Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Comments re: Elmer Keith and Jack O'Connor

Tenderfoot good post! Thanks.
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<br>From what I know of Elmer, talking with men who
<br>hunted with him. He was a true blue man with not
<br>an ounce of ill will in him toward anybody.
<br>The only thing that I know of him coming close to wrong
<br>doing is when (as a friend of mine who witnessed it) Elmer pulled his 29 and shot a Redtail while it was
<br>flying a good 40 yards above them.
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<br>If I remember right Elmer liked the 458 for elk and the
<br>338 for antelope.
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<br>Also, Why would anybody think that the Outdoor life
<br>position is so hot?
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Jmac,
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<br> I thought I read somewhere that Keith thought the .270 was a 'darn good varmit' caliber or some such thing. I thought he was just being sarcastic and such. Take it, he was serious.
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<br>Think I saw someone here mention that Keith was physically small in stature. Funny how he like the big bores. Seems like the smaller guys like the magnums while the guys the size of defensive linemen like the small bores
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<br> Leo

SU35,
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<br>I don't like these stories so I am not going to read you.
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<br>Don

SU35,
<br>Ackley also filed the sears off of a couple of Elmer's shotguns.The final straw was when he put an extra long fireing pin in an Enfield,which made it go off when Elmer closed the bolt.After that,Elmer went to him and told him if one more thing happened,he'd kill him and not think twice.And it never did.This is all written up in Hell I Was There,though he didn't give Ackley's name.
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<br>As to Elmer's stature-he was 5'6 I belive,and wore a size 5 1/2 cowboy boot.At his fattest he weighted something like 160 pounds,when he was an old man.In his prime he probibly weighted 120 or so.If he was a foot taller he would have given John Wayne a run for his money!

PO Ackley tried to kill/maim Elmer Kieth?
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<br>All this seems a bit bizarre...
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<br>But, hell, I wasn't there....

I wasn't "There," either -- at the Ogden Arsenal -- but I was "there" -- in Elmer's home in Salmon, Idaho -- when he told me more than once the details of what you've read in his book (and above). At home, in our private conversations, he didn't omit any names when he told of the threats and attempts to kill him. I wonder whether he put them in his manuscript and the editor deleted them. In our private conversations, Elmer spoke of these events as calmly and matter-of-factly as he described the behavior of jackrabbits he'd shot with solid bullets -- no rancor, no name-calling, no characterization, no criticism, no opining, just "this happened -- that occurred -- So-and-So did such-and-such -- the wind from the north was chilly that day" -- etc. He was obviously NOT putting-on a pity party or running somebody down -- he was simply relating facts of his past, as they applied to some greater topic of the moment. The details of the rag-packed shotgun barrel, for example, related to something like sensitivity to the balance and '"trim" of a shotgun, or stopping and checking when something doesn't feel right. The identity of the would-be assassin was purely incidental -- much the same as he might identify the make of the scope in describing a specific shot he'd made, in a chat about bullet placement on a barren-land caribou. He usually cited his guides by name, never as just "the guide." His private remarks about more-somber events like assassination attempts were similar. I never heard Elmer say, for example, So-and-So tried to kill me." That was the natural conclusion to draw from the details that he did describe, but Elmer just gave the details and left the obvious conclusions up to me.

From what I've read about Elmer Keith I find it hard to believe that someone could point a loaded rifle/shotgun/pistol at him and get away with it......from all accounts he seldom went anywhere unarmed and I would expect he would produce one of his big-bore revolvers with suprising speed if need be. A "hard" man who grew up in hard times....I don't believe he would have accepted an insult like that from anyone.

WB,
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<br>It is hard for me to believe that O'Connor purposely pointed a loaded shotgun at Keith in front of their peer group and that, having done so, his only punishment was to be uninvited to the Winchester seminars. Do you know what year this event is reported to have taken place? I have seen pictures of O'Connor and Keith as older men at Remington seminars, along with their peers, so why wouldn't the "boys" rally around Elmer and ostracize Jack?
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<br>Also, I thought that they both lived in Salmon, ID, which can't be that big a town, certainly not big enough for both of them.
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<br>I have no direct knowledge of these events, but, if they are true, they would put a totally different spin on the personality of JO than I would have believed possible.
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<br>Please enlighten me!
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<br>Sincerely,
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<br>Bearrr264

I just don't understand why someone would want ot kill him? Because they argued about ballistics?
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<br>Intentionally sabotaging a gun is pretty serious just because you like big/small bores....
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<br>Was PO Ackley a few sandwiches short of a picnic?
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Ken, you can obviously see that we need some more first hand knowledge on the topics being raised. Perhaps you can enlighten us. By the way, readers, Elmer lived in Salmon and Jack lived in Lewiston. Both in Idaho. I talked with Elmer's son and he simply said they didn't have anything in common except their hunting and didn't communicate. No wild stories such as those related here.

