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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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What if I don't want to use Bergers, BUT DO WANT EVERYBODY TO NOTICE ME!?!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire Ranger
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I've found walking down the street naked gets a lot of attention.
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Campfire Regular
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Seems if you DON'T use Bergers is when everybody notices you. I can't quite figure out why the need to explain how good they are, if they are really that good. And yeah, I've used them. mtmuley
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Campfire Outfitter
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In the interest of balance, here is another link: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/lets-see-your-berger-kills-94959/I know you guys all mean well, but really, I want you to know, Berger bullets work fine for hunting at long and short ranges, in a plethora of situations. There is ample evidence of this, and documented accounts of hundreds of people in support. They aren't magic, and they do things other than what some would have them do, but for me, and for so many, my experience, though limited, supports their acceptable use on big game. I hear they don't often exit, but that hasn't been my experience. I hear they are soft, but I have seen no lack of penetration. They just behave differently that most hunting bullets. Not better, just different. There is a sort of philosophy behind their use for me, a set of ideals that they fit into, just like TTSX, Accubonds, Partitions, SAF, etc, fit into the ideals of others. I understand the desire to shoot tough bullets. I've got some loads worked up with some Interbonds and SST's, and I've got a box of Accubonds and a few Partitions, all brands 180s, to work up as well. How I will use them remains to be seen. Maybe I'll put one in the pipe for close shots, and then if I need to stretch it out a long way, I'll swap for a VLD. I don't attach a dogma to bullets. I will use what I like, and I encourage others to do the same. And to share diverse experiences from mine. Rant over. It seems we agree more than we disagree. Like you, I know Berger VLDs work well most of the time. From the accounts of others and photos I also know they can be very destructive � as one would expect from the manufacturer�s own performance claims. As a result I have no need or desire to try VLDs and prove on a low sample count what others have proven many times over. Mule Deer (John Barsness) once claimed I made my bullet decisions based on cost (the reference was primarily about North Fork bullets) and persisted making the claim even after I explained I used them in spite of the cost, not because of it. I pay my own freight and use what I do because it works for me. In my first post in this thread I explained why Berger VLD�s are not for me. The responses of some of the VLD advocates have been to ignore rational and impartial discussion and resort to ad hominem attack. (From which I consider them to have conceded they cannot support their case based on facts.) Damn � you�d think I was advocating independent religious thought back in the days of the Spanish Inquisition. It�s kind of like deciding whether or not to try meth � with all the information available from various sources, first-hand experience isn�t really required to make a well-reasoned and intelligent decision. If a person wants the performance a Berger VLD can provide I�m perfectly OK with their choice and I wish them the best.
Coyote Hunter - NRA Patriot Life, NRA Whittington Center Life, GOA, DAD - and I VOTE!
No, I'm not a Ruger bigot - just an unabashed fan of their revolvers, M77's and #1's.
A good .30-06 is a 99% solution.
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Campfire Outfitter
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I used to think the only way to kill an elk-sized animal humanely was to shoot tough bullets in bigger bores. After opening my mind and considering the experiences of others, I killed a 6X6 with a puny 6.5mm 140 grain bullet originally designed to outperform other target bullets in matches. Did I mention it was the quickest, most humane kill I've ever witnessed or personally had? I'll still shoot accubonds, ballistic tips, A-Maxes as well. If I ever go to Africa for elephant, rhino or hippo, I'll consider Barnes
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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MD nails it again That's the way Berger threads usually go. Most of the posts come from people who say they'd never even consider using a Berger. To make sure nobody has missed their point, they repeat it later in the same thread, saying the same thing, usually right after somebody provides their "real life" experience with Bergers.
Though most of 'em do say, "Feel free to use whatever you want," at least after the 5th time they post. In the interest of balance, here is another link: http://www.longrangehunting.com/forums/f17/lets-see-your-berger-kills-94959/I know you guys all mean well, but really, I want you to know, Berger bullets work fine for hunting at long and short ranges, in a plethora of situations. There is ample evidence of this, and documented accounts of hundreds of people in support. They aren't magic, and they do things other than what some would have them do, but for me, and for so many, my experience, though limited, supports their acceptable use on big game. I hear they don't often exit, but that hasn't been my experience. I hear they are soft, but I have seen no lack of penetration. They just behave differently that most hunting bullets. Not better, just different. There is a sort of philosophy behind their use for me, a set of ideals that they fit into, just like TTSX, Accubonds, Partitions, SAF, etc, fit into the ideals of others. I understand the desire to shoot tough bullets. I've got some loads worked up with some Interbonds and SST's, and I've got a box of Accubonds and a few Partitions, all brands 180s, to work up as well. How I will use them remains to be seen. Maybe I'll put one in the pipe for close shots, and then if I need to stretch it out a long way, I'll swap for a VLD. I don't attach a dogma to bullets. I will use what I like, and I encourage others to do the same. And to share diverse experiences from mine. Rant over. It seems we agree more than we disagree. Like you, I know Berger VLDs work well most of the time. From the accounts of others and photos I also know they can be very destructive � as one would expect from the manufacturer�s own performance claims. As a result I have no need or desire to try VLDs and prove on a low sample count what others have proven many times over. Mule Deer (John Barsness) once claimed I made my bullet decisions based on cost (the reference was primarily about North Fork bullets) and persisted making the claim even after I explained I used them in spite of the cost, not because of it. I pay my own freight and use what I do because it works for me. In my first post in this thread I explained why Berger VLD�s are not for me. The responses of some of the VLD advocates have been to ignore rational and impartial discussion and resort to ad hominem attack. (From which I consider them to have conceded they cannot support their case based on facts.) Damn � you�d think I was advocating independent religious thought back in the days of the Spanish Inquisition. It�s kind of like deciding whether or not to try meth � with all the information available from various sources, first-hand experience isn�t really required to make a well-reasoned and intelligent decision. If a person wants the performance a Berger VLD can provide I�m perfectly OK with their choice and I wish them the best.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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How many elk have you killed with a barnes or mono copper bullet?
