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You know what would be great? If everybody - extremists on both sides, lawmakers, lawyers, hunters, tourists, general wackos - stopped obsessing about wolves and focused on a species that actually needs help. There are a lot of species that actually need that time and money spent on them. Wolves, elk, moose and deer are going to be just fine. I am not saying don't study them so that we can inform our management decisions. Studies like the Bitteroot are very important. But all that other wasted energy spent on wolves could be redirected to say, pallid sturgeon, a species that is on life support right now. Or developing an effective method of removing lake trout from Yellowstone and Flathead lakes. Or funding research towards creating vaccinations to ward off disease in bighorn sheep.
It is frustrating. The wolves are hear to stay and they are going to be managed like other big game animals. Everybody just needs to accept that fact and move on with life.
Nels
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What was the number prior? Prior to wolves,or the ranch being closed off to the public?
I wanted to take a scalp, but the kill was not mine.
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It is frustrating. The wolves are hear to stay and they are going to be managed like other big game animals. Everybody just needs to accept that fact and move on with life. The dude that runs Lobo watch will never be able to do that. There are those among us that think this is short term. Your right it's sad.
I wanted to take a scalp, but the kill was not mine.
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Either or both.
I'll be the first to admit that we need wolves. There's no question on that.
What we don't need are the numbers we have and a half assed management plan.
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What's wrong with a plan that allows us to kill up to 5 wolves? Most of the problem I see with the plan is guys would rather sit and complain than actually hunt wolves after general big game is over. mtmuley
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What we don't need are the numbers we have and a half assed management plan.
That statement could just as easily be applied to elk. Just saying...
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Either or both.
I'll be the first to admit that we need wolves. There's no question on that.
What we don't need are the numbers we have and a half assed management plan. There would be a couple hundred elk show up during hunting season in the old days. Then a gal bought the ranch and shut down all hunting. The elk herd grew quite large. Wolves showed up around 98 - 2000. Even though they have free passage up there, elk have increased. It's mostly mountainous in nature. The elk have no sanctuary from wolves. It is however a sanctuary from man and his machines. The old Stock farm was about the same size. In the old days, 70's and 80's there was around 700 + elk living there, and would come all the way down to the golf course and get shot. They migrated to low residential areas a lot. There were no wolves pushing them down. They came down for the green alfalfa. When there's drought the only greenery is on irrigated lands. We have been in a drought for a long time, and many generations of elk only know the irrigated stuff now. I think that has more to do with where they are at than the wolf. On the wolf numbers, I don't know if your paying attention or not, but we have decreased them. They didn't get to where they are today over night, and it will take a little while. We've only been managing wolves for a few years now, and have to make sure we don't do anything stupid. We only get one shot at managing them. We are under a probationary period for 5 years after delisting. If the wolf serial litigants can prove that we are undermining the recovery efforts then a judge can shut all management down. If that happened again, how would our crappy management plan look to you? If your not happy with the way the plans shaping up I'd say you never will. I'll be laying steel in the ground, while you sit on the computer and complain.
I wanted to take a scalp, but the kill was not mine.
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The dingo ate my baby!  Saw a couple big wolf turds last week while in swapping SDRAM cards on trail cameras. No wolf pictures. If there's so many of them, get out and kill a few...
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Prolly shoulda brought him inside for the night.
Pointer. Yeah Bulls to cows ratio's are horrible. Cow calf ratio's as well. There's a state piece couple miels away that gets hunted like a shooting gallery. Ted's herd crossed the street and within minutes all the bulls were poked. [bleep] pathetic stuff I tell ya. FWP just watched. One SOB piled up a near if not 400 class. Pretty much ran it down on a wheely buggy.
The management plan. As I see it. Is just like any other gubmint plan. Gluttonous in the beginning (re-introduction) and to little to late in the end. (Hunting/trapping)
41 lay all the steel you want. Would love to see your results. I'll sit here and whine just so you have someone to bitch at as well. I spend every day afield rain or shine. Don't fret.
I've little faith in any numbers they report on the wolves. I worked with another arm of the Fish and Game/FWP/Game and Fish when the wolf thing started to hit the mainstream. The numbers that were actually seen and counted were not even [bleep] close to the numbers they "officially" said there were. You keep believing what they say. I'd rather listen to the people I work and live with. Seeing as we are actually out here seeing it first hand. Not from some formula or areo vehicle.
I've plenty of plans to wing lead this year. The only thing I'll be waiting for is them to cross the street. It would be much more smooth like if Ted would cut some fence. I have a few miles to play in.. so we'll see.
