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Hi Guys,
I am a new member of this Forum. I have read many different forums for years. I decided to join this one because it seems to have the most well rounded and knowledgeable members. I have many interest/topics to add my .02 too and to learn from you guys about these things.
Right now, I will just pick one thing I am working on right now. The 460 Rowland.
It seems to me that the 460 Rowland and it's related firearms have a place in the woods. I live in the southeast where there are no "big" bears, but we do have black bear, and wild hogs. On my farm we have had an invasion of the Eurasia hogs. They can get up to 300-350 lbs and are very aggressive. My two sons and I are always packing when working on the farm and surrounding woods. We generally pack powerful but compact handguns. Ones that we can climb in and out of a four wheeler,tractor or truck easily, do chores and can wear all day without discomfort. One son carries his 686+ with 170 gr Speer Gold dot flat points. The other son caries a Colt Delta Elite 10mm with 180gr or 200gr Hard cast bullets. Up until a few months ago, I carried a Colt Gold cup with 230gr XTP's. One day I was surprised by a Sow pig with her piglets. I surprised her too. After one quick bluff, she charged me. I was able to get three shots off before she got to me. I hit her in the head twice and one near miss went into her shoulder. She was running on adrenaline and protecting her piglets, so she was tough to put down. I had to jump out of the way of her charge when she went by me. She stopped to turn back when she went down. I then went over to her and put a round in her brain. Those XTP's out of the 45 ACP mangled her head but penetration was lacking. I had been studying the 460 Rowland for awhile so I decided to try it out. This is what I have come up with so far.
The Clark Custom 460 Rowland kit was a true "Drop in" for my gun. Barrel slide fit was perfect with full lug engagement.
The two "CHAMBER" compensator works like it is suppose to. It takes about 6-7 minutes to switch back and forth between the 45 ACP and 460 Rowland. The "sweet spot" for this gun seems to be roughly 225-230gr hard cast bullets. I keep them down to not more than 1250 fps. The 460 Rowland can push those bullets much faster, but I keep them at that velocity range to keep pressures below 34-35k psi. So far the best powder I have used is Longshot. Good accuracy and good performance with the comp barrel. I am not interested in lighter bullets but I am interested in going up to 255-260gr bullets. The heavier bullets inter a world of new problems- that's where you guys can be of help.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Gibby,
Welcome.
There's a bunch of info on the rowland over at glocktalk in the G21 or 45acp sub forum or whatever they call it, might find something there though I think most of the platforms are Glock. Got a G21 45 super myself, tried beartooth bullets 265 WFNGC but think due to slide velocity... feeding was less than 100%, your comp may tame that though. I was running them around 1,150 fps. there are some folks using the 45 super here and your load sounds like it's in 45 super territory.
Jerry
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Joe at realguns did some work with a speer 260gr jsp - might look at his load data. Otherwise, beartooth is the only manufacturer making anything for the rowland.
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Joe at realguns did some work with a speer 260gr jsp - might look at his load data. Otherwise, beartooth is the only manufacturer making anything for the rowland. Did Georgia Arms quit?
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Campfire Outfitter
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jerry- do you think the feeding problems was due to slide velocity or bullet geometry? I have heard that Glock 460 owners were putting in two magazine springs to help on feed issues. The Gold Cup I have is pretty forgiving when using Colt 7 round (with dimple) magazines. I take great pains to eliminate bullet setback on this load at these pressures. Just like I do with the 10mm. The Beartooth bullet keeps getting praise elsewhere. I think I will try them.
dla- the 260gr Speer 260gr jsp might be a viable choice. Have you heard any complaints of the soft nose on that bullet causing any problems on the ramp in feeding in automatics. It does look like the only "tough jacketed" bullet with a .451 instead of .452 dia . Here again I fear bullet setback. Also is it constructed as tough as the Xtp 240gr "magnum" bullet? I do not use it because the XTP is a .452 dia jacketed bullet.
webster- I have had problems with Georgia Arms ammo before. I will not use them anymore
I at least have two heavies to experiment with here.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Gibby,
I think it is slide velocity, as I have had this problem with other bullets too. I am currently running two Glock mag. springs and it has pretty much taken care of the problem with 230 grain bullets doing around 1,150 fps. I have also tried one and two extra power mag springs. When running two magazine springs it cuts magazine capacity down to ten rounds and the last couple are a bear to get in. I wanted to try Speers deep curl/gold dot 250/260? grain (that I have for a 45 Colt), but it is .452 and will not chamber ( they actually mike .4525"). When I ordered BTB's 265 WFNGC I had to call and specify .451 as the drop down menu did not have a .451 (at least at the time), he thought .452 might work, but I did not want to chance it. It was quite accurate in my gun at 15 & 25 yards... 1 1/2" at 15 yards.
