In time the Pa Big Woods Deer herd will be back better than ever. Some of us will not be here to see it. It should be something special for those who do.
i disagree with you on that. at least in the north central counties. reason being is the rapidly growing elk herd. im 78 years old and have been hunting this area since i was 12. i wont disagree that deer numbers were to high even into the early 70s. i also agree the antler restrictions have had a positive affect on buck quality. about 30 years ago there was a large meeting held in jan. at the now defunct mountain country sportsmans clubhouse near the sinnemahoning state park. area hunters were complaining even then about deer numbers. a very large group of pa game commission personal were at that meeting. we were told that due to the change in the size of the trees in the area it could no longer support a large deer herd. 1 deer for 2 sq. miles was the target. when questioned about seeding a crop on the miles of power and gas pipelines they said it was not practicle. today in much of that area including where i sit right now there are more than 1 elk per 2 sq. miles. of coarse competing for the same food as the deer. they have recently been spending large sums on food plots in some isolated areas in an attempt to spread out the elk herd. no doubt the deer also benefit from those plots. but the fact remains they were built for the benefit of the elk not the deer. anyone visiting this area is aware of the millions of tax dollars spent on elk viewing areas etc. the elk herd is flourishing and the deer numbers are dwindeling. now the game commission claims to have cut back on doe licences. but what they are not saying is that the dcnr is also issueing doe licences as they see fit in certain areas. who is in control of deer managment? there appears little doubt the game commission and the state see the elk herd as a cash cow for the future. a roll once relagated to a sizable deer herd.
The DCNR licenses you refer to are part of the DMAP program. This is addressed around 3.10 in the video. 22,000 DMAP licenses were issued in 2012 which resulted in approximately 4,000 Deer taken across the entire State. In the overall Deer management picture that would be an insignificant number.
The PA elk herd has increased in numbers and in territory, but that is why PA has had an elk season for several years: To keep a lid on how big that elk herd will become.
No way elk hunting is ever going to "replace" our deer hunting in popularity or emphasis? We're still killing upwards of 300,000 deer per year, vs a handful of elk.
If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.
the elk shot during the elk season are very few compared to the total number. it is not an attempt to control the herd at this point. you might be led to believe thats the case. but if you live here as i do for at least 1/3 of the year you will see it differently. as for deer harvest numbers, whoes numbers are they?
it differently. as for deer harvest numbers, whoes numbers are they?
The GC is often criticized for inflating the Deer kill. Not sure if that is true or not. I can tell you that when my cousin was in the fur business he bought all the Deer hides he could in Armstrong Co. At that time the GC would publish an Armstrong Co Deer kill of a certain number, which I can't exactly remember. I can tell you that he would himself buy more than twice that many Deer hides in Armstrong Co. And he wasn't the only one buying. Which meant two things; Most hunters didn't report their kills and the GC estimate was more than conservative.
Some people won't believe it's raining until they go outdoors and get wet.
Still amazes me that so many refuse to believe estimated kill numbers? It's a fairly easy system to sort out and it's been explained for years, yet some still bluster about the estimates being "made up" from thin air. And yes, I think they are fairly conservative, compared to actual kill numbers.
PGC personnel check data at several levels to obtain a basis for reported kills vs actual kills. They stop at processors to record the data from deer brought in. WCOs record the data obatined via field checked deer kills.
So they have the data from actual, observed deer kills. Then they analyze the data to see how many of those hunters that were checked, actually reported their kills as required.
If X number of known deer kills aren't reported via the cards/online/phone reports, then they eventually arrive at the percentage of compliance. It's been below 40% for years, which is shameful.
But it's one of those things for which there is no easy solution. Anyone prosecuted for failure to report, can just claim they "sent it in, but it must've got lost in the mail" sort of crap. What District Judge is gonna convict someone on that charge, with that alibi?
But in the final analysis all that matters is the percentage of compliance, in order to estimate the kill numbers. That's an over simplified description of how it's done, but covers the heart of the system.
If three or more people think you're a dimwit, chances are at least one of them is right.
I moved back to Pa after a 15 year hiatus to AK. First thing I noticed upon moving back was there were more bucks and they were of higher quality than I remembered. 2nd was the intensity of the rut. Bucks actually have to chase does now.
The only negative that I would like to see changed is the doe numbers in some areas. I hunted mostly in the big woods last firearms season, and the deer numbers were beyond low in some areas. I think certain WMU's need their antlerless numbers cut back.
Another change I like is the Oct muzzleoader season. Though Im not in favor of the modern ML, I do enjoy taking my flintlock out in the autumn woods. Great experience.
Problem is the archers get a big time first go at the good Bucks. Give the same to the Flinltlock hunters before the regular CF season and more than a few nice Bucks are gone by the time rifle season comes around and they are the majority.
Nothing wrong with the Flintlock, modern in-line or Archery-and now crossbows for all-hunters. Thing is Pa has a lot of CF rifle hunters. Many more than the other groups and they keep getting the short end of the stick. Problem is Pa just has a lot of hunters; to try and keep them all happy takes a huge effort by the GC.
Problem is the archers get a big time first go at the good Bucks. Give the same to the Flinltlock hunters before the regular CF season and more than a few nice Bucks are gone by the time rifle season comes around and they are the majority.
