Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunter's Campfire Immigrants are people, too

when they are cutting off your head with a machetti remember that crap...

In a not shell Dick is right on. If they can not come to this country legally they do not belong. If we think tax's are high now, just wait until the 13 million illegals is 26 million or more !

We are being invaded by immigrants who see us as a free ride..............That ride should end !!

If we took all the non-violent criminals in our jail systems and put them to work we would not need cheap immigrant labor. Some of the money earned could go back to the prisons to help offset the cost of incarceration. The remainder could be set aside to help the prisoner when he or she is released, hopefully keeping them from re offending.

Our borders are in trouble and we are falling short of finding a solution with "teeth" !!!!!

I believe you and I agreed a couple weeks back that the government is not ever going to do anything about illegal immigration that significantly impacts the profits of its constituent corporations who depend on cheap labor from illegal immigrants.

This Bush plan doesn't change that. Even if it were cast into law, when it started impacting profits it would be ignored, exactly as existing law is being ignored now. So would any of the opinions expressed so far on this thread--including your own, about the National Guard and the fence, etc.--if they were cast into law.

No, I'm not looking for a law. I'm looking for a principled argument.

They're only here to do the raping and robbing lazy Americans won't do! <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

It's just wrong for illegal imigrants to be here. If you woke up tomarrow and Maria was in your kitchen with a border baby on the way and the police wouldn't remove her and she started making demands about which room you needed to clean out for her and that you would need to supply food and medical needs at your expense and her boyfriend and pregnant cousin were coming to stay in your home also and you had better treat them well , because they have civil rights. Oh and by the way, they hate your whiteness and believe that this is their country any way. You had better start to learn spanish now so you can understand the new wave of illegal immigrants that refuses to assymilate into you society, but demands that you learn spanish.
you are fast becomeing a minority to people that don't like you and feel that your that your generosity is owed to them.

The house is full and the burden of what we already have is crushing our state governments resources and is already having to be supplemented by federal government funds just to keep our hospitals open and other services in place.

My mother was an immigrant and passed through the immigration process and my father was the fourth generation of immigrants. It's not that I don't feel compassion for these illegal aliens and their plight; I just refuse to be used by corrupt South American governments that won't provide for there own people and people who refuse to obey the laws of our country.

It's just wrong for illegal imigrants to be here. If you woke up tomarrow and Maria was in your kitchen with a border baby on the way and the police wouldn't remove her and she started making demands about which room you needed to clean out for her and that you would need to supply food and medical needs at your expense and her boyfriend and pregnant cousin were coming to stay in your home also and you had better treat them well , because they have civil rights. Oh and by the way, they hate your whiteness and believe that this is their country any way. You had better start to learn spanish now so you can understand the new wave of illegal immigrants that refuses to assymilate into you society, but demands that you learn spanish.
you are fast becomeing a minority to people that don't like you and feel that your that your generosity is owed to them or that we are too weak minded to protect ourselves from a passive invasion.

The house is full and the burden of what we already have is crushing our state governments resources and is already having to be supplemented by federal government funds just to keep our hospitals open and other services in place.

My mother was an immigrant and passed through the immigration process and my father was the fourth generation of immigrants. It's not that I don't feel compassion for these illegal aliens and their plight; I just refuse to be used by corrupt South American governments that won't provide for there own people and people who refuse to obey the laws of our country.

When our resources are gone and we have an economic collapse who will come to our aid with billion of dollars and other help to bail us out?
We are the UN, and the World Monetary Fund, and , and ,and ....

I've heard people say that, but I haven't seen it based on any principle. Mostly, it boils down to "It's wrong because I don't like it."


...then Maria and her unborn baby would find herself forcibly ejected and given sufficient incentive never to try that again. But that's my house you're talking about, not your country.


Hey, brother...I'm a white conservative fundamentalist Christian male who hangs around with Jews, is friends with Nazis and murderers and child molesters, and holds anarchist political views. I'm already a minority to people who don't like me. It's not so bad.