Jerry
Si vis pacem, para bellum
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Glad to see interest in the Rowland. I never bought the Clark Kit(even though he's only 15 miles away) but did get the Carbine Conversion Unit. Planned to hog kill with it but the hogs moved out before I get to hunt them.
The Carbine unit was heavy but was a good truck gun. With 11 round mags in it,I felt well armed.
Clark wouldn't say what "problems" there were but stopped carrying the Georgia ammo and the carbine units.
Thought about having Ruger fit another 45ACP cylinder to my Blackhawk convertable, then have Clark rechamber it to 460 Rowland. Still might do it.
Last edited by websterparish47; 09/09/13.
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Campfire Outfitter
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Yea, a couple of things here.
I have not had any trouble with hard cast @ .452. I use a Lee factory crimp die. That carbide ring does a good job of "squeezing" the loaded case down. But the longer bullets get into the internal taper a little bit more and you can feel it. One thing I found with the Lee factory crimp die is follow the directions to the letter. 1/2 turn past contact is all you should crimp. Past that you start swelling the case and loosing bullet grip. Does not like to squeeze .452 jacketed though.
I know I am just loading in the "Super" range. I have tried loading the 45 Super. Wow, the heavy springs you have to use is too much I think for the 1911. The comp system really does work in slowing down the slide. I use the same "tricks" of the super rig, then use a 20# spring. Using a square bottom firing pin stop, and a 25# mainspring. I do use Wilson Combat buffers and change them often. All this seems to delay the slide rear movement enough. Ejected cases only go 4-5 feet. Wilson Combat has lots of experience with the 460 Rowland, and if you look at their loaded ammo you can see they do not load to max. If I want more, I just go to my model 57 or 629. But there is no way I can shoot my 57 or 629 as fast as the comped 460 Rowland on follow up shots. Even the 10mm has a longer recovery time (without comp) than the 460. That is why I am thinking to get a comp system for my 10mm. Glock has a stock gun (20C) already set up from the factory. That last 100-200fps seem to beat the gun up to much for my taste.
A buddy of mine has a Blackhawk with a 460 cylinder. He has the same problem with heavy bullets on heavy loads (for a different reason). With strong loads with heavy bullets, by the time he gets to the 5th or 6th chamber his bullets have creaped out from the recoil of the first few. So he just uses the 45 colt cylinder with standard roll crimped 45 Colt ammo. Webster, I think you have the best there is for your Blackhawk right now using 45 Colt loads. It will do anything the 460 would do but better out of a revolver. I am just thinking out loud.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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I just ordered a box of Georgia Arms 230gr JHP's from Renee at Clark's yesterday, and they were in stock. I think the problem they had was keeping any in stock. Buffalo Bore, Double Tap, and Core-Bon all load for the Rowland, maybe others. The last box of Buffalo Bore 255gr Hard Cast I shot produced a lot more smoke than the JHP's I've shot. I may try the 20# recoil spring from the kit later, as the 24# is a bear to cycle by hand.
The Clark barrel is accurate, I've had no problems using it in a Springfield Mil Spec. I think once I have it sighted in to my liking it will be a great hog gun. Use the semi-auto for fast follow-up shots, though, as the barrel with comp is very loud, will chase all the pigs into the next area code after one shot! Actually, the last time I was shooting a big swamp rabbit came out to eat some corn I dropped, was about 10 feet from me, and I was shooting right over his head. Didn't seem to bother him. Even if he was already deaf, should have been able to feel the muzzle blast. I wonder if he figured that when I'm shooting like that, he can eat without keeping an eye out for bobcats?
I haven't reloaded for the Rowland yet, can't find suitable powders in my area.
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There is no "free lunch". Mike you are correct- it is LOUD! On my 50th birthday, my kids convinced my wife to get me a 500 S&W. 50 cal for turning 50. Oh well, it was cool. Back then the 500 was just on the shelf, but they got it for $830.00 new. I had no use for it, it was just cool to shoot. Now that gun with 8 3/8" comped barrel will damage your eardrums. Its running at 50k psi. If it wasn't a present from my family, I would sell it. I hope they don't read this Forum.
My sights are well within range for the loads I am shooting. I do not know if that would be true if I loaded hotter. Just have not tried it.
I do not have to go to the indoor ranges to shoot, but I think it might make some people mad if I did. The 10mm Colt effects the chronograph at less than 12ft away-the 460 does not. 15ft is standard anyway.
