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From Terry Cross on Snipers Hide:

I apologize in advance but I have to rant for a second.

I have always been a huge, huge Leupold advocate. They were always my benchmark for quality, innovation and U.S. workmanship. I own an awful lot of their product and continue to use it regularly.

However. . . . In the last few years, I have seen a change in the way Leupold does business and delivers product to the market. As they have grown, they have embraced many less than admirable traits that seem to define too many parts of American businesses. While their pricing has been steadily increasing at a faster rate than inflation, their quality has dropped. They are still capable of producing a sharp, repeatable optic but not as dependably.

My biggest aggravation with Leupold is the fact that less than 5% of their product line that can be legally stamped "Made in U.S.A." and I'm not even sure that those few are !!! What started out with a few of their Wind River imports has blown into an all out effort to prostitute their name brand for a dollar.

I just received 18 RX-4 range finders, 18 Tactical 10x50 Patrol Binoculars and 18 Mk 4 LR/T 4.5-14x50mm TMR Illum. scopes for a package deal I have to ship. This is pretty much suppossed to be their better gear. Guess what? Range finders "Made In CHINA". Binoculars "Made In China". Scopes have no country of origin marked on the packaging, instructions or product. Call back from Leupold informs me that the scopes are assembled in Oregon but so many of the parts and sub-assemblies are made over-seas (mostly China except for some of their lenses)that they do not qualify for the Made in USA stamp!

I can assure you that sourcing their components and products from China has dropped their costs very, very dramatically while they have continued to raise market prices. You know, honestly, it isn't even the price/profit thing that burns me. It is the fact that they chose to move their sourcing and manufacturing (I do consider "manufacturing" and "assembly" two different beasts in this instance) out of the country and specifically China. Why couldn't they keep most of their production here and just up their pricing 10%? Jesus, I could drop my selling price and triple my profit on freakin Pod-Loc kits if I used components from outside the U.S., but I refuse to go there. Guess that is why I still drive a 10 year old truck.

While they may still have satisfactory product performance and at least attempt innovative ideas occaisionally, I believe that they are straying from their roots, pumping a ton of money into foreign factories and putting yet another hole in the bottom of the lifeboat that retains at least a small fraction of our ability to domestically support our police and military logistics in the event of any serious conflict. I remain firmly convinced that we shall sorely curse the day that we wake up and realize that we need to raise our military to a task only to find out we have cut off our own legs. I aim this statement not only at Leupold but other textile, steel, electronics and molding industries based in the U.S. You don't just start that [bleep] back up inside the U.S. borders overnight.

I will continue to use my original Leupold products but I shall migrate away from giving their company blanket support. I will, instead continue to give more and more support to companies that take risks, accept slightly lower margins and consciously make the effort to strengthen our own economy and workforce. As you purchase your gear or spec out the equipment for your agency bids, please consider more than F.O.V. and click value.

I would seriously love to debate the execs at Leupold in front of their Board about some of this.

DISCLAIMER: I know that some out there will have personal budgets at home that restrict your choices to imports and I totally respect that. A non-US product is better than no product at all in some cases.

DISCLAIMER #2: Yeah, that was more than a second. Sorry.
TC

Answer from Lowlight on Snipers Hide.

Amen,

Every year they seem to get farther and farther away from what made them the company worthy of the reputation they have, which I personally feel is no longer warranted.

The shear number of them we see problems with is staggering, on military weapons systems no less. They seem to be completely out of touch with the shooter, all shooters, Civilian, Law Enforcement, and Military.

Unfortunately people still flock to their products based on the past reputation, regardless of the fact their current products don't hold up to that standard.

dave

You may have missed this which is understandable for a man of your age...

All accomplished with current Leuopold offerings.

Terry Cross is a good shooter but never saw his name at any of my "Army Man" shoots. He shoots mainly tactical/precision matches.