Nothing wrong with the Flintlock, modern in-line or Archery-and now crossbows for all-hunters. Thing is Pa has a lot of CF rifle hunters. Many more than the other groups and they keep getting the short end of the stick. Problem is Pa just has a lot of hunters; to try and keep them all happy takes a huge effort by the GC.
I alway felt like this was a giant cop out by old school Pa hunters. Every hunter in Pa has the same opportunity. If you want to hunt the rut, buy a bow or a crossbow. I did. If they come out with a black powder buck hunt before the rifle hunt, I am going to go buy a black powder rifle. If they come out with an early spear season, I'll go buy a spear. Just sick and tired of whinny "gun" hunters complaining about everybody else's advantages. I am a hunter, doesn't matter the weapon I choose or am allowed to hunt with.
Times change.
Adapt, overcome, move on or stay home and stay out of my way.
The point is the more seasons they continue to open before rifle season just waters gun season down all the more. The first day of rifle used to beat the hell out of Christmas.
The DCNR licenses you refer to are part of the DMAP program. This is addressed around 3.10 in the video. 22,000 DMAP licenses were issued in 2012 which resulted in approximately 4,000 Deer taken across the entire State. In the overall Deer management picture that would be an insignificant number.
Insignificant unless perhaps your camp is in western Sullivan county surrounded by State forest land and DMAP tags. Then you feel the pinch.
Some people won't believe it's raining until they go outdoors and get wet.
Still amazes me that so many refuse to believe estimated kill numbers? It's a fairly easy system to sort out and it's been explained for years, yet some still bluster about the estimates being "made up" from thin air. And yes, I think they are fairly conservative, compared to actual kill numbers.
I have always taken the PGC kill numbers at face value. With that said, a few years ago some wildlife biologist-type made a pretty convincing statistical argument that the reported kill numbers were not realistic. I forget his name, but his argument was based purely on statistics and his general knowledge regarding animal populations.
According to his theory, the PGC reported annual kills did not match up with the PGC reported size of the deer herd. According to his calculations, the size of the herd would not be able to sustain the level of annual kills without collapsing, from a purely statistical standpoint.
I will admit that his argument raised some doubt in my mind. I'm not sure whether it was ever rebutted or disproven or what ever happened to the guy thereafter.
I did some Internet searching and came up with more information concerning my last post. Attached is a link to a study led by John Eveland (former Penn State biologist) that criticizes the PGC's deer management plan.
I believe that Mr. Eveland's conclusions were later challenged by a study commissioned by the PA legislature to audit the PGC's deer management plan. When scientists, activists, hunters, politicians and other vested interests disagree, who is one supposed to believe? Perhaps the truth lies somewhere in the middle, as is often the case.
Here is a link to info that counters the "official" PGC line:
ARs work awesome. You have to see it through for many years to even have a clue of how great it works.
x1
MARS have been in place in Leelanau Co in NW lower MI for 10 years now. The benefits to the deer and deer hunting have been huge. We have been here 15 years and have seen the differences "before and after" first hand. Don't let anyone BS you.
Happily, another 12 counties in NW Lower will have MARs (3 pts side) instituted this fall for a 5 year trial period. That vote passed with 70% of hunters and landowners voting for MARs. That plurality is unbelievably high for any kind of vote like this regarding any topic re deer hunting.
NB
Sure wish PA gave the residents some say in what were paying for.
The game commission issues an annual statement that anyone who wishes to can examine the kill report cards. Count 'em and figure it out yourself.
My other beef with the restrictions is that there is virtually no way to remove inferior genetics. In the mid 80's, I shot 3 bucks in 4 years, every one had a scrubby spike for one antler and the other side was busted. All came from within 400 yds of the same point. So I know those genes were passed on from year to year. Unless you have a kid handy, there is no way to shoot those deer now because they are not legal.
The game commission issues an annual statement that anyone who wishes to can examine the kill report cards. Count 'em and figure it out yourself.
My other beef with the restrictions is that there is virtually no way to remove inferior genetics. In the mid 80's, I shot 3 bucks in 4 years, every one had a scrubby spike for one antler and the other side was busted. All came from within 400 yds of the same point. So I know those genes were passed on from year to year. Unless you have a kid handy, there is no way to shoot those deer now because they are not legal.
Dale
I am no biologist, but in a perfect world, wouldn't the deer population itself remove the inferior genetics over time? With the advent of AR, better and older bucks are surviving past a year or so. These big boys ought to be preventing the scrubby bucks from attending to the does in their area.
I guess a little help from us hunters wouldn't hurt, though.
The trouble with antler restriction around where I hunt 3C (Northern Lackawanna/ Susquehanna) is a lot of people shoot whatever they want and butcher it themselves. So the bucks aren't getting to grow older anyway.
The trouble with antler restriction around where I hunt 3C (Northern Lackawanna/ Susquehanna) is a lot of people shoot whatever they want and butcher it themselves. So the bucks aren't getting to grow older anyway.
That would be people problem and not trouble with AR. Stop the people problem and the trouble goes away.
A little much to expect AR to improve the quality of Pa Deer and Deer management and also arrest the illegals. Drunks are going to drive until the Police make it very inconvenient/unpleasant to do so.
I didn't mean that is was an antler restriction problem, but another reason why bucks aren't growing older. Its hard to stop something that's been going on for decades. But overall the bucks are improving.
