Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Elk Hunting Berger bullets for elk?

No schit. Good job, nice animal.

I shot this Elk w/155gr Berger...

270 yards.

I want more "failures" just like this

As I mentioned, I never shot them, and still would like to!

Seems like nothing else flies like them. And they do what they are designed to do.
Basic fragmenter, for lack of a better term.

Doing some research, came across a rather interesting picture. Shows the Berger standing out way ahead of the rest. Or as some could say, way behind?



Quickest kill I ever seen was a rather large bull shot head-on through the brisket with a 140grain NBT 7mmrm at about 150 yards. The bull went down like a dead duck splashing the decoys. I found the ball sort of like the NBT pictured above, but the one I found lost a little more weight. I found two little tears in tbe diaphragm membrane.

I consider SSTs maybe slightly more aggressive then NBTs.
Years ago, I did like the Gamekings, and keep asking myself why I ever went away?

This year, hope to see what the AccuBond hype about.
Following year, who knows? Win a small lotto? Berger!
If not, I was always happy with Gamekings.

Sad thing is, while we pluck frog-hairs, we kind of have to shoot what is avalible!

I've seen a few comments about the cost of Berger bullets.

If you consider that Nosler Accubonds are sold 50 a box and extrapolate the costs, Bergers are actually cheaper......

Thanks and 7mm 180gr VLD.

That depends on the criteria you use to define "bullet failure."

Is is what the bullet looks like after you recover it from a dead animal, or what the animal does after it's shot?

No personal experience with the Berger bullets but I don�t find any reason to try them, either, based on both Berger�s own claims as well as reports of those that have used them.

Mule Deer states the following:




Here are my thoughts on the matter.

1. Extreme accuracy. While I haven�t hunted as much as many on this forum, I�ve been hunting Colorado�s elk since 1982, missing only one or two years. Don�t know how many elk I�ve taken in total but since the year 2000 I�ve taken 10. �Extreme accuracy� has never been required but my longest shot was last year at 400 yards +/- a yard or so (and resulted in a downed elk, 300WM and 180g Barnes MRX). If my rifles are doing MOA (~1� at 100 yards), I�m good with that. I practice regularly out to 600 yards using steel plates and clay pigeons as targets. In 2010 I took a .300WM and a .30-06 to the range for a final check-out before going elk hunting. With a total of 5 shots fired I hit a clay pigeon with both rifles. I don�t recall what bullet I was using in the .300 but it was either a North Fork SS or Barnes MRX. I do remember the bullet in the .30-06 � a Nosler 150g AccuBond. A few days that rifle and bullet combo dropped a cow so fast she was on the ground before I recovered from the recoil, range a lasered 262 yards. The next day my son-in-law dropped one with a 180g Winchester Powerpoint using his .300WM, range a lasered 363 yards. Same results, on the ground instantly. Extreme accuracy is a bonus but not a reason for me to choose a bullet when other bullets are way more than accurate enough for my needs.

2. Very high ballistic coefficient. Yawn. With a laser range finder, adjusting for drop is no big deal. Wind is the bigger factor and a very high ballistic coefficient will help there, especially at very long ranges. The difference at 600 yards between a .30 caliber Barnes 165g TTSX (BC .442) and a Berger 168g VLD (BC .492) (2900fps, 7000ft altitude, 50 degrees, 250 yard zero, 10mph crosswind) calculates to be about 2.5� vertical and 3� horizontal.

3. Berger claims 2-3� of penetration before the VLDs start to shed �40-85� of their weight as shrapnel, resulting in �a massive wound cavity within the vital area (internal organs) that will be 13� to 15� long�. This more than any other is the reason I won�t use them. One made it all of 40 yards, another made it about 25 yards and all the others have gone down either where they stood or within a few steps. More than once I�ve joked that the only way they would go down faster is if they dropped before the shot, the point being that terminal performance isn�t exactly lacking in the bullets I use.

