] The Dams Raid was the first of many special operations that No. 617 Squadron would carry out during the war. Joe continued to fly with the squadron, serving under two of W/C Gibson's successors, including Leonard Cheshire, who had a high estimate of his abilities, promoting him to squadron leader and making him a flight commander. In April 1944, S/L McCarthy was awarded a "Bar" to his DFC with the citation, "Since being awarded the Distinguished Service Order this officer has completed numerous sorties as captain of aircraft in which he has taken part in difficult and hazardous operations at low level. Squadron Leader McCarthy has displayed exemplary skill and courage which, combined with his unfailing devotion to duty, have contributed much to the success achieved".

Joe was involved with the use of a new SABS bomb-sight that gave great accuracy from high altitudes. He flew a number of operations on selected, small targets in France that could be hit without causing damage to nearby residential areas.

No. 617 also flew operations as "Pathfinders", dropping target indicators for the main force which would follow. On one occasion, McCarthy's reference point was a small building. Somehow his TI went right inside the building and he had to come around again to place another marker!

Joe began his third tour with a raid to Toulouse on 5 April, 1944. On the night prior to the D-Day invasion, he flew with the squadron as they followed racetrack shaped circuits at 800 feet off Calais with three-minute turns, dropping special types of aluminum foil. This duped the German coastal radar into thinking that a large surface fleet was approaching Pas de Calais while the real force was approaching Normandy far to the west.


Joe was also involved in the dropping of the first 12,000 pound "Tallboy" bomb on the Saumar railway tunnel. The weapon was released from 10,500 feet and struck within 100 yards of the target, causing the tunnel to collapse. Joe dropped other Tallboys on submarine pens and a V-1 factory where he spent fifty minutes over the target. His 67th and last operation took place on 4 July, 1944 when he placed a Tallboy on a target near Criel, France.

During his war time career with No. 617 Squadron, Joe's aircraft featured a unique collection of nose art that was related to his American, Canadian, and British connections.

Following a brief period with No. 6 Group Headquarters and another as the commanding officer of a fighter affiliation unit where he flew Hurricanes and Sptifires, S/L McCarthy was posted to the Royal Aircraft Establishment at Farnborough in November, 1944.

Following the end of the war, McCarthy continued at Farnborough where he served with the "Foreign Aircraft Flight". This group had the task of locating a wide range of Luftwaffe aircraft types, ferrying them to England, and evaluating them. Some 75 ex-Luftwaffe aircraft were flown to Farnborough and approximately 50 others were delivered by sea. Joe flew numerous types including the FW-200 Condor long range anti-shipping aircraft, the big Arado 232 transport, the FW-190 fighter, the He-219 Owl, Germany's most advanced night-fighter, and the Do-335, Germany's most advanced piston-powered aircraft of the war. It had two DB-603 engines each with 2100 horsepower. One was mounted in the nose and the second in the tail. Joe also flew his first jet, the British Meteor EE-360. When his duties at Farnborough came to a close at the end of 1945, S/L McCarthy had flown fifty different types of aircraft.

Joe McCarthy remained in the RCAF and took out Canadian citizenship upon his return to Canada in 1946. He enjoying a varied and successful post-war career that included commanding the Test and Development Establishment at Rockcliffe, Ontario, serving as Wing Commander Flying with No. 4 Flying Training School at Penhold, Alberta, commanding No. 407 Maritime Reconnaissance Squadron at Comox, British Columbia, and acting as the air operations officer for the United Nations for fourteen months in the Belgian Congo in 1962. In 1966 he became Base Operations Officer at Greenwood at the height of the Argus anti-submarine activity. His last trip in the RCAF was aboard an Argus on April 9, 1968.

Following his retirement he moved to Virginia Beach, Virginia, working in real estate for a few years before retiring. During retirement he lectured at the USAF Air War College at Maxwell Air Force Base.

During the war, Joe McCarthy is said to have been a favourite of his fellow pilots. He was 6' 3" and weighed 225 pounds, becoming known on the RAF squadrons as "the big blond American". According to Harry Humphries, No. 617 Squadron adjutant, "He was a massive hunk of man physically, but really a gentle giant."

Outwardly, he had a personality that matched his physique. His colourful American expletives, freely lavished on all who crossed his path, were in marked contrast to the more austere profanity of the British pilots. But as the end of the war approached, he had adapted somewhat to the British way, being seen with a pipe, a walking stick and a dog on a leash. "If I'm going to be an officer and a gentleman," he said, "I'm going to have a crack at looking the part."

McCarthy hated bureaucracy and anything from ground staff that he interpreted as a lack of appreciation of the risks that the aircrew took almost every night. Prior to a second attempt by No. 617 Squadron to breach the Dortmund-Ems canal, he over-heard a WAAF officer remarking, "My God, I hope they get there tonight. The trouble the AOC's gone to over this." McCarthy silenced her with a snarled, "The hell with you and all the AOC's. What about the seven lives in every kite!" and stormed off. On this second attempt, only three out of eight aircraft made it home.





Harlo 'Terry' Taerum (left), Guy Gibson (centre-front) and Joe McCarthy (right).




American Dambuster - a painting by Mark Postlethwaite [ www.posart.com ]




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oo7; Thanks for the info. I'll check with a couple folks who knew him and see if that is him.
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Read "A Higher Call" about Franz Stigler, the German fighter pilot (who Kutenay mentioned above)and Charlie Brown, the American B17 pilot who were in the 'escort incident' (who BC30cal mentioned above) and who ended up meeting in the 1980's. Franz ended up in Vancouver and Charlie in Miami. It is a super read about the air war on both sides. Towards the end, the Americans were raiding with over 1000 B17's and 600 fighter escorts at a time.
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