Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Backpack Hunting Surviving a hot, dry day

This last weekend I came perilously close to becoming a statistic. I'll spare the details in this forum, but I'll say that I agreed to help a local scout group (14-15 years old)through a hike in Zion's national park.

We ended up running out of water on two occasions. We took a wrong turn and had to back track several times. The sun was ruthless and unrelenting. Using waypoints I had created in my GPS, we were able to find our way back in the dark, and we returned to the trailhead at about 2 AM tired and dehydrated.

Again, I don't feel comfortable sharing the details here, but there were some key mistakes we made as a group. Honestly, I attribute many of the things that happened to us on the way out as divine help from above. Coming out of there I'd never prayed harder or relied on my equipment more. Thankfully, I had brought my GPS and had entered waypoints along the way, and I was able to walk back and guide the scouts through those waypoints to get us to safety before the sun came out again.

To me, this was a much more dangerous and scary situation than any I've encountered in the mountains. The heat and sun are ruthless killers. Fresh on my mind was the story of the scoutmaster in Nevada who died only two weeks ago while attempting something similar. With the temperatures where they were, the margin for error was razor thin.

So- what are the techniques and situations you've encountered that will help save your life and the lives of others in this type of a situation? Think hot sun in the desert. The cold, wet night thread has some wonderful information and I'd like to see if I can learn anything about the other end of the spectrum.

Scary situation. It doesn't take long before that kind of exposure to heat can do you in. I'm glad you and the troop made it out OK.

I've been looking at the Bushnell BackTrack as a cheap safety net to get back to home base: http://gps-tracker-review.toptenreviews.com/backtrack-gps-review.html.

GPS was a smart move. Did you waypoint your starting location?

Sat phone could be handy.

I haven't been in a similar situation, although I've done plenty of desert hiking (Zion, Joshua Tree, Anza Borrego..). I'd probably try to hole up or take cover during mid-day and hike out in the early morning and mid to late afternoon, when you dehydrate less.

I'm curious how you were carrying your water. You mention you ran out twice?

Eric

I actually was packing twice as much as I thought I needed, around 180 oz total in two large camelbacks. That ended up being a huge blessing as many of the scouts used my water when they ran out.

The original plan was to fill up at a spring along our route. When we got to that spot, the intended spring was dry. We were all out of water at that point. We continued along our route and found water at the bottom in the east fork of the virgin river, which I filtered and we drank.

We had also thought much or all of our hike would be in the water, but that didn't turn out to be the case. It was all dry.

The boys all had at least 4 16 oz bottles of water with them, but that wasn't enough by a long shot. We ran out again on the hike out.

We did hole up in the coolness of the canyon until about 6 pm, when we started the hike out. Most of the hike out was in darkness and the cool of night.

It's really amazing how fast you dry up in that heat when your water runs out - for me it took about 10 minutes. My mouth got so dry I couldn't swallow a sandwich I had packed. Scary stuff.

A sat phone is a great idea. I need to look into a provider for when I go on trips where help is more than a few minutes away or where cell reception is non existent.

Simple trail hikes can be a killer.

I have experienced the "unexpected snow". we had gear and good heads, and made it fine.

Still, Murphy is a bastid.

BMT

dryflyelk, Glad you and the boys made it out ok! Good thinking on the GPS, Zion can be brutal in the heat of the summer! I carry the gatoraide powder to mix with a couple of the bottles of water. I took a desert survival class in college, they recommended 4 qts of water per person.seemed a little much at the time, until hiking around Moab and we ran out too. It was 108 that day.

I haven't been anywhere near a desert but here's what I do for heat. If I know the area is going to be a dry area I carry a lot of liquids.

On a Philmont trek in 97 we took a trail that wasn't on the map by accident. I had 3 quarts of water and was almost out before we got more. When I got down to my last quart I got nervous. I have a water filter but it's of no use when there isn't any water. One of the kids in the trek was starting to get dehydration and had run out of water.

When I used to survey in East Texas I would get heat sick in the summer at least a couple of times a week. I could keep it away until mid to late afternoon. It didn't matter how much I drank I would still get light headed and flush. I have always made it a point to drink often, at times every 10 minutes if need be.