Almost any bullet will work when things go according to plan. I figure most of the elk I�ve taken would have succumbed quickly to my .22-250 with a varmint bullet given the same placement, which is usually behind the front leg. What concerns me is what happens when things DON�T go as planned. A few year back I took an easy �can�t miss� behind-the-leg quartering away shot at a standing mulie buck. The buck stepped forward and turned just as the trigger broke and placement ended up being in the lower right ham. The 140g North Fork I was using held together and was recovered from up against the sternum. The buck was on the ground before I recovered from the recoil. So what if the buck had been an elk (I had a bull tag in my pocket) and I had been using a Berger bullet? Would the bull have gone down with a �13-15� of penetration or would it have been like the bull I saw running away from a kid that shot it in the right rear quarter with a .243, never to be recovered? With the bullets I use I don�t worry about penetration or adequate wound cavities. Well, that isn�t exactly true � I do worry about penetration as in over-penetration. My hunting buddies and I have taken elk, deer and antelope with Barnes TTSX and MRX and we�ve yet to recover one.

Everyone has to make their own decisions as to what bullets to use, based on whatever criteria is important to them. For me, Berger VLDs and most cup-and-core bullets, simply don�t provide what I�m looking for - high weight retention with reliable but controlled and limited expansion, deep penetration and good accuracy, with a high BC is a plus but not a requirement. The bullets I use most are North Fork SS and FP; Barnes TTSX and MRX; and Nosler AccuBond. So far they have all worked with no complaints on my part.

Smokepole,

Exactly.

In recent decades lot of hunters have been conditioned in to equate high weight retention with "killing power." I suspect this trend started with Bob Hagel's book in the 1970's, where he emphasized weight retention so much. As a result some hunters started demanding "premium" bullets even for shooting whitetails, and manufacturers started making expanding bullets that retained more and more weight.

Another result is that nowadays there's often a knee-jerk reaction from some hunters about bullets that fragment. Have even heard hunters say a Nosler Partition "failed" because the front end flew apart, just like John Nosler designed it to.

While it's true bullets that don't penetrate the vitals don't kill worth a schidt, it's not true that 100% weight retention kills quicker. In reality fragmentation increases killing power by making a bigger hole in the vitals. That sounds simplistic, but just because something is simple doesn't mean it's wrong.

Berger bullets penetrate into the vitals before they fragment, which also would seem to be a simple concept to grasp. But a lot of hunters apparently can't get their mind around it, because they've been brainwashed by high weight retention for several decades now. As a result there's always at least one guy on every Berger bullet thread who whines and moans when he's never even seen one in action.

Dats a nice elk!


Big Loopy curls in those antlers!

Sheesh you guys, that's not an elk. Nice mule deer though.

Smokepole is right, that can't be no darned Elk......there aint one of them there leather seat things on em......

It's a zebra. It has stripes. Sheesh.

Whatever it is, it's just a damn spike.

I read a lot as a kid. but quickly found out that a lot of what was written didn't pan out in real life.

I quickly learned to just do the research myself.

And yes, fragments kill quicker, like a grenade vs a FMJ bullet to your torso.

Its the bullets that I recovered over the years, especially those while doing taxidermy full time that made me rethink life. Meant that I'd rather have the hole all the way through from any angle, and some damage, than risking a shot that won't allow penetration.

I can track as needed after the fact.

Its just my take on things. But when I do run Berger bullets, I run the target ones not the hunting ones, and I refuse to take angled shots.

As to expansion, i've got some GREAT looking berger target 185s from my 308 out to about 800 yards shooting at both targets and javelina/hogs. They perform just like I want, expand, fragment some, but basically retain about 3/4 or more of their weight to penetrate.

I"ve still got 7mm /180s but have failed to have a shot on game while having them in my gun so far.