The 20# spring works good if used with the square bottom firing pin stop and a 25# mainspring installed. It might be too light with hotter loads without the above installed. Don't know for sure. The stock spring rate for the Delta 10mm is 23#. Without the SBFPS and heavier mainspring it ejects cases to the next county. It is all timing I think. That 24# spring that comes with the Clark kit will make you invent some new cuss words trying to install it.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
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Hi Guys,
I am a new member of this Forum. I have read many different forums for years. I decided to join this one because it seems to have the most well rounded and knowledgeable members. I have many interest/topics to add my .02 too and to learn from you guys about these things.
Right now, I will just pick one thing I am working on right now. The 460 Rowland.
It seems to me that the 460 Rowland and it's related firearms have a place in the woods. I live in the southeast where there are no "big" bears, but we do have black bear, and wild hogs. On my farm we have had an invasion of the Eurasia hogs. They can get up to 300-350 lbs and are very aggressive. My two sons and I are always packing when working on the farm and surrounding woods. We generally pack powerful but compact handguns. Ones that we can climb in and out of a four wheeler,tractor or truck easily, do chores and can wear all day without discomfort. One son carries his 686+ with 170 gr Speer Gold dot flat points. The other son caries a Colt Delta Elite 10mm with 180gr or 200gr Hard cast bullets. Up until a few months ago, I carried a Colt Gold cup with 230gr XTP's. One day I was surprised by a Sow pig with her piglets. I surprised her too. After one quick bluff, she charged me. I was able to get three shots off before she got to me. I hit her in the head twice and one near miss went into her shoulder. She was running on adrenaline and protecting her piglets, so she was tough to put down. I had to jump out of the way of her charge when she went by me. She stopped to turn back when she went down. I then went over to her and put a round in her brain. Those XTP's out of the 45 ACP mangled her head but penetration was lacking. I had been studying the 460 Rowland for awhile so I decided to try it out. This is what I have come up with so far.
The Clark Custom 460 Rowland kit was a true "Drop in" for my gun. Barrel slide fit was perfect with full lug engagement.
The two "CHAMBER" compensator works like it is suppose to. It takes about 6-7 minutes to switch back and forth between the 45 ACP and 460 Rowland. The "sweet spot" for this gun seems to be roughly 225-230gr hard cast bullets. I keep them down to not more than 1250 fps. The 460 Rowland can push those bullets much faster, but I keep them at that velocity range to keep pressures below 34-35k psi. So far the best powder I have used is Longshot. Good accuracy and good performance with the comp barrel. I am not interested in lighter bullets but I am interested in going up to 255-260gr bullets. The heavier bullets inter a world of new problems- that's where you guys can be of help. 255 grain hard cast penetrate very well even if they are only loaded to 45 acp +P velocities Check out this link http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/4990015/1
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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My normal practice is NOT to load to max in anything, but especially so with 10mm - and I intended to treat the .460 the same way. Clark recommends that if you chamber a round, either shoot it or discard it - to avoid bullet setback and possible over pressuring. Hopefully, this will be less of a problem with jacketed bullets that lead (even hard-cast). The 24# spring IS a bear, but if it is required to have the pistol function properly, I will deal with it. When I switched to a 22# spring in my G20, that one began to function as it was supposed to.
Between the mosquitoes and the rain (seems strange to be able to say that again!), I haven't been able to actually shoot a pig with the .460 yet, anxious to do so.
Looking at the Springfield Mil Spec with the Clark comped barrel, and knowing how it feels to shoot it, I was thinking the other day - "Dirty Harry my azz!". MUCH better choice for defense/LEOs than a .44 mag revolver, I think.
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Mike- I agree with every thing you just said. with the 10mm and the 460 bullet setback can easily put you where you do not want to be with chamber pressures. The combination of heavy spring rate,desirable bullet profiles (wide me-plate) can cause bullet setback very easily. Another reason not to load max. With the Georgia Arms ammo I had that problem. I have "a system with strict rules" when loading these calibers.
So far all the jacketed bullets designed for the 45 auto I have tested turn inside out shooting water jugs, wet newspaper and very loose dirt. They may work for 2 legged varmints, but the 45 ACP is better for that.
The Springfield frame is one of Clark's top recommendations.
jwp475-Good tread! Testing and practice is always good.
Here again the Beartooth bullet is looking better all the time. Has anyone used the Oregon Trail Laser cast 250gr Lead Flat nose bullet in the 1911? Does it feed well? Does the OAL cover the crimp groove? In the 460 with heavy bullets we have to use "45 colt type" bullets. Some work, some do not. I am just asking because I can get the Lazer Cast easier.
Oh almost forgot. I have settled on my "go to" load for the 10mm years ago. My son carries it a lot on the farm. Loads and unloads the gun a lot without firing. So I made a OAL gauge that fits in a small leather flap on the holster to check the loaded round when finished at the end of the day. I plan on doing this for the 460 also when load development is complete.