Guys who shoot F-class and benchrest can get by with Burris products

Burris is cranking out some nice scopes these days. Leupold should change their scope instructions to read: "one click = ? at 100yds. Good luck."

You're clueless dog!

Actually DC you'll need to take a trig book and a calculator along to figure out the "angle".
For Leupolds canted reticle.
That is after you come up with the "one click = ? value.
Provided that value doesnt change as you crank it up.
But hay.
Its all good.
Even for guys that like to play army man.


dave

http://www.precisionrifleseries.com/archives

Mark "Panda" Quintana wins 2011 TPRC with a Leupold scope

Tate Moots Runner Up at 2011 Snipers Hide Cup with a Leupold

Both live here.

Leupold click values work in the real world with real shooters as opposed to guys who spend their time posting on the internet 5000 to 11,000 times

Originally Posted By: 3sixbits
Leupold failures? So common it is no secret at all. Most people that actually shoot rifles a lot as in benchrest will not be quiet on this subject of Leupold failures. It always comes down to the same old thing that Leupold refuses to address. Spring failure on the erector tube. That's why Cecil Tucker has been doing a spring up grade for years. I'm sure for anyone that has ever seen a Nightforce scope and wondered what that spring housing on the scope was for, now has and answer.

I was a long time advocate of Leupold since the early 70's. I no long recommend them to anybody. I had one conk out on me on a Yukon river hunt. I still have a goodly number of these Leupold scopes, they are slowly getting sold or traded off.

I don't want to hear anybodies BS about how clear they are. I don't care, if a scope lags after the adjustment or does not hold zero, you can put it where the sun don't shine. There is only one scope out there I have full faith in nowadays and that is Sightron. S&B is so highly priced I no longer recommend, great scope but when they exceed the price of the rifle, they leave most people out in the cold.

"Sightron IS THE ONLY SCOPE THAT HAS LICKED THE ERECTOR TUBE PROBLEM"

I could careless what your opinions are about the scopes on your closet Queens, Go to the range and try to square a target. If you have a Leupold that will square the target, you are past lucky.

The only Leupold you can trust are the modified Tucker scopes. This also screws your warranty.

JUST WAIT TILL YOU HAVE ONE OF THESE SCOPES FAIL ON YOU ON A HUNT OR AT A MATCH.



Sightron is the only scope that I have purchased in the last ten years that I have confidence in the erection tube for proper adjustment movement. They hold zero. I don't give a flying F--k one way or another what kind of proof you require, means nothing to me. When I have had pissing contests about Leupold scopes it has always been with Leupold. I started out being the biggest supporter they had, that changed with scope failures starting in the early 1980's.



dave

Yep, now I see your point.

My Leupold failed this morning after checking my zero. I shot a 5 shot group at 100 that had the same POI it's had for about 500 rounds then decided to shoot a 656 yard plate.

Dialed 3.9 mils and let 3 rip...







2 1/4" group


Have you used any Leupolds since the most modern ones you owned had friction adjustments, said "Vari-X" 11 on them?

LOL

Oh, BTW, Team Leupold's Tate Moots won the Heavy Metal Three Gun Championship at Whittington 3 days ago.

Think he was using a Sightron? LOL

You guys are nuts.

Tasco is where it's at.

You're welcome.

From 24hour
This is the Shot Show report from Accurate Rifles;


A Contrast in Style � American vs. European Optics-Makers
Among the major optics makers, the difference between American and European marketing styles was painfully obvious. Leupold and Burris had fast-talking, glad-handing salesmen, who, for the most part, knew very little about their product line and even less about optics engineering. By contrast, Zeiss and Schmidt & Bender staffed their booths with real optics engineers with Ph.Ds, many of whom were directly involved in the design of the products on display. At Zeiss we spent nearly an hour talking with Stephan Albrecht, the German engineer in charge of the new 20-75X Diascope spotting scope and the new Diavari Flourite riflescopes. During our conversations with Stephan he actually solicited our feedback, took careful notes and promised to explore some of our suggestions. We also were able to share our field test results directly with Eric Schumacher, President of Carl Zeiss Optical, USA. By contrast, Leupold�s decision makers and top-level engineers were nowhere to be found, and when we voiced our (now annual) plea that Leupold stop building scopes with canted reticles, we were greeted with nothing but blank stares. Leupold�s reps couldn�t comprehend the canted reticle problem, even after I pulled a scope (with 3� canted reticle) off their display rack and showed them.

