Home Forums Miscellaneous Topics Christ at the Campfire Abortion

People have many different positions on abortion. Pro-choice and pro-life are media creations and IMO, not indictive of the real world where most folks are somewhere between the two. In the US, the most commonly held opinion is nominally pro-life. People favor abortions only for cases of rape or where the mother's life is at stake.

Here's my question: Do you think these last two scenarios are valid cases for aborting a life?

I got an idea, Mark. Why don't you cut to the chase and ask a real controversial question? <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> (kidding.)

What you are asking is whether we have any right to determine priorities on life.

Who would WANT to make the decision on whether to end the life of their child or risk the life of their wife? But, that decision sometimes has to be made. Do we leave it to Providense? If we do, how far do we take that philosophy? Do we apply it to everything in life?

Do we then say, whether I make it to work tomorrow is up to God, so I won't bother setting the alarm? Do we say, Whether I catch some terrible desease is up to God, so I won't bother getting innoculated for anything, or have my children get their shots either? Perhaps some would, but my thoughts are that such things are foolishness.

This world is in our care. We have been given minds that are wonders in creation, and the Spirit within us for guidance. The questions you ask are heavy, but the answers must be given. I have a problem with abortion in the case of rape. It appears to me to be murder on top of violation, but that is me. If I was a woman and was forced to carry to term a child that was created by such an act, I might not have such feelings, but I am not. Even so, however, the child did not commit any wrong. Why should he or she pay with their life? It would seem that support by churches, friends, family and then options such as adoption if desired would be more pure.

In the case of the mother's life, a decision would need to be made. Each case should be weighed, but my choice would be for the mother, unless she insisted.

Interesting post Sanlen. Thanks for your thoughts.

Even if the rape is committed by her father?

Now you're talking about a good case for capital punishment.

I think Brother Sanlen has hit on a couple good points. It's one of those things that you can theorize on, and hypothesize on and think about and form opinions on, but when it happens to YOU and YOUR wife, or YOUR daughter, that's where the rubber meets the road.

Kinda like guys that have never been in the position where they are likely going to have to use deadly force against another human saying it would be easy to do. It's not!

Until you've walked those roads, you'll never know how many potholes there are along the way. I think the best we can do is pray the power and protection and the mercy of God on our wives and families. And then for grace if it happens, and wisdom and the mind of Christ to get us through on the right path.

You said when it happens to "YOU and YOUR wife, or YOUR daughter, that's where the rubber meets the road."


I ain't never gonna walk those roads because I will never have to decide if I should get an abortion because my father raped me. Shouldn't the one carrying the cross be the one to decide if she should give birth to her father's child?

the incest issue further complicates things.
the related rapist obviously should have no say in the matter. time for serious, serious, SERIOUS prayer. that's where the answer lies...

Tuff, tuff questions. I pray that none of us ever find out how tuff first hand.

I will offer My "opinion" only.

In the case of the life of the Mother, it's not a right to life issue in my view because, it's - "a life for a life" senerio. The senerio can't be "in therory though, there should be hard knowledge that the mother WILL die.

In the case of non-relative rape - I side with Life for the unborn. There are simply too many testimonies of beutiful people who came into this world in that horrific fasion yet have been used in a mighty way for God.

In the case of Rape by Insest (brother, father, uncle, grandfather, or 1st cousin) I can only look to scripture for the anwser.
In Genesis 19 records the story of Lot leaving Sodom. In it his Daughters fear they are the only inhabitants on earth, and in fact they get their Father drunk and Rape him. Kinda backwards rape, but the result is the same. They both got pregnant and bore sons.
Keep in mind that this takes place before the Law was given. The funny thing is, that it's (to my knowledge) never mentioned again in scripture.
What we do know is that there Offspring were the evil Moabites and Ammonites. So maybe they were cursed. But at anyrate God never condems the daughters, Except that he makes it clear later on to Moses that this is behavior is a major no no. Not that this caught God by suprise, he knew in time immemorial that this was going to take place.

So what is my answer? Well, While I see it as a hanious Sin, I see no scriptural reason to justify Abortion. God allowed the life to be concieved, and I have to trust him on that.