Elmer was indeed FAST (with handgun, rifle, and shotgun), but he never fired hastily or blindly. FAST isn't the same as HASTY.
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<br>He was a deputy in Salmon. One day, he entered the jailer's office just as some jail escapees burst into the office through the door from the cell block and pointed a gun at the jailer. Elmer had that four-inch forty-four out and pointed in a flash, "with five eighths of an ounce left on the double-action pull," but didn't fire. Instead, he said just "Drop it," and the jerk's gun all of a sudden got as if it were white-hot in his hand.
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<br>Elmer was proud of the fact that he'd never shot anybody --- but he made it equally clear that he stood ready to shoot anybody whom he knew he had to shoot, to save himself or someone else. He knew that the escaping inmate wasn't that close to the verge of shooting, and he knew that J O'C was just being a smart ass with that loaded shotgun.
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<br>I wasn't along on the Georgia bird shoot with Elmer, but a friend who was there told me that while they were walking to the area where they were going to shoot, a covey of birds flushed from virtually under their feet. My friend -- a superb shotgunner and bird-hunter in his own right -- said that while everyone else was too startled to do more than jump and gasp, Elmer dropped two birds.
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<br>I know of several other pranks that certain renowned and revered writer colleagues pulled on Elmer, to discredit and embarrass him, but I'm not going to relate them here. The other writers are dead and gone, and I have no desire to discredit them. (I know who did these things, and I no longer have much respect for them, either -- but crowds of their other readers do.) If someone else brings-up these other episodes, I'll confirm or correct that version, but I won't volunteer 'em as long as they're still off the board. They're better left untold (as long as they remain untold).

Well Dr. Howell, that is all one can ask.
<br>You are a class act and I for one can appreciate your stand on this issue, I of course would like to hear a lot more of our famous writers, especially these two.
<br>But fully understand one not wanting to comment on those that have passed on, like they say it is not right to speak ill of the dead for they can not defend themselves.
<br>Did you know much of Bob Milek, he is another one that I would have liked to have met, along with yourself of course, but I never seem to get the chance, living where I live.
<br>Bill

I wish that Bob Milek were still alive -- you'd love the little guy.I'll mourn his early death until I die.
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<br>Bob, like Elmer, didn't let being short bother him. The last time I saw him (at a SHOT Show), he was looking at an exhibitor's quilted two-rifle case. It was just a tad over four feet long and a few inches over a foot wide. Bob had it laid open, on the exhibitor's counter as I walked up.
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<br>"What's that?" I asked. "A Bob Milek sleeping bag?"
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<br>Bob laughed. Just then, Dave Hetzler (Guns & Ammo) walked by.
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<br>"Did you hear what Ken said?" Bob asked. Dave said he hadn't, so Bob repeated my remark and laughed with delight. His laugh was always close to the surface, and he enjoyed any opportunity to let it loose. Whenever we were together, he loved to recall the time, as he said it, when he "found an editor useful."
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<br>On the 1978 Grand National mixed-bag hunt, Bob and I were members of Bill Jordan's team. Bob had never hunted gray squirrels before. I had. I spotted one looking at us from inside the stub of a hollow limb. Bob shot it, thinking it'd kick forward and tumble out. Instead, the squirrel just died there with its head hanging out the end of the limb stub.
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<br>The lowest hand-hold on that big tree was pretty high up. I leaned my gun against another tree, leaned my back against the squirrel's tree, and laced my fingers together to give Bob a boost. He still couldn't reach anything he could grasp to begin climbing.
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<br>"Stand on my shoulders," I said. He did -- but still couldn't reach high enough.
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<br>"Stand on my head," I said. Bob reminded me that his boots had Vibram "waffle-stomper" soles. "Go ahead," I said. "Stand on my head. Just don't DANCE on my ol' bald noggin."
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<br>Bob stood on my head, reached something he could grab, pulled himself up, and climbed up high enough to retrieve his squirrel. But first, he asked our partner Hal Swiggett to take a photo of us, with Bob standing on my head.

Oh man! you gotta post that one.

No doubt about it. Bob Milek was a class act. I grew up reading his stories, and can still remember the day when I read in Petersen's Hunting that he had passed away.
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<br>2nd

Thank you for that story, yes post that type of photo if you get time.
<br>I enjoyed reading him and thought it was neat when I found out he liked the 25/06 just like me.
<br>I have always thought it would be nice to hear at least how the families were doing now, as you always read about there children and wives in a lot of stories and then when they are gone, you never here anymore.
<br>Bill

I probably never would have believed the 44 magnum long shots either. However, a friend of mine and a buddy of his had access to an area where they could set up a range of up to 1200 yards for several years. It was up against a large hill and most of the fields were watermelon fields and mostly East Texas sand.
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<br>One of their experiments was shooting 44 magnum pistols at 6 gallon and 10 gallon oil barrels. Mostly at 400 yards. With a rest they could hit the 10 gallon 6 of 6 times, and the 6 gallon 4 of 6 times. Their conclusion was that you are in more danger at 400 yards from a 44 magnum pistol than from an AR15 or AK47 (they extensively tested both and said they both didn't do too much to the barrels at 400 yards). They both are avid 45/70 users now as they did extensive shooting with 45/70's out to 1200 yards. Both big bullet converts.

TWIMC,
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<br>I read the O'Conner book yesterday. It was OK, but I doubt that I'll wear the dust jacket to tatters reading and rereading it.
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<br>I was surprised to learn how O'Conner manipulated the system, through his use of "museum specimen licenses", to shoot desert sheep. There are those who feel that the end justifies the means, but I am not one of those men. I can't imagine Keith doing something so self-serving.
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<br>Although it may not be fair to compare two (2) of the true giants of American firearms literature, when I balance O'Conner and Keith, I think that Elmer would have been a more interesting and congenial dinner partner. Heck, I could ask him whatever happened to his .256 Newton #129!
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<br>Sincerely,
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<br>Bearrr264

People were trying to assasinate Elmer Keith? I don't believe that but I do know that Ken Howell has been on a character assasination binge here over the legend of Parker Ackley.

"People were trying to assasinate Elmer Keith?" True
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<br>"Ken Howell has been on a character assasination binge here over the legend of Parker Ackley." Calumny