Now I'm in North Idaho and there have been a couple of hikes I like to go on in the mountains. However, in this area there is no water except for a creek that starts about a quarter of the way down a very steep side of a saddle. this is about a 7 mile hike but like I said I like to keep hydrated. this hike was in the summer and it was hot that day. Since I knew there was no water I carried a 100 ounce Camelbak, an extra quart of water in a canteen, and 2 quarts of Gatorade. I wasn't going to hike down the saddle that day so I wanted to carry extra. I hadn't been to the creek before so I didn't want to rely on it as a water source. By the time I got back to the truck I had 16 ounces of water left and 12-16 ounces of Gatorade left.

That might have started out as a lot of weight but to me it was worth it. I didn't feel sick from the heat, get flush, or light headed. It helped keep my energy levels up and I didn't get fatigued despite hiking up then down to a saddle and back up again to go back down to the truck. Fortunately my pack made the weight disappear.

Like I said I haven't been in the desert but I have hiked a lot in hot weather. What I like to do is look at where I'm going on a topo map. If there are areas of reliable water I may take less but I'd rather carry too much water than not enough.

The consequences of not having enough water are not worth it. I grew up next to a neighbour who suffered heat stroke because he was rationing his water during basic training because one of the water trucks broke down. He's fairly fine now but still has some trouble walking. When I first met him he could barely talk. He had to relearn talking, walking, etc. I got to see his progress as the years went by. When you first meet someone like that when you're young it makes an impression. Learn from other's mistakes.

Another thing, don't ration your water. It sounds like you're going in the wrong direction but if you do research they say its best to drink your water to keep hydrated in the mean time. Like I said I drink a lot. It's also been said that if you wait until you feel thirsty you're not drinking enough. In Philmont they always stressed looking at your urine color to make sure you've been drinking enough. It's also been said that eating while dehydrated only makes the condition worse since your body is trying to digest your food.

When I go out I like to bring a 100 ounce Camelbak and a quart of Gatorade at a minimum. The amount I carry might sound escessive but I have peace of mind and I've never been heat sick from the lack of water. Each boy carrying 2 16 ounce bottles is only 2 quarts of water. I forget the exact numbers but depending on exertion the body will go through X amounts of water. keep in mind the dry air of winter will also cause dehydration.

I have no where near the experience and depth some of you have, but keeping your kool and calling upon a Higher Power seems like good first steps when you realized things were going sour.

Usually I read about someone getting lost while hunting or in an avalanch when I read about disasters in Utah!, although Zions, Bryce, Canyonlands, Capital Reef can all be hot and claim lives.

You mentioned your extra rations of water that saved you and your scouts. Was I to plan that hike, would plan on and expect (severe) contengencies to occur like they did and distribute more of water among your scouts, maybe even doubling their water and increasing some calories to be carried too by adding only 4 to 7 additional total pounds to eack pack? Would that be possible?

Also I'd carry REQUIRE several signaling devices be carried by each scout - Coaches' whistles by each scout! And signaling mirrors like our military pilots carry, by each scout again. The adults can and should carry Coast Guard approved aerial red flares and or red smoke flares they require boaters to have on boats that venture into the ocean - at least four flares (two apiece) between you and at least one other chaperone Those devices can be seen 20-30 miles! (I'm am designing minimal survival gear [as part of my standard kit or hunting vests] to carry whenever I biggame or even upland bird hunt! Also when hiking, camping, backpacking, etc.

Each scout also should have red- white tipped kitchen matches, but also [hurricane matches] carried by each scout (when long range hiking, only for emergencies however - 2 or 3 apiece! (Hurricane matches can light damp tinder when a fire drill is too damp to work). Having a ferrocium metal match isn't a bad idea either.

I used to live Utah, and love that state. But reside now in WA state. I'm into survival a bit and after living in Utah for nineteen years before moving to the great north wett, was used to seeing in the Utah news a few people every year get lost in the snow or desert, die from heart attack during the deer hunt, kids fall into irrigation canals or early stream runoff, etc. Much of those incidents could be avoided with a little care or planning or training.