But I'm thinking that's a good thing. Those resources should have stayed in the hands of individuals who would have complete discretion over whether and how they were used, instead of being usurped by the government. Now, with the help of all the illegal immigrants, we're beginning to see why.


I understand the fury of legal immigrants, and their loved ones, who submit themselves to the hassle and the heartbreak of jumping through all the government's hoops, when they see illegals being embraced. Again, though, that's a personal preference, not a principle.


Hopefully nobody. That would just be borrowing trouble.

But at least after an economic collapse there's going to be plenty of menial work to do, for everyone including Mexicans.

My forbearers were undocumented immigrants also and there was resentment that they came here. They worked hard, built lives, raised families, and were productive. They became citizens and have contributed to the nation.

Of course, they:
1. came here in 1658 from Holland
2. settled in Manhattan,, New York
3. fought against the insurgents lead by George Washington
4. strongly supported King George
5. relocated up the Hudson River and founded a town
6. established a ferry boat company (1 boat, 2 oars)
7. eventually entered politics and one was convicted of tax evasion and jailed.

Does this make me like the other undocumented immigrants?

My guess is it makes you like the rest of us our age who were born to citizens of the USA or on soil of the USA when born to non-citizens, not unlike, of course the millions of children of undocumented immigrants who are also here legally if delivered here, just like you and me! Now their parents who are still here certainly are problematic. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Hey, brother...I'm a white conservative fundamentalist Christian male who hangs around with Jews, is friends with Nazis and murderers and child molesters, and holds anarchist political views. I'm already a minority to people who don't like me. It's not so bad.

[quote]



Barak

A preacher at a revival asked the members of the congregation to feel free to stand up and confess their sins and obtain forgiveness. The first gent stood up and said he had cheated on his taxes. A lot of amens and praise Gods came from the congregation. Another stood and confessed to running around on his wife. More amens and praise Gods followed and several more stood and confessed to various sins.
Then, a farmer man stood up and said "I made love with my sheep, Nellie, last night." The congregation oohed and aahed and a hush fell over the congregation and the preacher stood and solemnly said,
"I don't believe I would have told that."

Have you read two new recent works, "1776" by David McCullough and "The Compleated Autobiography by Benjamin Franklin" by Mark Skousen, Ph.D. The Compleated spelling is, in fact, correct as opposed to Complete. Washington's and Franklin's insights about this country's founding and it's people are great reads full of actual diaries and letters, not only from them, but from others of the time. "1776" should be read first. It gives more meaning to Franklin's letters and diary and what this country is about for all of us. Over time, it has been lost.

Slasher

Look at what is happenning in European schools. This report is about France, similar ones re other countries abound. The immigrants in the story below are islamic <bacon be upon them>IMO that make them a more organized threat to the host society. I do believe that any mass immigration threatens to destroy the host nation. Assimilate legally now or get them out before we reach a cultural critical mass that we will not recover from.


Europe�s Islamic future is now

The Obin report, innocuously entitled �Signs and Manifestations of Religious Affiliation in the Educational Establishments� and headed by the inspector general of French education Jean-Pierre Obin, the study was actually finished last year but remained unpublished until leaked on the Internet a few weeks ago.

It is easy to understand why the French government was unwilling to publish it. For the survey is a devastating indictment and an anxious wake-up call at the same time.

The result of an extensive research and five months of field interviews in numerous schools in 20 French provinces by a distinguished group of educators, the Obin report documents the extensive Islamization of French schools in the vicinity of Moslem ghettoes and the imposition of strict conformity with Islamist dictates through violence and intimidation.

Having by and large completed their takeover of the Moslem ghettoes, often by �targeted violence� against non-Moslems and moderate Moslems alike, the Islamist fanatics are making great progress towards achieving control of the educational system as well.

As usual, girls are the first victims of religious extremism. The �big brothers,� as the Islamists are known in school, enforce a strict Islamic dress code which prohibits make-up, dresses and skirts, forbid any co-educational activities and make going to the movies, the swimming pool or the gym all but impossible for Moslem girls.

