Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting Killing deer at 1000 yards

DaveKing,
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<br>There are many States that are over-run with deer and have liberal bag limits. The fact that they are perceived as varmints doesn't make it ethical for the 99% majority of hunters to take shots that you and a very few others may have the skill to make on a consistant basis.
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<br>I heard Vince Lombardi speak at a conference once. He said that American men, perhaps men in general, feel that they are genetically endowed to do three (3) things well:
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<br>1. Drive a car.
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<br>3. Coach a team.
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<br>Coach Lombardi felt that most of them way over-estimated their skills in all three (3) areas. From what I have observed in the field and on the range for the last forty (40) years, Vince was 99% right.
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<br>If you can shoot deer consistantly at long ranges and kill them in as humane a manner as is possible, given that you are killing a living being that has done you no harm, you are perhaps a better and more confident shot than I. Good luck killing all those corn fed deer!
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<br>Sincerely,
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<br>Bearrr264
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carbonman,
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<br>You raise a very good question regarding wind drift with changing or fishtailing conditions. Perhaps Dave King will address this.

Thanks for the welcome all...nice to be here. Dave... I just came south to the NWT from a 9 year stint in the high arctic in Nunavut. My wife and I could get 10 caribou a year and these animals are very numerous.
<br>They are also easier to kill than a dear but I have seen some awful stuff at long range. Even with great gear and ability I think 1000 yards is too long to ensure a good kill very time and when the range is far a second shot to sort things out is even more uncertain. Hey I aint any-ones dady here so you can think what you like but that's my thought on the subject..

Carbonman
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<br> Firstly, I'm not an Ultra Long Range hunter and limit my distances to what I'm practiced to, about 1000 yards.
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<br> I shoot from the prone position with the aid of a bipod and sandsock (if required).
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<br> I calculate wind using a modified British method, for my 308 I use 1 MOA every 100 yards for a 10mph full value wind but begin with 1 MOA at 200 yards. It's simple for me and easy to remember, 10mph full value wind, 200 yards = 1MOA correction, 400 yards = 3 MOA correction, etc. I call wind from look and feel not by any instrument, if I'm on a range I'll use the flag(s) if available. Remember that wind calling is a personal thing, I may call a 12mph instrument wind as 10mph but as long as I'm consistent the system works.
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<br> If a hunter chooses to shoot in the wind, and a full value wind at that (I'll let your 3mph be full value as that's what I assume you desire) then he must accept the consequences. This 3mph would be .3 MOA at 200 yards, 1 MOA at 400 yards and so on using my wind call method. This amounts to about a 4 inch error at 400 yards, not yet a gut shot. Increasing the variables decreases the acceptable distance a hunter can shoot.
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<br> If the wind is from a constant direction (full value) with a 3mph variablility and I opted to shoot in this wind I'd probably figure the lower wind value, call it 3mph and the upper wind value 6mph (my 3 plus your 3). I'd dial on the lower limit 3mph and hold on the wind side edge of the kill zone. This assumes that I feel the need to take this shot (which I probably wouldn't) and that even if the wind then increases to the value of 6mph the round will impact in the kill zone. Once again, it all boils down to personal limitations... "can I confidently make this shot".
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<br> Each hunter should know his/her personal limits/abilities and shooting game (not varmint) animals at long range in a fickle full value wind is not a good idea in my book. Remember that long range hunting is not the same as long range target shooting, there are no time limits and the shooter can opt to not shoot or the shooter can close the distance or relocate in a no value wind location. For me personally, I shoot when I am confident that all things are correct, this applies at any distance not just long range.
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<br> Your shots in Montana were acceptable to you because of the "perfect" conditions. These "perfect" conditions gave you sufficient confidence to shoot, your practice and training made this possible in those conditions. I see no fault in your judgment, this same type of judgement is what most professed and practiced long range hunters use.
