Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Hunting Optics Zeiss 3-15x HD5 target turrets vs Swaro Z3 4-12 BT 4W vs Swaro Z5 BT 4w 3.5-18x

I'm generally a dialer and that is because I've shot with and tested both dialing and holding.

From reading the replies it seems to be evident that none have extensively used both dialing for elevation and holding for elevation using a BDC reticle to gain an understanding of the various attributes and problems with both methods.


There are a few points that are relative to this discussion in no particular order-

[i]
Almost always the participants have little to no training or competitive background in long range field shooting.

They do not practice at long range very much

They do not use scopes that are repeatable and consistent in adjustment

They usually have not verified their rifles drop and scope and when they do it usually is at relatively large targets at even yardages (300, 400, 500, etc)

They usually don't test from field positions, prone/sitting/kneeling and improvised rests

They don't usually test when they are cold, out of breath, excited, tired, fatigued,

They generally don't practice long range shooting in high winds

And the big one: they claim that "holding" is faster than "dialing" even though they have never timed it. [/i]


Put a shooter (any shooter) on a single 8 inch target at an odd yardage (say 471 yards, etc), in winds from 8-12 mph from an improvised uncomfortable shooting position, when they are tired, out of breath, can barely feel their fingers and it drizzling, and I guarantee you they will be faster to get a hit dialing for elevation/holding for wind than trying to judge the distance between two tick marks for elevation and holding out into space for wind.

Thanks for the laughs.

Formidilosus, what scopes do you like on your LR big game rigs?

Grow up.

You do things your way.....I'll do them mine. When mine stop working, I'll ask for your advise.

Don't hold your breath.

Never ceases to amaze me the guys that make simple tasks dificult/complicated.

Having used dialing to the direct range (custom BDC, the best solution for huntng), dialing the appropriate adjustment to the optic based on a chart or a computer generated firing solution, using a holdover based on the reticle, and just using a WAG I can say I prefer to directly dial the range vial a custom BDC (Bullet Drop Compensator).

Having said that I would also say that it is silly and stupid tell a guy who has successfully hunted for decades that his personal choice is wrong simply because I have a way that works better for me.

I know Bobinnh has dialed because he has actually used my personal rifle yet he choose a different path. That is what makes the world go around and makes choices for us all.

Bob is also sort of a curmudgeon but we are working on him (or is he working on us??).

Lots of choices. I might suggest we try lots of styles and shoot lots of practice before we decide what is best for our style of shooting and hunting.

Well...hell,John of course I'm sort of a curmudgeon. I'm 63 and I have earned it!

But the last three bucks I've killed, two of them were at app.340 and 330 yards and on one I could not get a reading with LRF because I was on my belly in knee-high buck brush and had to eyeball it;the other was hightailing it after a doe across a power line,and if I did not kill it before it reached the other side,it was "gone".(In both instances I got to read the distance AFTER I killed them because I couldn't do it before...circumstances did not allow.)

But I "knew" both were easily within PBR of the 270 and the Mashburn and considering circumstances I hit where I needed(wanted) to each time;one from prone over bins stuck in the dirt, and one wrapped in the sling from the sit.....so what was I supposed to do?

After you left the ranch I killed a 180-class buck spotted from a "long ways", north of the Freezeout; I crawled up there, jumped him off a bench and killed him first shot on the run at about 75 yards....we take what we can get sometimes and curmudgeon-hood was foisted on me and those were the cards I was dealt.

I don't claim to be the best rifle shot in the world,and don't have the skill sets of guys like you and Formidolosis but if I had not been a somewhat seasoned curmudgeon I might not have killed any of them

You know I don't have a thing in the world against dialing with a known scope and rifle,and consider it another "tool";and have said many times on here that my ability to practice regularly(something I believe in)...is limited to 600 yards and I would not dream of shooting at a live animal at a distance,or under circumstances I was not reasonably certain of killing it.I have walked away or passed on quite a few when it was questionable


You also know I was very impressed with your 264 and how you had it set up,as it is the only rifle I have ever shot that hit anything at 1200 yards! You can't make hits at those distances without dialing up and I recognize that all too well.

Thanks for your thoughts on this ...always appreciated.

Bob,

My point was more to the fellas who think dialing is the only answer for everybody or that holdover is the only answer for everybody. I know you have done both and holdover is your preferred method for hunting situations.

The curmudgeon remark was a little shot of irony. Some of the other guys seemed to have the "my way is the only way" hardening of the attitude.

OP - have you looked at the Leupold VX-6 3-18 X 44 or 50?

B&C reticle or Custom Drop Dial - drop reticles work at only one magnification unless in a first focal plane 'scope.

Would seem to have the kind of magnification range you want. I have one and can attest to the quality of its optics ... throughout the 6X soom range at all points.

Or the VX-6 2-12 X 42 ...