The punishment for refusal to conform is often physical violence and beatings. And this, says the report, is a relatively protected environment compared to �what girls experience outside of school.� Such as forced marriages at 14 or 15.

No less disturbing is the picture Obin paints of the spread of the kind of religious obscurantism that one associates with Wahhabi zealots, but would find difficult to envisage in a public school in the heart of Western Europe.

Moslem students often refuse to study Voltaire or read Madame Bovary, acknowledge even the existence of other religions, or sing, dance, draw faces or right angles because they resemble the cross. English, on the other hand, is hated as the �language of imperialism.�

Increasingly, the radical Islamists are able to secure special, often preferential, treatment for Moslem students making a mockery of French secular traditions. In some schools, Moslems already have the right to eat at separate tables, have their own toilets off limits to the infidels, be served only halal (Islam�s kosher) food and practice mass absenteeism during Moslem holidays.

In addition to the routine expression of violent anti-Semitic sentiments, schools have also become a major focus of aggressive proselytism. The report states that it is virtually impossible for non-practicing Moslem kids in school not to conform to the strict Islamist behavior prescriptions. Even non-Moslems are often forced to take part in Ramadan fasting, against the wishes of their parents.

Perhaps most troubling is the study�s finding that this new generation of Moslem children, born and raised in Europe, is growing up already indoctrinated to consider themselves part of a �Moslem nation� separate and opposed to everything Western civilization stands for.

Whether it is their obscurantist worldview, their anti-democratic and violent tendencies or wide-spread admiration for Osama Bin Laden and assorted terrorists, this is a generation that is clearly on a collision course with democratic society.

Faced with this wholesale assault on basic democratic values and secularism, the educational establishment appears powerless and immobilized. It admits that Jewish kids can no longer be schooled without being subject to constant racist and anti-Semitic harassment and cannot protect the freedom of spiritual choice of minor children, but does not know what to do. Instead, it engages in self-censorship and tolerates and appeases violent intolerance.

And this is not just France�s problem. The same phenomenon of large numbers of angry young Moslems who totally reject European civilization is easily observable in virtually every large urban center across the EU.

Moreover, the future is on their side. With fertility rates twice those of the native Europeans and large-scale legal and illegal immigration, Europe�s Moslem population is growing by leaps and bounds. Though only 4 to 5% of the general population, Moslems already make up 25% to 30% of the under 18 cohort in large cities.

On present demographic trajectory, they will become a majority of that cohort in the metropolitan areas where they are concentrated in 30 years or less. If they were to resemble the students described in the Obin Report at all, it would be difficult to imagine Europe remaining secular and democratic for long.

My Wife Is a canadian we had to jump through all the hoops. I had to spend all the time and money for all the trips to imm. At one point I had to hire an attorney and contact a congress person who did nothing for me, wrong party. A senator finally helped, correct party. We did it all according to the LAWS. It took months {6} before she could even comme here. I spent much time visiting her in canada No income during this as I am not a Govt. employee. I also had to sign a contract with our fed. govt. garanteeing she would receive no public asst. for ten years or I would have to pay it back. My problem was I picked the wrong border to fall in love across. If she was from the south there would have been no legal issues and they probably would have payed me. Legal or out|.

OK, this just in... no camo pants at school. To patriotic. Remember that "critical mass" thing I just posted about...


Apr 3, 2006 10:26 pm US/Mountain
Tensions Change Dress Code At Local Middle School

(CBS4) WESTMINSTER, Colo. The immigration debate and demonstrations caused a middle school in Adams County to change their dress code.

Students at Shaw Heights Middle School are no longer allowed to wear anything that's patriotic, including camouflage pants, because they have become a political symbol for a version of patriotism.

"It upsets me that we cannot support our troops, the military," said Kirsten Golgart, an eighth grader who was told she'd be suspended if she didn't change her clothes. "We can't support our country. If we're American, I think we should be proud to be an American."

