Home Forums Reloading Big Game Rifles One More Time, H414=W760

These powders are the same powder. Lots may differ but they are the same.

Yep and

H110=W296

i have seen lots with a different color shade, between h414 and w760.

slasher,

I never assume one manufacturers powder is the same as another's. Many reloaders will tell you also that H4350 and IMR 4350 are the same powder... they are not! If you read load books, you'll see that often times when they test load with W760 and H414 the max charge may differ as much as 10%, and often 5-8%. Be careful assuming one powder is identical to another. They may fall in the same area or one right after another on the burn rate charts, but their behaviors may differ greatly depending on the case size and bore size. Max charge of both may be the same in a .243, but 10% different in a 300WM.

1-800-622-4366, these guys(Hodgdon) will fill you in. J

I have correspondence from Hodgdon that it is the same powder and I have known it for years. You don't know what you are talking about.
If you have 5 different reloading manuals, they will give you a different number for the same powder. If one runs out of H 414 , one can replace it with W 760 and start low as with any new lot.

And they just told me again today. Stop misleading people when you do not know what you are talking about. Of course, there is a difference in lots in manuals.

They are OSTENSIBLY the same. However, as lots may vary up to 3% from the "standard" for that powder, you could conceivably get a can of 414 that is 6% faster or slower than a can of 760.

No two cans of powder are EVER exactly the same unless they come from the same lot number. Even then, if one has been opened, it will vary from an unopened one due to moisture changes.

They are the same as in IMR 4350 is IMR 4350 and IMR 4350 is not RL 22 but RL 22 is RL 22 and one lot of IMR 4350 is slightly different than another lot of IMR 4350 and the same with RL 22, one lot of RL 22 may be slightly different than another. Can you grasp that the manufacturers set out with a distinct recipe for each powder but that the recipe is the same for H 414 and W 760, even though the brand is different? The recipe for IMR 4350 and RL 22 is totally different, as my example.
Read my first post.

The widest variance I have seen has been with IMR 4831 in the 80' and 90's, up to 4.5 % approximately. For the rest the variance has been more on the order of 1 to 2 %.

slasher,

I haven't mislead a soul! I made a correct statment of fact. If you disagree then that is fine. One lot of one, is NOT like one lot of another...no matter how similar the recipe is. That alone makes them different...aside from differing manufactureres. All 4350s are not identical...nor are any unlike names powders from differing makers. They may be similar, and infact MAY give identical performance in one or 2 cases, but likely wont across the board.

Nothing I wrote in previous posts was intended to be taken as absolute and it was presented that way. Therefore it should not be taked as such, and should be taken as reference only.

When confronted with overwhelming facts, you simply lie and distort like a lawyer. Anyone can go back and read your several posts in other threads on this and it's obvious you are are lying right now.

I do not mean to get involved in any ongoing history here, but I also have read in a couple of sources that these powders are identical, in both cases.

It has been published that not only do H414 and W760 share the same recipe, they share the same production line.

In this case, Hogdgon and Winchester both buy the powder from the same manufacturer and then package it into their respective containers. The two brands may very well be from the same original lot, then on the other hand they may not. Thus there is the need to again work up the load when switching between them, just as in switching between lots of any powder.

I am not as sure about the pistol powders mentioned, but do seem to remember that the situation was the same with them.

Wierd, I swear I have seen load data where they list both W760, and H414, for a given bullet but with slightly different charges.

But...seems like I am the only one on this site that uses W760 anyway, LOL!

Let me try to analogize this...

You order an Angus steak today. It tastes great.

You order an Angus steak next week. It tastes great, but NOT EXACTLY THE SAME BECAUSE IT CAME FROM A DIFFERENT ANIMAL. Same cut, same breed of beef. Not identical performance.

No you ain't. I use lots of W-760. However, regarding whether W-760 and H-414 are different lots of the same powder, I've seen this statement made by at least three gunwriters in at least three or four gun rags. It's also said that HP-38 and W-231 are the same, but different lots as are W-296 and H-110. I believe that the differences in powder charges from manual to manual involve different gun, loading techniques and the variableness from lot to lot.
Pick the version you like best and enjoy yourselves.
Now, to more important issues. How many angels can dance on the point of a pin? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />
Paul B.

Not True! I have burned a bit of 760 in my rifles. I have a couple cans of 414 on the shelf right now. I really like the way they meter through the measure and they shoot well in my 260. Winchester powders are rare in the local stores but Hogdgon is everywhere. That is the reason it is the one on the shelf now.

The difference in data which you mentioned is easily explainable as caused by instrumental inaccuracy and simple lot to lot variations in burn rate.

Once again, this is the reason we are told to work up the load again for every lot # change in powder.

Im a liar? Screw you! I am not lying, just because you disagree with me. I have been clear that in some cases they may be identical...but data in books clearly indicates they are not always interchangable. Even if that is because they came off the same line but in different lots you f***in lying a$$hole!

I say YOU"RE lying because I say what I say is true and you dispute it...lying sack of [bleep]!

Facts are facts. You said multiple times they were not the same even when told repeatedly they were. That makes you a liar. Actually, also, you were posting in totally unrelated topics and threads that I was misleading folks by stating that the powder was the same. You are the lawyer aren't you? You post like someone on drugs and out of control.
Do you have a weird fixation on a powder, as in obsessive thoughts about powders, can't get them out of your head or something. Folks could be tired of H 414 and W 760.
See a psychiatrist.

You're the one lying. My posts above are there to be read. I made no statement of fact about one was not the same recipe. In fact my first post was merely cautionary and not a flame in nature, and simply warned of the dangers of thinking one powder was interchangable with another. Many powders share the same or similar burn rate...they are not interchangable per se. I said lot to lot they will vary even if the recipe is similar, and that is a FACT. Load data in books for H414 and W760 for the same wt bullet varies, and thats a FACT. Some powder burn rate charts list some powders between the 2 in burn rates. ALL FACTS! That you told me they are the same is a FACT...that they are the same because YOU told me the are is NOT A FACT. Disputing what you say doesn't make me a liar, you little prick. And if people are tired of H414 and W760 then YOU shouldnt start a thread about it. A$$HOLE!

And who is obsessing? You keep bringing up the fact I am a lawyer in a thread discussing smokeless powders? And I need to see a psyciatrist? I think you're the one with a problem and obsession. What do you do for a living? Too ashamed to put in on your profile? Im not ashamed of me or mine, its there on my profile for all to read. You trying to make it an issue in a gun forum makes you the idiot lying sack of turdage.

They are different in that lot x of imr4350 differs from lot y of imr4350, and that lot x and y of imr4350 differ from lot a of R-22.

Slasher, if it really gets you all fired up to say that H414 and W760 are the same. I wont dispute you. You are the man. Here is what you are right about. They are the "same" recipe (I dont know that but accept it if you say it). They have the "same" burn rate according to SOME charts. They vary lot to lot, and no lot of H414 is exactly like any lot of W760 just as no one lot of H414 is like another lot of H414. Thus they ARE the same, but they are not the same. Though they are the same the same way a square is the same as a rectangle and both are the same as a parallelagram...they all have 4 sides, all have a side opposite of it that is parallel to it and the same lenghth, but they are not interchangable. If you are so simpleminded that you win the argument by making a generic statement that they are the same...then they are the "same"...even though they're not. Its all in the definition of "same". Lawyers huh? The devil is in the details. Sometimes I wish I were as simple minded as people like you...life could be some much simpler if I were always right just because I woke up one day and decided I was, and no fact could change that.

"Read my first post" Dang, I forgot YOU DA MAN!