Gun Shows are almost as comical as boat ramps in the Spring.
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I was looking at the pic of the Buffalo Bore 255gr 45acp that jwp475 provided a link to and I noticed "the bulge". The bulge is a good thing as it means the slightly under-sized case provides maximum neck tension to prevent bullet setback.
If I were loading 460 Rowland, I would invest in an undersized expander plug. Neck tension is everything - taper crimp is almost meaningless.
Funny, but Dillon goes slightly undersized with their 9mm die for the SDB resulting in a "coke bottle" loaded cartridge. They do it specifically to reduce bullet setback.
There's another option, albeit more expensive - Corbin's HAND CANNELURE TOOL. Not sure what it does to brass life though.
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When I was testing different sizing dies for the 10mm and now the 460, I tested which ones sized the case the most. Steel sizer that keep the taper in the case vs carbide sizer that parallel sized the case. The parallel sizing from the carbide dies leaves the bulge. For the reason you mentioned that is good. So far, my expander plug for the 45 die I am using is working fine. I polished it down to .4955 . Does not squeeze hard cast. Your correct-taper crimp only is good for removing the minimum bell for bullet loading. Does nothing to grip the bullet better. Coke bottle is good. Taste better than Pepsi anyway. Setback- very bad!!!
Last edited by Gibby; 09/11/13. Reason: spelling
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welcome to the new guy  I will second - whether it's a revo, or a autoloader, I have found that turning down the expander plug will help assure a tight bullet fit. Tighter fit prevents bullet setback in autos, and also helps prevent bullet pulling in hard kicking revolvers. The expander plug should be at least .005" smaller than the bullets, and .008" does not hurt anything. Then crimp firmly, whether roll or taper. Yes, the cartridge may wind up a little funny looking, with a "coke bottle shape", but the bullets will be tight, and tight bullet fit is essential, regardless of how hard you crimp.
"...the designer of the .270 Ingwe cartridge!..."
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Reiterate expander plug size. Polishing with 1000-2000grit wet/dry works for me, then touch up with crocus cloth. It take a little time but well worth it. The polishing makes the expanding stage a little smoother anyway,a win-win situation.
It cost's more, but I only use NEW Starline brass for testing and carry loads. My fired brass I use (at reduced loads)to practice, have fun and burn up powder/bullet combinations that I accumulate during testing to reach my final recipe.
The hard cast bullets (.452) seem to stretch the new brass to where it needs to be upon insertion of the bullet. The carbide ring in the Lee Factory Crimp Die seems to clean the case up well without squeezing too much that the cast bullet will not spring back. Since cast bullets do not spring back in my experience. Setting that die just right is the key. 1/2 Turn past case engagement is what Lee recommends. It has worked for me. I have seen some people in forums complain that their Lee die is too tight or too loose. It's a crap shoot now with the high demand from suppliers for quality control. Even good companies like Lee have quality issues. I bought one set of these dies for a "taper crimp" caliber and it had a "roll crimp" insert in it.
One more thing. If shooting these out of a revolver, all this might not work with stock size dies if one has to use different size bullets to match unusual throat sizes of that particular gun for accuracy/leading problems.
Last edited by Gibby; 09/11/13. Reason: spelling
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I have tried loading the 45 Super. Wow, the heavy springs you have to use is too much I think for the 1911. The spring kit for the 45 Super is the stock kit for the Delta Elite, which, is a 28# recoil spring. Evidently Colt didn't think it was too much for the 1911. My Sig 1911 5" 45 Super pushes the 230's to 1285 fps.
By the way, in case you missed it, Jeremiah was a bullfrog.
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I have tried the "SUPER" route. Because of cost too! Without a coil spring out of a F350 front end, I bought a lot of brass too. Cost too much for gas to travel to the next county to pick up my brass. Those springs you have to use without a comp are way too much for the return velocity of the slide/frame for longevity, (more cost) even on a quality gun like the Sig. Been there-done that. If you don't like comps that's fine. Nothing wrong with that. The comps reduce pressures before the slide starts rearward, combined with the other modifications, the timing is better. Better lock up when the pressures are at their highest. We here are still trying to make guns designed by J.B. for 18k pressures work at double that. That's enough torture for my guns (cost). Not counting the GREAT ADVANTAGE for controlling for RAPID FIRE RATE - ACCURATELY- with a comped 460 against Zobie (I hate That word, but sometimes you have to use it)Hogs.
225gr Hard cast @ 1250fps,20# recoil spring, cases ejecting only 4-5'. You can't do that with the SUPER! @1285fps?
Last edited by Gibby; 09/11/13. Reason: spelling
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