A letter went home to parents last week that explained for student safety, no clothes were allowed with political messages or flags of any sort.

Myla Shepherd, the principal, said that tensions over the immigration issue were apparent when more than 20 students came to school wearing camouflage jackets and pants, apparently to show what they call their patriotism and American pride.

"We started seeing name calling," Shepherd said. "Safety is my first concern so I'm going to do things to keep us from getting to a point where anybody is hurt or being suspended for fighting."

She said the dress code diffused the tension immediately.

"I don't think that's a solution though because you're punishing 400 students because the action of 100," said Eric Golgart, Kirsten's father.

He gathered signatures against the dress code, but the principal said for safety, freedom of speech can be limited in schools, even as students get involved in the national immigration discussion.

In Longmont, the principal of Skyline High School banned all flags, including the American flag, because of tensions related to immigration reform.

I have to say that I agree with Barak more than I don't on this topic - meaning that I feel pretty ambivalent at best about what opinion to take. Some of you are obviously of the opinion that he has chosen sides. I don't think so. I just think he is trying to make you aware of the other side of the arguement that makes it hard to be so black and white for him.

I'm not sure how "fair" it is to keep people from the opportunity to live in a free country where they have rights and a relatively less corrupt government and law enforcement system. A country with some stability. I can certainly understand why they would want to be here and can't fault them for that.

I'm a little disappointed by some of the stereotypes perpetuated here. Sure, there are some druggies and gangster types who have made their way to the US, but the vast majority are coming to the US on the hopes of the American Dream. You know, the idea that through hard work and perserverance a person can better themselves and the future for their posterity.

I'm sure there were never any turf wars or difficulties between the Irish, German, Italian, or other european immigrants when they all initially arrived in the US. I'm sure they all got along just dandy! I'm sure they all assimilated immediately, dropping their cultures of origin like a bad habit.

And we certainly would never celebrate anything like St. Patrick's day or Octoberfest today in THIS country. No, it's just the Latinos that insist on keeping their culture and holidays.

(Don't tell that to my 4th generation Greek immigrant friend whose great grandfather never did learn English)

In the past there were no immigration limits. Luckily my family got here before people were shutting the door. If you check, it is rare to find a 2nd generation or beyond Latino immigrant who doesn't speak English. The folks who don't are the folks who are first generation. Which makes them not much different than most of the immigrants of the past who initially spoke a different language when they arrived too.

Now I won't go so far as to say that there aren't some problems and that nothing should be done. I just don't have a good answer for what.

I hate the idea of rewarding the folks who all crossed the border illegally by giving them worker status while there are people on waiting lists to gain that status the "right" way. Just doesn't seem fair and it ends up rewarding folks for not following the rules.

That said, I can't fault folks who want to be here and want to get away from corrupt governments or in an attempt to make a better life for themselves. Seems like most of us are here because our anscestors were doing the same thing.

I'm tired of the population of my little town growing and growing as more people see what caused me to want to live here and move here themselves. But it seems awefully selfish to keep them all out just because I got here first. How would I have felt if they decided to shut the doors a couple of years before I got here.

I just haven't heard an answer to the undocumented immigrant question that I like yet. Somehow I don't think there will be an answer that I like all the way - I just hope someone smarter than me can come up with some more acceptable ideas than the ones I've heard so far.

OK Eddie, then lets swing wide open the borders and do away with the border crossings altogether. Let�s stop killing people by making them go through the desert. Oh yes, and lets up the tax on legal people to 500% so that we can pay for all the newcomers because there will be no laws to make them pay anything. Then we will no longer be concerned about war as we will be a third world country ourselves and everything will be wonderful.

Yep. You got me. That's exactly what I said we should do. I didn't mention anything like "Something should be done, I just don't know what".

Those all or nothing arguements are the kind I use with my 7 year old sometimes. They seem to be as effective as the old "if your friend jumps off a cliff are you going to do that too"., so I'm very familiar with the thought process.