I think a lot of the adults and older folks can avoid/prepare for those contingencies through [minimal but essential] training not unlike some of the similar thinking used to help design/put together a 72-96 hour kit!

But it requires a little knowledge and respect for about nature too.

Also when buying a topo map of an area I'm going into, I read the 7-1/2 minute USGS maps have some of the best detail - compared to other scale USGS maps.

I have other ideas, but having that GPS was smart! Congrats on getting out of there with everyone of your scouts! Hope you're too discouraged from going again soon. Cheers!

Another thing I'll mention that really helped. I had brought salt sticks for myself - a capsule with electrolytes. I use these whenever I exercise and sweat and they work awesome. If you haven't looked into them, check them out. They work great.

I had grabbed a few for myself, but at the last moment, I thought I should get some more, so I took around 30. Well...by the time our hike was done, I was out of those as well. We doled those out and I think it really helped.

I have both the ones with caffeine and ones without, depending on what I'm doing. If you tend to lose a lot of salt and get cramps and or headaches after exertion, I'd get a bottle. Serious triathletes and marathoners swear by them.

http://www.amazon.com/Saltstick-Ele...75403&sr=8-1&keywords=salt+stick

http://www.amazon.com/Saltstick-Ele...75403&sr=8-2&keywords=salt+stick

regardless of every other move, sitting tight until 6pm was probably the key decision, IMO.

I carry an EPIRB, 5 liters of water (minimum), NUUN electrolyte replacement, and a filter whenever I hike but the real key is traveling as much as possible sans sun . **

**I'm an ultra runner and am comfortable travelling trails in the dark at speed.

I've been in a number of places, esp red-rock, where you couldn't stand to be in the direct sun long enough to hardly do more than rock-hop to a new shade spot during the daylight.

Wouldn't be surprised if you're right UL. Was certainly a good idea.

Something I've designed in having extra water and rations (two MRE retorts and two MRE crackers - minimum, fits in a @Trangia aluminum container in the small of my back, good enough to boil water/snow) to ALWAYS carry as part of my BG kit, is to carry some Gatorade packets (to add to 16-20oz water bottles) to replace electrolytes. Hopefully I wouldn't use one the first day if lost (to stretch it a little longer).

I don't own a cell phone - never have! But might have to look into a GPS or similar device, esp if MANY people were depending on it. I do have 2 or 3 compasses I carry (including 2 button compasses besides my better Silva).

My main survival kit is carried in a nalgene 32 or 48oz bottle (unless gathering carrying extra water) along with the Trangia tin (sealed shut with electrical tape until needed). The space for them was added (sewn) into the area below the shoulder blades/small of back. Of course if backpacking they go in a side pocket.

If its necessary to travel trails at night, sometimes in a Cabelas or Bass Pro catalogs, etc. have seen luminous/reflective "dots" for sale to use as trail markers for that purpose, like Hansel and Gretal?

I'll share the options that I strongly considered when we ran out of water the first time and what i was planning on doing.

First, I had my Garmin Rino with me, which is a GPS and a radio. At that point, it was serious enough that I was trying to scan radio channels looking for any kind of activity. If I was able to get in touch with anyone, I was going to ask for help. I thought we were going to have to get the scouts out with helicopters.

After I tried and failed to reach anyone on the radio, I realized that I don't know enough about that. I need to learn distress signals and/or channels and familiarize myself with how to get help via radio if necessary. I was able to pick up static on several channels but I never did hear voices.

Another option that I was strongly considering is starting a big signal fire. I would have chosen a place where the chances of catching the rest of the desert on fire were minimal. I was already planning how I would do it and what I was going to use. It was going to be BIG.

I also had a couple of emergency blankets with me. I had planned to hang those in the nearby trees so catch the attention of any rescuers or helis that should happen to come by.

This was the first time in my life where I was really scared in an outdoor situation. I've been in a few tight spots, but nothing like this. No water in the desert is a recipe for disaster. I will never let myself or any with me get into this type of a situation again. Lesson learned.

From what I understand it can get cold there at night. If you were going to make a fire you may have been better setting up the emergency blankets as a lean to. they would still be partially in the trees for a signal but would reflect the heat back onto everyone to keep warmer.