You think they have a solid management plan? Seriously?
I've stock to protect. It's my management plan.
'bout time ole griz gets a tag too.
I'll take the bow and rifle for a horsey ride as well. We'll see what happens.
I prefer days like the 80's and early 90's. Everyone seemed more happy like.
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Prolly shoulda brought him inside for the night.
Pointer. Yeah Bulls to cows ratio's are horrible. Cow calf ratio's as well. There's a state piece couple miels away that gets hunted like a shooting gallery. Ted's herd crossed the street and within minutes all the bulls were poked. [bleep] pathetic stuff I tell ya. FWP just watched. One SOB piled up a near if not 400 class. Pretty much ran it down on a wheely buggy.
The management plan. As I see it. Is just like any other gubmint plan. Gluttonous in the beginning (re-introduction) and to little to late in the end. (Hunting/trapping)
41 lay all the steel you want. Would love to see your results. I'll sit here and whine just so you have someone to bitch at as well. I spend every day afield rain or shine. Don't fret.
I've little faith in any numbers they report on the wolves. I worked with another arm of the Fish and Game/FWP/Game and Fish when the wolf thing started to hit the mainstream. The numbers that were actually seen and counted were not even [bleep] close to the numbers they "officially" said there were. You keep believing what they say. I'd rather listen to the people I work and live with. Seeing as we are actually out here seeing it first hand. Not from some formula or areo vehicle.
I've plenty of plans to wing lead this year. The only thing I'll be waiting for is them to cross the street. It would be much more smooth like if Ted would cut some fence. I have a few miles to play in.. so we'll see.
You think they have a solid management plan? Seriously?
I've stock to protect. It's my management plan.
'bout time ole griz gets a tag too.
I'll take the bow and rifle for a horsey ride as well. We'll see what happens.
I prefer days like the 80's and early 90's. Everyone seemed more happy like. Well said. I agree wholeheartedly. I have and do live in MN and MT. Both of which are thick with wolves, and , might I add, in my opinion have more wolves than than stated. I have absolutely no trust in the govt numbers. Shoot, I don't trust the govt with much of anything but that is a different post for a different day. I too wish for the good old days. When I hunt I do it for two reasons. The experience and the chance of harvest. Seems as though for several reasons the game numbers are down. I'm sure it's not just the big dogs but to say they don't have a role isn't logical. I just wish the govt would have stuck with their original plan and not allowed the greenies to push their agenda into the wilderness. I'm with ya cocadori. If you need another gun and/or spotter let me know and we can try to ventilate a couple.
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4100, the only thing I disagree with you on is the elk coming to the valley floor. Sure the herds were and are still drawn to the alfalfa and other crops, but I think the wolves play a role in why we have so many resident herds low, even on the riverbottom. In years past, elk herds seldom, if ever remained as low on the valley floor as they do now. Now, with "no hunting" trophy ranches of the wealthy, and wolves in the high country, why wouldn't an elk live low? mtmuley
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Seen enough to know the populations are adversely being affected. Yet there are those who say they are fine and all is well. Are we in the haydays of the 80-90's no not even... We are in a downward spiral. Much of which is Canis Lupis results. Yeah the bears and cats take their share but I've seen too many resutls of sport killings and practice sessions to be that ignorant. Where were you in the 80s and 90s? Pretty damn sure it wasn't around here hunting elk. Pointer. Yeah Bulls to cows ratio's are horrible. Cow calf ratio's as well. There's a state piece couple miels away that gets hunted like a shooting gallery. Ted's herd crossed the street and within minutes all the bulls were poked. [bleep] pathetic stuff I tell ya. FWP just watched. One SOB piled up a near if not 400 class. Pretty much ran it down on a wheely buggy. When you say "Ted's" you must mean Ted Turner, and the flying d. 400 class.. yeah right. How many "400 class" elk you think have been taken in that area in the last 50 years? Try zero. Your stories are dumber than the lobowatch or national enquirer. Fair enough...guys like me tend to believe everything on the internet. We hardly ever listen to science or even better yet old geezers who were literally born and raised here. They hardly have anything to compare things with.
Being "born and raised here" doesn't count for [bleep]. Most the locals bitching about the wolves aren't too brilliant, they're just guys who notice the elk that used to hang under the pivots and in the pastures are not likely there anymore. Why is that? Rocket science reveals that wolves are smart predators and pick the easy pickens. There's wolves in the higher country, but most focus on the foothills, and mobs of elk. The displacement doesn't mean they are gone or in a downward spiral.. I started playing with trail cameras this year. From the 500+ video clips/photos I got in 2 weeks, it appears there's no cows left. It's all bulls. Tell me what the cow bull ration is Mr. elk biologist. The reason the hunter success rate is low on elk is because so many elk hunters are almost as stupid as you. You're going to need more than a string of ponies and a plan on Ted Turner's fenceline to kill an elk, you're going to have to look into getting a brain transplant.