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<br> Sorry about the "no answer on the 3mph wind" but setting up to shoot on the outer limit of ones abilities is a bad idea and not required.
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<br> Now the rest of your specific questions.
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<br> How many deer have I killed? Probably close to 500, of those the vast majority were at distances less than 300 yards. Of the deer I've killed (elected to shoot would be more appropriate) while game hunting at my version of long range I've lost none, of the deer I've shot on depredation permits I've probably misplaced (I'll explain this) 10 or 15. Deer that I have wounded then tracked and lost (these were not long range as you know) 3 as I can recall.
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<br> Misplaced deer... when I shoot depredation deer it's done to clear all antlerless deer. One method I use is to shoot from one location without moving and shoot until the deer stop coming into range or nightfall. The fields I shoot over vary, they may be corn, pumpkins, alfalfa, fallow or even woodlots. Sometimes there are enough deer on the ground that not all deer can be found in the confusion of the various kills. Pumpkin patches seem to be the worst for this "hiding dead deer" property, the leaves are big enough to create a canopy sufficient to completely hide a deer. These "misplaced" deer are subsequently found via scavanger activity or through the "stinker" method.
<br>(Depredation is not hunting and the rules are different.)
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<br>My method of long range hunting does not involve "spotter" shots. I'm a first round hit type hunter and the distances I shoot are limited by this method and the gear I use.
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Takujualuk
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<br> I agree that 1000 yards is a long way and that is one were to shoot in all conditions at those distances then there will be a big problem. The shots dedicated long range hunters make at those distances are calculated not "poke and hope". The vast majority of the professed long range hunters that I know are practiced and knowledgable. Discussions I enter into here are about the professed type long range hunters, not the poke and hope folks.
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<br>All
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<br> There is not a good method for relating the capabilities of knowledgable long range shooters without directly witnessing it. Each year I introduce new folks to long range shooting and with rare exception they are completely awed. I most often use a range near my home that is setup to 940 yards, the targets being unknown distances with the exception on a 100 yard "zero" range. The folks being intruduced are taken to the 100 yard "zero" range and the rifles are zeroed and scope turrets reset. We then proceed to the "near" platform and shoot the 720 yard series and if time permits we move to the "far" platform and shoot the 940 yard series. The targets are large by hunter standards and huge by varmint standards but the point is to get the shooter confident in hitting the targets first, then we proceed to shoot a "place" on the target rather than just the target as a whole. Folks are generally "hooked" the first time out but it takes many many sessions before they become proficient at wind.
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<br> Accurate long range shooting can be summed up fairly easy, practice good marksmanship techniques (good position, consistent trigger control and sight picture and follow through) know the trajectory of the round in the prevailing conditions. Simply having a good "zero" value and knowing the trajectory of the rifle and round at all ranges out to the shooters limit will allow the shooter to adjust the sights or scope and get the correct verticle impact. The problem is as Carbonman stated, the wind... so shoot in a no value or no wind situation and you're pretty much setup. Once you're comfortable with the trajectories at distances then begin to unravel the wind problems.
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<br> It's not too difficult, it just requires good gear, good consistent ammo, knowledge of trajectories and lots of practice.
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Dave:
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<br>You may have mentioned this before, but I CRS so I'll ask again, what triggers and trigger pull do you use in your rifles?
<br>As usual, your explanation of LR shooting is so superior and diplomatic compared to some of the rest that they should just pay you to answer posts and keep quiet unless discussing technical issues.
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<br>If it is a slow evening, must be awfully tempting sometimes to try one of those pumpkins. LOL