You were talking about MREs. I have epilepsy that I've had almost my whole life. It really started acting up in October 2011 and all through last year until August. I was having seizures every couple of months. My body chemistry changed so the meds didn't work anymore. Not to worry they have been switched up and I'm good again. However, I did get a concussion that lasted for a week and had multiple trips to the ER to get 14 stitches in my head. One time I even knocked my front teeth in half and had to get crowns.

Needless to say I prefer to carry more survival supplies than your typical hiker and some on here. I carry a couple of Olaes bandages in addition to my regular first aid kit. I also carry an extra MRE that I built. I picked up various parts for it from Emergency Essentials. That way I could put what I wanted in it and then I sealed it in a Foodsaver bag. Each meal I made has 1250 calories. I also carry a bivy and a Kifaru woobie.

Like I said I carry more than most but I have my reasons. If I was to have a seizure I wouldn't be coming back that night. You become disoriented, tired, sore, and dehydrated after having one. Walking is also very difficult and assistance is needed to do that. That's why I carry the bivy, woobie, and MRE. All stuff I can crawl into and eat without needing much dexterity. Fine motor skills are a no go. Taking all of this into account I make sure I can spend the night if I have to. I also bring an extra days worth of meds.

added text: I should mention that before I go out on a hike I print out a topo map and give it to my wife. On the map I have where the truck is going to be parked and where I should be hiking. I also tell her if I'm not on the trail I'll show the area of where I'll be. I also give directions to the trail head and since she doesn't know the plate number to our truck I write that down to.

Some years ago, the American Hunter ran an article about a guy who was hunting sheep in SW Idaho's desert. That area is full of deep canyons. He'd shot a sheep across a canyon and had to climb down and back up twice to get it out. The gist of the article was that in making the trip twice, he was getting dangerously dehydrated before it was over.
Well, I know that country and I know that the guy waded a shallow river at the bottom. He got dehydrated because he was so hung up on gut bugs that he was afraid to drink the water. If I'm in trouble, I'll drink out of a mud hole & let the doctor fix the bugs later. The guy was an idiot.

Amid a lot of good info, this one is excellent and basic common sense. On longer trips I have given her or a friend who knew the country a list of first, second, third choices etc. of where I intended to hunt and where I would park to access each area. Weather, other people etc. may force a change in plans once you arrive in an area you plan to hunt. I also give a return time and a time to call SAR, usually if I am 24 hours overdue. With the SPOT communication feature it is possible to send a simple "I'm OK at this location" message which I have used only when I moved to an area outside of the locations I'd left marked on the map left with my wife.

closest i've ever hiked to desert conditions was also philmont in '84. in the smokies, it's so dang humid in the summer. i carry the gatorade packets to mix in with water also like someone mentioned. i am a huge sweat hog. i carry a 3 liter camelbak and a water bottle to mix gatorade in. i know it's not the same as out west but the humidity can dehydrate you quickly also.

If you're hiking somewhere hot, and your first water source that is supposed to be there, ain't, turn around and get the [bleep] out.



Travis

sound advice.

Desert hiking?

Hike early. Hike late.

Sit and rest somewhere in the coolest shade available mid-day.

No sense wasting your stamina and your precious water supply by challenging the sun and the heat. It's silly to hike mid-day in the summer desert. Arrange the schedule to move in the morning and the evening, with a long siesta mid-day at some shady spot.

Guy

This may be sound advice in most cases, but for us, we had already done several repels with our ropes and climbing gear. It was a one way street. We could not go back the way we came.

GPS and communications , big + , try planning your routes on north facing slopes they are cooler. Shorten the distance, be to your target area by 10 am stay there till after 2 pm. If at all possible pre trip it and cache water half way in. Pay attention to rainfall amounts in the area prior to departure. Try setting up a route to a Known water source not a creek if possible. No salty foods on the trail or the night before the hike.Slow down and rest before you get the cotton mouth in High temps and sip water in small amounts at regular intervals rather that chug it because you bonked and its to late.Ration your resources if need be. Everyone carries the same amount of water. freezing some of the water will keep you from drinking it to fast. Don't panic!