But really - what does that have to do with anything? Have you got a REAL answer that seems workable and like the right thing to do?

I do have an idea or two. We could (are you ready for this?) make the law mean something, as in enforce it. My paternal grandfather immigrated to this country from Scotland. He came in through Ellis Island and became a US citizen. He even learned English (That is an attempt at a joke, it is a Scottish thing.) He paid his taxes and he worked for what he got. He served in the US army. When his wife died in childbirth of his first and only child he paid for childcare and even paid to send my father through Princeton. My father served in B-17�s out of Bassenborn, England. I flaked out, I served on river boats in PRVN then followed with 24 years of Naval service. Dad and I pied out taxes. Those who are filling, and in my part of the country I mean filling this country do not serve nor do they pay taxes. Over 50% of my county is Spanish speaking only. To get an office job here I must be Spanish speaking. Our hospitals are overworked and out of money. Our schools are all bi-lingual and they want to make our kids learn Spanish �for the good of all�.

I say we enforce the laws. What is the first word in the term Illegal Alien? We are not trying to catch and deport even two-time felons.

If I decided to move to Canada I would have to jump through all kinds of hoops. It would take several years and as a disabled man they may not let me in. If I were a Mexican I sneak in and everything will be alright. I have not had health insurance in six and a half years. If I was an Illegal and in Oregon I could have my teeth fixed, get new glasses and get the hearing aids I need for free.

Do you see a problem with what is going on? Am I a little disgusted? Yes, I am. I fought, I bled and I served this country and I feel I was privileged to do so. I see it all going down the drain. I see a huge invasion and we are doing nothing about it. I see crap!

Again - I'm not saying there aren't problems that need to be addressed. I just don't think sending home every illegal is the answer either.

I personally know of two kids who started as illegal immigrants and are now serving in the armed forces. I know of another who joined and was killed in Iraq.

I don't disagree that there are problems. I do disagree with some of the characterizations that ALL of these folks are just here to fill the emergency rooms, get services, and live off of the US entitlement programs. Some do, many more work for what they get.

Maybe that is the one thing that would be good about the worker status if it was given, is that then they could pay taxes and contribute more than they are.

I agree that we can't just open the floodgates. But maybe they could be opened more than they have been.

Someone mentioned a plan to give out more worker visas and make it a little easier, and then tell everyone they have to go home to their country of origin to get one and let them back. I find it extremely frustrating that there are folks waiting for permission to enter the US when their neighbors just grab a sack with some clothes and food and come on in.

Maybe making it easier for folks to enter legally from their country of origin and then cracking down on employers of undocumented folks would be successful, I don't know.

And that's just it. I don't know what the answer is, but I know what it isn't. And what we've been hearing a lot of are suggestions that just aren't the answer.

I am not in favor of throwing everyone out. I am in favor of letting those in who are willing to come here legally. I am in favor of tightening our borders and stopping the atrocities happening to those trying to cross. I am in favor of deporting those here illegally who commit chimes. I am in favor of an amnesty program that will document those here and wish to become real workers and that includes paying taxes. I am even in favor of supporting English classes so that they can learn out language.

I know many good Hispanic people around my home. I shudder to ask if they are legal. But these folks work and they work hard to support their families. They are not drunk and falling down in the streets after knife fights. I would not wish any harm on them or their families.

But the flood must stop. There needs to be some form of control. There needs to be some form of accountability.

I think we see eye to eye on this. I know I don�t have all the answers, I am just a broken machinist. I know the answer to the square root of negative two but I can�t come up with all the answers to our problems. I just know we need to do something.

Oh yes, one more thing, thanks for a civil discussion.

How about this. Those people are costing us a lot of money. Way more than they contribute. I'm talking billions of dollars.
When they are getting in my pocket I'm damned unhappy, and it's going to be worse for my kids. You can give them your heritage, but don't try to give them mine