Dave,
<br>Thanks for the straightforward answers. It is apparent that you have a system that works for you. None of what you posted strikes me as buzz words or canned responses.
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Hey Dave King -
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<br>What caliber do you use when you're culling deer? Someone told me it's a 223, or something.
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<br>R-WEST

Dave,
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<br>Thanks for the well thought out response. You'd be welcome in my hunt camp anytime. Regards

IIFID
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<br> I shoot custom rifles but they all have standards Remington triggers. The gunsmiths I use generally set them to about 2.5lbs (some competitions check trigger weight, last check I had was for 1kg/2.2lbs) or I'll reset them myself.
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<br> For a while I tried aftermarket triggers, Jewell, Shilen, Timney but it's difficult for me to maintain consistency in trigger control with different shoes and weights. There is nothing wrong with the aftermarket triggers I've tried it's just that I don't need to be thinking "which trigger am I using and what is the pull weight" while shooting, I find it very distracting.
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<br> Shooting over pumpkins was very interesting the first few times out, Actually it never occured to me that deer would eat pumpkins (I guess I figured they had no method to make the pie). The fella called me initally to get rid of the groundhogs, he became confident in my ability, safety and asked me to help with the "pumpkin" deer problem.
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<br> Deer are very interesting and I'm sure most folks think in human terms when discussing their traits and habits. Several real eye openers in the "thinking wrong" arena for me;
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<br> First time I watched deer eat corn, a smallish doe was feeding on the edge of the field and I tracked her progress by watching the tops of the stalks as she would pull the ears off and eat (I now call this "deer fishing" as it greatly reminds me of waiting for the tip-up rigs when ice fishing). When she came into view (very close) I watched her technique... she grabbed the ear by the silk end and quickly jerked the ear off the stalk, once the ear was on the ground she placed on hoove on it and shucked the upper/exposed side. She only took a few bites from the ear and only ate the corn and silk then moved on. After the episode completed and she was loaded I began thinking about the event and couldn't find any rational explanation for my belief that a deer should roll the ear over and eat the entire ear as a human would do. The deer eat as the deer eat, I don't believe they have any concept of conservation or waste, "the field if full of food, take a few bites and move on" is what I believe they "think". I see the same thing with the pumpkins, they kick/stomp a hole in a pumpkin shell, eat a bit then move on others deer may share as the smallest deer apparently have difficulty holing the pumpkins. The deer and groundhogs seem to sample the pumpkins, some pumpkins only have a nibble from them or just a hoove hole. I know someone is thinking.... "How much damage can a groundhog to to a pumpkin. Pumpkins are so big that one would feed a groundhog for a long while." Well, we're human so these ideas are allowed but think about this...Pumpkins don't begin life full size, they start out small and grow. The groundhogs don't wait for the pumpkin to get full size and one groundhog can eat or "sample" a lot of little pumpkins. (They also eat/nibble off the pumpkin plant/s.)
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<br>IIFID, it's been a pleasure chatting with you again. Good luck and take care.
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<br> /r
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RWest
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<br> For crop damage I have used a .223, most recently as last evening. I also use shotgun (slugs), 308 Win, 300 Win Mag, 338 RUM and others.
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<br> As I mentioned above, crop damage/depredation is not hunting and the conditions are different. The deer generally arent disturbed or spooky (initially) so controlled shots are possible. There's no worry about other hunters disrupting the hunt or alerting the deer. It's very different and has greatly changed the way I hunt and the methods I use.
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<br>Carbonman
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<br> Thanks, I do talk/post from the cuff and not from canned responses.
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<br> I believe you posted that you're a Master High Power shooter, I got my Master certification while stationed at Camp Pendleton shooting at the Santa Margarita (5th Marines) range I believe. I was fortunate enough (didn't know it then) to shoot with some great shooters and they taught me a lot, Mid Tompkins, Eric St John, Art Luppino, Billy Baker and others.) I also (I am retired Navy) was honored to be able to shoot on the Marine Corp Base, Camp Pendleton rifle team captained by WO Tom Bathory (They, the Marines, did give me a hard time every once in a while, called me "squidly" but only affectionally.)
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<br> I don't shoot High Power anymore and don't often compete anywhere big nowadays, too much confusion and I like non-confusion since I retired from the military.
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<br> Here's a few matches I competed well in:
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<br>http://community.webshots.com/photo/31598400/34915947hemvIA
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<br>http://community.webshots.com/photo/31598400/34915759TDdzCN
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<br>Cheaha
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<br> If you're ever out this way during a hunting season stop in and we make a day or two of it.
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Let me offer my opinion since it seems as though thats where these threads always lean .. which leads to an argument but nevertheless, I as all the rest have an opinion.
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<br>I am not an ultra long range hunter. I am however a 1000 yard hunter. I practice and practice in all conditions to achieve a confidence level that any game animal deserves. A respect as you will, that any quarry being hunted deserves. I would not attempt a shot in a 20 mph full value wind an any distance further than I without question know that my kill percentage would be very high. Just as any short range hunter would feel should he happen upon his quarry at 100 yards.
<br>I also have enough confidence in myself and my abilities to HUNT and stalk with as much success and steathlyness ( if thats a word) as anyone on the north american continent. I choose however to apply my abilities and achieved skill level to pursue my quarry and harvest my quarry from 1 yard to 1000 yards. If the opportunity lies at 850 yards I will take it. If the opportunity lies at 8 yards I will take it.
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<br>I cannot see where "love" enters into this. I do not love my quarry I pursue! I do not "love" my equipment.
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<br>If any one here loves the deer or loves the Elk. Maybe the sierra club is where you need to be. Maybe green peace or the likes. You diet should also consist of a heavy amount of granola and don't forget to hug your tree today. Maybe you have some explainig to do to your wife on how you "love" her more than the deer....
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<br>I respect the land and the animals who live on it. I hunt the way I do without being critical and derogatory towards other methods/styles of hunting.
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<br>The people here who are against the LRH's are very eager to say what is right or what is wrong in the LRH style. I feel you have no right ... no right whatsoever to judge anyone who hunts as a LRH without first walking in his shoes on a hunt. You may think you understand or you may be able to ( what you think ) is logically guess at what may happen in any given circumstance but you, in all reality do not know....
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<br>If in fact one of the non believers would actually go along with a LRH and expierience the hunt, than you would have earned the right to be critical and objective about how you percieved the event. Than I would give your criticism some weight.
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<br>This is a forum designed to share information and knowledge. Not to bash or denounce hunting styles....
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<br>OK I am done with my rant... fire away...... I'm ready