Hi Roger. Thanks so much for the suggestion. I have not considered it and will. I have a VX3, 6-20 (I think) on a Cooper .223 and am not particularly fond of the scope. I really ought to figure out why but it is related to eye relief. I actually prefer the Bushnell Elite 6-24x over it but neither hold a candle to the Zeiss conquest 3-9x 40 mm I have.

Some other scopes I've added to the mix to consider are NightForce 2-10x, 3-15x and a Schmidt and Bender something. I used to see a Precision Hunter S&B advertised but don't anymore.

Bob,
I concur whole heartedly with you assessment. The only thing a guy has to remember is (as long as the scope reticle is in the 2nd image plane) to turn the power ring to the max power setting. IMHO keep it simple and practice. Out to 500 yards with a ballistic reticle a 3.5 x 10 or a 2 x 12 (especially in a VX6) is as good as it gets. Personally I am not concerned about great groups as much as I am concerned about dinging the 12" steel plates every time the gun barks.
Turrets especially the yardage marked CDS style are nice but as you put it there is potential for a lot of things to happen in a short period of time that can make a dramatic difference in POI. Reticle equipped -- Range, point and settle in, Squeeze.

Dave

John,
Well said. Was not sure about the curmudgeon part or at least I wasn't until Bob said it was so. Whatever floats a guys boat. Personally I have stuck with reticles, practice with them (from odd positions and in different conditions) and use the same reticles in every scope.
On the other hand I have a couple of friends who are flat deadly dialing. They are especially deadly at ranges way past where I would take a shot at a game animal unless I was using a rifle with a turret. Shooter (by Sean Kennedy) on my IPhone, and a load programmed in said App, and had practiced adequately.
Fun to discuss. BTW one of my friends previously mentioned was the first shooter to shoot a 400 score at Rainer's Range in Zanesville, Ohio with his 6.5x47 Savage equipped with a Shilen Select Match 28" Bull Barrel. He was dialing of course.

Dave

To be clear I was specifically NOT talking about Bob or those who have put in the work of learning to shoot in the field and have chosen something different.

The 6x Leupolds are very good scopes and with the LR dot reticle they are probably the perfect choice for the majority if hunters, especially those concerned with light weight.


I shot some brief timed drills yesterday just to see how it came out between holding and dialing. Once I get the pics loaded I will post it.

Starting with a picture of the target array



The two 8 inch lolli-poppers (one's broken) are at 390 yards.
Then a 3 inch circle and colt speed plate at 400.
Behind and to the right is a 12 and 4 inch plate at 440 yards, as well as a rectangle.
Behind and to the left of them is a 6 inch circle at 462 yards.
And the farthest targets are a 12 and 4 inch square at 475 yards.

The drill was simple- starting with loaded rifle and rangefinder in hand, on the buzzer drop down either prone or kneeling on a barricade and fire one shot alternating holding both elevation and windage, and dialing for elevation and holding wind. Record the time and whether it was a hit or not. Data for the gun was well known and the wind was variable from almost no correction to 1.1 mils of hold.

Remember that the starting position was the same for each shot, the rangefinder was used for each shot, the turret was reset to "0" and the magnification was turned down to start each shot. The same gun and scope was used for every shot.

Results-




Overall, as has been the same every time we do it given the same skill level between dialing and holding, dialing was both faster and more accurate. Now I will state that the time difference was almost a non-factor. There were fifteen shots taken with each method and the average time was less than a second faster for dialing. I did miss two more targets holding than I did for dialing and that is to be expected.


Love the theory of the- "5 seconds or he's gone" scenarios.

Your sure making alot of assumptions and painting with a broad brush, no?

Are you consulting your drop chart between shots as one would have to do in the field under distances that cant be planned for?
Are you worried about your turret taking a spin as it rubs against something like a scabbard?
IMO Too much farting around for hunting and I am standing by that. YMMV.

By your last post no, I'm not.

Yes, every shot was referenced off a drop chart.

No, I'm not worried about a turret spinning from rubbing up against something because I use scopes that are designed properly.

There is no "farting" around and that statement makes it obvious that you have not used both nearly enough to understand that.

This is generally one of those cases where people don't know what they don't know. They think dialing means donning reading glasses and slooowwly counting every click. It's not. You rip a turret to a number. In straight up measured time, it takes less than two seconds.

I use both methods nearly every day, and if I need to make a shot on one target, at one range I dial elevation and hold for wind because it results in more hits.

For some one that knows it all you sure are slow on the trigger.

Run a similar test and be honest with the results. I know, I for one, would be interested in comparing your times to his.

I prefer ballistic reticles over door nobs. A Zeiss Rapid Z or Swaro BRH once entered into a simple BR calculator found on the Mfr website and then field tested makes it simple and effective to kill game at long distances.

All scopes mentioned are top-notch....grab one & go shoot