Butch
Butchlambert


Thats good shooting rc.
Glad its working for you.


dave

Thanks dave!
Must be the schitty scope kinda randomly putting shots there, cuz God knows I can't shoot worth a lick!

With a good quality Burris or Sightron, my beginner form would be exposed I'm sure!

So, dave...

This is the Long Range Hunting forum. Do you do any hunting?

Looks more like 2 1/2" to me!!

It's possible. The tape was made by Zeiss

Not sure why people put so much personal worth in inanimate objects...


Leupolds are good scopes. They generally hold zero well, they are light, and they have better than adequate glass. For most hunters they are a great choice. They also have a high a high rate of incorrect tracking, inconsistent tracking, and canted reticles.

Leupold has made great strides with their latest LR scopes, i.e. the 34mm tubed Mark 4, the Mark 6, and Mark 8. The variable Mark 4's and hunting lines are not in any way reliable enough for consistent LR use.




Lest one think otherwise, I say this seeing, shooting and testing hundreds of issued Leupold Mark 4's, and hundreds of Leupold hunting scopes shot in classes and training.

I still use several Leupold scopes but I have no problem admitting that they have serious issues.

Not putting an ounce of self-worth in the scope, just tired of seeing Leupold being bashed by many who don't base their opinion on objective, measurable facts.

Very few have the equipment actually necessary to be able to accurately evaluate a scope and come to a conclusion that can't be disputed.

Do you have one of these?....






It's a very sophisticated apparatus to rigidly hold a barreled action, precisely mount the scope accurately to the centerline of the bore within .001" at 6".

It is then aimed at a board that is measured to the 1/4" in distance away from the scope. The board is accurately marked vertically in MOA and MRad. The scope is boresighted then aimed at -0-

It is then put through its elevation adjustments for the full range. Any discrepencies between what is dialed and what actual reticle movement is can be seen and recorded. Reticle subtensions can be evaluated as well to see if they actually are what the manufacturer says. The vetical line on the board is laser-leveled and how the reticle tracks up and down that line during the entire adjustment range can be observed. Any backlash or lag in adjustment vs. reticle movement can be observed.

Not many folks have this equipment even some of the scope manufacturers who have been mentioned in this thread. I know this for a fact.

For someone without this equipment to then make statements as fact about certain manufacturer's products is rediculous and based on opinion only. It's like saying you know the condition of your bore without ever having looked at it with a borescope

I have access to this equipment and use it. I also am in the loop with those who regularly use it performing precision mounts on thousands of scopes if every make. I know which brands are good and which aren't so good

The bottom line is that Leupold and Vortex are a hell of a lot of scope for the money and consistently outperform others mentioned as favorites here.

If the scope doesn't hold up in field, it doesn't matter one iota how it tested on an "instrument".

I'll trust real world experience over theory every time.

Great! Use what works for you and you have confidence in.

Please also tell us what scope you use, post some pics of your first hand experience, targets, long range kills and any other accomplishments from competition with the scope you use.

All you have done on this thread is post your opinion with not one iota of support for it.

Rick you will get the same result from arguing with these guys as beating your head against the drywall....

I really hate confrontation and arguing.

I just post facts.

Had a teacher in high school that emphasized that when you wrote a paper taking a position, if you couldn't support that position with fact, you would fail.

Sick of opinion based on what others say. Empirical data is King.