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You know, you are right. I should not have said 400. That was hearsay from the crowd. But they sure did look official in the uniform like atire.
You should quit looking at your camera. Pick your head up. Unless you've got one that has the super bat lens.
My stories eh. You should see what happens out this way when the light turns green. No story tellin. Many have seen the same.
I wouldn't sit on Ted's fence line even if you said it was the thing to do. But I do help feed the herd that pastures where my stock does most of the winter. Funny as hell you say there are more bulls than cows. Now that's some story tellin. Since you have the numbers lets hear em professor. I'll be glad to snap a trail-cam photo for you of how the bulls outnumber the cows this winter.
Since you know so much about these wolves tell us all the way it is.
These Elk are being driven to places they've not been a regular customer of. It isn't because the grass in greener and the water is sweeter either.
More bulls than cows.. now that's funny. Whens the last time that happened ...ever.
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Since you know so much about these wolves tell us all the way it is.
He did. That guy puts more time and effort into elk hunting than most folks here put into their job. If he says there are some good bulls out there you can bet there are. Wolves or no wolves.
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I know what he's about. Never said there wasn't good bulls out there. There's many. To say the numbers arn't affected by wolves...well. Being "born and raised here" doesn't count for [bleep]. Most the locals bitching about the wolves aren't too brilliant, they're just guys who notice the elk that used to hang under the pivots and in the pastures are not likely there anymore. Wow... I'm out. I've no time for Campfire typical threads. Have fun.
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The numbers are affected by wolves, in some areas more than others. More often than not, there are other factors besides wolves that cause the down numbers. It's interesting that where I live our herd counts are up after we quit hammering hundreds of cows every year. And supposedly there are over a dozen wolf packs in this valley. I know there are a good number, I see sign almost every time I hunt. I see elk too. I'm gonna have to get a trail cam or two. mtmuley
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You said something I agree with. You must be the only rocket scientist that reads lobowatch and the national enquirer. AGAIN - Where were you in the 80s and 90s when some of the rest of us where hunting elk out here? Now, where did anybody say elk numbers "aren't" affected by wolves or that there's more bulls than cows? How far along in school did you make it? Enjoy the view from the pasture/saddle, hanging with smart people, and reading lobowatch.
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Hey Cocadori
thanks for the information in your original post. I agree with it.
I am going to forget about this thread now and go shooting. Maybe craft a wolf target or two.
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Oh and thanks for enlightening us with the facts of wolves and elk. Much appreciated. I'm outta here too. Going to pull another 10Gig of bull elk photos from the cameras.. Keep posting dumb stuff. It's highly entertaining.
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4100, the only thing I disagree with you on is the elk coming to the valley floor. Sure the herds were and are still drawn to the alfalfa and other crops, but I think the wolves play a role in why we have so many resident herds low, even on the riverbottom. In years past, elk herds seldom, if ever remained as low on the valley floor as they do now. Now, with "no hunting" trophy ranches of the wealthy, and wolves in the high country, why wouldn't an elk live low? mtmuley We hardly had any ATV's back then either. Now there's hundreds, if not thousands of them running around on NF. Craig Jourdonnais had some elk collared in the Bitterroot study going on, they were using NF lands until Labor day weekend. Then on that weekend most of the cows collared headed to the CB ranch. Why would that be? Wolves don't increase pressure on Labor day, but recreationists out running all over he!! do. I know a ranch on the east side of the Valley that never had elk, but a few showed up. They ate a little alfalfa and stuck around, then they had calves, and they stuck around. After a decade the herd has grown quit large without predation, or hunting pressure. Those elk don't know anything different. Their whole lives are spent going to and from alfalfa fields. Those elk put our migrating elk herds in peril. They made the the elk population numbers look high so we went to liberal season structures. Guess where the elk got killed? The public land migrating elk died because of this new type of elk. If it was gust wolves running elk to the river bottoms, then why are elk on the big ranches, that have land in the mountains, like the CB, and MG where wolves exist? How about the Big Hole Valley where wolves run the willows? Wolves don't know property boundaries, but humans do.
Last edited by 4100fps; 07/19/13.
I wanted to take a scalp, but the kill was not mine.
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