Dave,
<br>You have me confused with someone else. I am not a high power shooter. Big game, varmints and benchrest are my games.
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Carbon,
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<br>If it is "real" windy I will "never" shoot at any animal at any distance that I am not confident of hitting - where I want to hit it.
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<br>If there is a 20MPH crosswind (as an example) I will then limit the distance I shoot.
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<br>Most of the time the wind dies down a lot just before it gets dark. Any shot that I would have beyond 480 yards is east of my location. Most of the time (in the winter) we have a west wind (comming out of the west, going east). If I had a 5MPH west wind, located and measured the distance on a deer (broadside) eating in the field, got set-up on it and I wasn't shaking to bad that day I would feel good enough to take that shot.
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<br>I have had deer out in the field I watch over at 560 yards in past years and I did "not" shoot because the conditions were not what I "needed" to make a clean kill on that deer.
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<br>Hopefully, one of these years I will have a deer at the 650 yard mark (my personal limit - as of now) and the conditions will be such that I feel confident in making a clean kill on that deer. That has yet to happen.
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<br>I hope this answers your question. This is what "I" do and not to be confused with what "others" do.
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<br>Have a good one,
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<br>Don

Wyo.. Well yes I do love the game I hunt...nothing kinky mind you just a lot of admiration and appreciation. In fact I have enough respect for these animals to say that I do have a right to comment on the ethics of various hunting methods used to harvest them. If that makes me a Sierra Club member (whatever this organization is) so be it.
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<br>As far as the thousand yard thing lets both shoot at 100 deer size targets. I'll shoot at 300 yards and the long range lads can go at 1000. I am not the worlds best but I would bet the house that no one alive could beat me at this challenge. I could ensure even in a wind that I wouldn't gut shoot one of those 100 shots given a prone position. If someone could do the same in a variety of temperature/wind conditions at 1000 yards I'll say maybe he has a claim to be an ethical 1000 yarder. I'd need to see it though, every body is Carlos Hathcock on the internet.
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<br>I did enjoy Dave's windage method. It helped me figure out a way to dope the wind on my own .308 Steyr Scout without bringing a windage table along. I have been playing with shooting at 8" balloons out to 480 yards and it can get pretty tricky in a wind.
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Carbonman
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<br>Sorry.
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<br> Got my threads a bit confused there. I am/was following a thread about shooting and there was a post from a fella asking about wind (as I recall) and he was a Master High power shooter, guess I melded you and him together on the wind issue.
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<br> One of the fellas I met at a range a few times and shot with was big into Bench Rest and also hunting, Rod Morton, ever heard of him? Nice fella, ex-Marine (if there is such a thing) good shooter. I also bother Wally and Bobby Hart a good bit, Bobby wants me to stop by and shoot benchrest but it's just not in me right now.
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<br>Again, sorry for the confusion.
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<br>/r
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Taku,
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<br>This bet has been offered before. You tell me the dia. circle the average deer kill zone is and lets just shoot at that. No need for a whole deer. But lets factor in somthing else. Is every deer you shoot at 300 yards moving or still? If you have ever shot a moving deer at 300 your target must then be moving as well. All the animals the LRH shoot are still........
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<br>I feel pretty confident about this .. I shot over 50 rounds at PD's at over 1200 yards an never missed by more than a few inches.......

Ric,are you sure you wanna take a bet like that?.I know I can put ten in the black at 1000 yard's.Do it in front of some people,they call it luck.....We both know that's not the case.Don't we......

I know at 1K I am pretty much shooting 15" groups in wind.. so Iam pretty confident ..... but then my birthday is on the 13.. and I was born on a fri. ( true story )
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<br>All I ask is that it be fair.... if they wanna call it luck well then.. shooting 1000 rounds a year increases my lucky ness!!! ;-)
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<br>Don't forget Boyd we gotta try again on the antelope tags.!!!! Just don't bring the pink gun !!!! ;-)
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You forgot the purple pok-a-dot's....