Of course to answer the OP... I'd have no qualms about shooting an elk with a 243 win and a 100 grain corelokt or such. It just means my distances and shot angles have to be watched and have to be ready to say no.

A friend who runs Butch's Reloading just got back from a NM Pronghorn hunt. He stresses NOT to use the target version on game. He shot a doe 3 times and the Hybrid Target bullet penciled through.

I've never used Bergers on big game. And before I started guiding elk, deer, and sheep hunters I probably would have scoffed at the thought of shooting an elk with a Berger. I always used partitions myself. Been shooting 200 NPs out of a .300 win mag for a while now for deer and elk.

But the more I guide (usually 3-4 bull elk per year and a couple deer or sheep) the less I think it matters. Most of my clients aren't the typical campfire member/rifle loony that obsesses about this stuff year round. They buy a rifle some ammo and go hunting. Some of them have a bunch of money and hunt a bunch. And you know what they just kill stuff, IF it's hit marginally well or better.

I saw a couple of these guys who buy rifles and just go hunting.. They were sleeping in the back of the suburban .. We stopped to see if they were in trouble or needed help, they replied, naw, we hit a big mulie and it got off in the brush, the guide's up there looking now..!!

I use em plenty, in fact I"m down to my last ones so need to start looking. I"ve shot probably 250 of them in the last 2 years, including probably 50 animals or so.

Mine are slow since its 308 Win on top of it, running 185s. They have never had an issue. Always caliber in, and maybe thumb size or dime size or a hair smaller exit.

Thats what I personally look for in a bullet. And they are much more consistent with expansion/damage than sierra game kings ever have been.

I am stubborn and refuse to run the hunting version simply because they are more destructive.

I don't doubt he had penciling, but I've seen that with every bullet I've ever shot, at times, except barnes and otehrs have had the same results with barnes IE have seen penciling where I have not.

IMHO it doesn't take much to kill an animal with proper shot placement( force most folks to draw vitals and skeletal onto an outline of a deer and you'd be amazed what you see...). It does take more if you are after bang flop or no trailing.

Yes!

Back in the day, way back. When I first started hunting, think early 70s.
Some of the old-timers in camp used ball-ammo that they ground the tip off of.
Ol Coggers! Danged if they didn't get them to work!

Minnesota deer camp, not a lot of distance to cover with heavy brush.
Not every shot was efective, and not every hit either.

Excitement was a factor. Bad shot placment wasn't the norm, but happened.
We always processes our own game, and it was never pleasant trying to find something to eat from around a bullet hole!

I would hate to see what is left after a bad hit from a Berger bullet?
Fragmenters were/are discouraged for that reason.

I happen to be a real fan of aggressive expanision!
Before I started hunting, the term controlled expansion was already in use.
John Nolser was all about this idea, his Partition bullet is a benchmark of craftsmanship.

Is there an art involved with the effects, the 'whoop' we put on our game?

I call eating part of the sport! Spoilage (bad shot placement, shrapnel) is not what I am looking for.
Dead-Elk-Walking is a no-no as well.

Some like elk to leak from both sides.

My rating?

SSTs, too aggressive. Not a fragmenter, but sheds.

NBTs , fantastic, not a lot of tracking!

Silver Tips, (factory loads) agressive, maybe on par with NBTs. I have not see one recovered.

GameKings, another form of art!

Partitions, fantastic for those that use them. I like a little more 'whoop' .

Remington Core-locks, seen failures to expand.

Good friend of mine passed away, lived just down the road from Barns, he knew the family. He gave me a hard time for not using Barns. I know they have some excellent performers.

I would use a Berger, as mentioned.
It sure is easier finding load data for other choices. I would not be a fan of buying their manual to give them a try. Sure it's possible to figure out a load. Sure is nice to have a ballpark to start.

This is a typical example of NBTs, note the lungs damage from the nose:



Just my $0.02 cents worth, it is good we have a lot of manufacturers competing for loyalty. There are a lot of good choices.