I have done no hard study on this subject so if you have scripture to refute my view, please post it. If I am in error I will accept that.

What does your heart and mind say? What would you say to the 11 year old girl that is carrying her father's child? I think looking into her eyes and saying "serious prayer" would handle everything just fine........not

serious prayer would yield an answer, not a situation of "everything is just fine." could be brutally hard. could be fine. could be in between.
assuming the father/rapist is legally taken out of the picture, i imagine the girl's mother would decide quickly on abortion. if there is no mother or other guardian in the picture, then the child's state of residence would do ... what?
didn't the tv show "law and order tackle" something similar? IIRC it was a show that made the viewer twist in his/her seat.
this is a hard issue. i hope i never have to face anything similar.
if i were kin to the mythical 11-year-old girl in question, the rapist/father would be in mortal danger from me and mine if he were not quickly put under lock and key.

It isn't a mythical girl. I was in the Guardian AD Litem program in Florida for a few years. There was an 11 year old that was carrying her grandfathers child, and a 14 year old that was about to have her father's child.

We are not talking about what we would do to the rapist, this issue is bigger then that. We are also not talking about what we would do that would make us feel better (mortal danger from me if not put under lock and key). Those are selfish, things we would do to make US feel better and safe.

The real concern is the welfare of the victimized child.

absolutely right, steel. revenge IS a selfish deed. just a visceral reaction. i'm sure i'd be over any homicidal urges after a day or so.
what happened with the girls? were abortions performed or babies brought to term and placed in an orphanage?
were the two girls placed under care of relatives? foster homes?
what horrid crimes ...

The 11 year old had an abortion and grandpa went to jail. She is with her mother.

The other girl had the child and is living with her older sister in Atlanta (the older sister was also abused by the father). You don't even want to know, but he is free and living with his beloved wife last that I knew. Courts really buggered that one.

I am amazed at the women that still stay with these men. Just like the step father that molested my GF in Florida. Her mom is still with him and he is a deacon in the church.

God love it........

mercy.

hard to remember sometimes that vengeance is, indeed, His.

i'll not offer details, steel, for the sake of privacy but i really do know where you're coming from.

Questions like this do tend to take away the black and white views that are so easy to adopt.

In the case of a mother's life being in danger, I would lean towards saving the mother. There is no guarantee that the child is going to be healthy and live through the birth to begin with. And I'm selfish and would want to keep my wife around. But in the end I would probably leave the decision up to her.

The case of rape is much more subjective. For some victims you are asking them to endure 9 months of hell and being reminded daily of what they endured. For others it could be part of the healing process and seeing something good come of a bad situation. Again, I would have to leave it up to the individual circumstances and what is best for the victim of the rape.

Without trying to put oil on the water, cuz I usually do not even try, maybe in the case of rape/incest, God's mercy and grace may prevail. I know we are not under the law, and I don't like to make more of grace than God does, but these situations do beg a full measure of mercy AND grace, IMHO, anyway.

Well said, Mark. There is a new life who has done nothing to deserve death. There is a woman who needs to know she is loved and not found guilty of anything in getting into the condition (assuming a forced rape). The question is, how much love do we have and how well can we give that love to those who need it? How well can we assure them that they are unconditionally loved, both the mother and the child?

On the subject of revenge, this also has the point of prevention. I personally do believe that capital punishment is a deterent. It doen't function as well when that punishment is delayed for decades, but immediate death scares the evil hearted. This punishment is decreed by the word of God, and should not be considered selfish revenge. For this it should be done by a government, and done quickly. This is the very reason that governments were established by God after the Flood, to stop those who hunted man and turned the world into a place that God repented that He had made man. It keeps man from spiralling down to complete anarchy where every imagination of their heart is evil continually.

Yes, I do., and I would also add incest with a minor child as a valid reason as well as a major problem with the fetus. <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Ethan Edwards,



You have two questions. For the first one I say, "Absolutely not!

For the second...
My second daughter spent the last five months of her pregnancy in the hospital to save her life and the life of her baby. I don't believe "to save the life of the mother" is realistic with modern facilities.