Kent
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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Kent
That begs me to ask:How many Elk or animals does one have to shoot "himself" with any given caliber or bullet to have enough examples to claim such caliber or bullet is a reliable killer?
We all know the Barnes/Nosler and others are proven killers as the .338 WM/'06 and others are great big game calibers so, do we have to do it again and again/each of us to show once again they work until we meat some magical number?
Nothing personal but it is a question I keep asking myself when I read these forums.....
Good luck on your hunting this year....
Jayco
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How many elk have you killed with a barnes or mono copper bullet?
Kent Zero. I'm sure they work well as all the others, but I think their construction is overkill, their BC sucks compared to most any other bullet in the same caliber, accuracy can't hang with Match Grade bullets, and they are Kalifornistan mandated/friendly politically correct. (not a knock whatsoever on the owners of Barnes, Randy and Connie, who are fantastic people and unsung heroes in the Wolf War) I think mono-metals have their place, but are unnecessary for most NA big game. African game brain shots and tougher-than-hell cape buff/rhino hide? Yes!
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I just find it curious that someone with one VDL kill and no Barnes kills, has multiple posts on a thread comparing the two... and the task takers ignore it.
Kent
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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In case anybody's forgotten (and many apparently have) this was the original post in this thread, from Landkiller:
"Who uses Berger bullets for elk? Results/experiences please."
He did NOT ask who will never use Berger bullets for elk, or who has used both Bergers and other bullets for elk. He asked who has used them, and what happened, and rcmuglia's elk qualifies. His reason for not using monometal bullets are a little bit of side-issues, but not really, since they illustrate why he chose a Berger, and his dead elk illustrates that in his instance it worked great. Which is what the OP was asking.
Very soon after it started the thread wandered off into the realm of "not me!" and what MIGHT happen. This doesn't seem to occur when people ask about other possible elk bullets, whether Barnes Triple Shocks, Nosler Partitions or AccuBonds or even Remington Core-Lokt's. Apparently only Bergers get the theory and pulpit boys stirred up--usually the same boys who've already expressed their opinion five or 10 or 100 times earlier on the same subject.
Now, back to our regular programming. I can see a line forming already.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.” John Steinbeck
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Campfire Outfitter
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The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire Ranger
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Ironic is when you say "When you do it this way, you don't need a stupid Barnes X solid copper bullet".
That is funny.
Barnes threads here in the past have been just as turbulent... the VDL is the new kid on the block and going through growing pains, it'll get hashed out.
Kent
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I wonder how anyone ever killed anything, including elk, prior to 1985, the year Barnes introduced the expanding X Bullet? Or before 1979, the year Barnes introduced the Solid for African Dangerous Game? Karamojo Bell probably thinks that's really funny
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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You should have just left the barnes bashing out... instead you opened yourself up to the same criticism others have taken in this thread... for continually commenting on a bullet they've never used.
Kent
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Campfire Regular
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I wonder how anyone ever killed anything, including elk, prior to 1985, the year Barnes introduced the expanding X Bullet? Or before 1979, the year Barnes introduced the Solid for African Dangerous Game? Karamojo Bell probably thinks that's really funny How did they kill anything before 1903? :-)
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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You should have just left the barnes bashing out... instead you opened yourself up to the same criticism others have taken in this thread... for continually commenting on a bullet they've never used.
Kent So you can't say the .338 win mag is an elk killer if you haven't used it or maybe the Nosler is one of the best bullets out there, if you haven't used it? Sounds a little Commie to me. Jayco
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Campfire Ranger
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So how do work the word 'stupid' into describing a 338 as an elk killer.
The correct correlation is saying a stupid 338 is too tough for elk.
Kent
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Campfire Tracker
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Maybe you ought to explain that one to the thousands of people who use it successfully year after year like Jack Atcheson and many others.
Who died and made you hall monitor?
Jayco
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Campfire Ranger
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Damn you're dense... My 338 has killed plenty of elk... your analogy of my comment was 180 degrees from it's context.
Kent
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