Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Griz Defense with Bergers

How far did those slugs penetrate?

I wouldn't think big, slow, soft projectiles like those would penetrate deep enough in a big, tough critter like a Kodiac.

DF

Nope, rcamglia, I'm not suggesting anything. This is what I posted: "I bring my 375H&H with a 260gr Nosler Partition that I know will flat thump a griz that has the want or need to cause me bodily harm!

Ya'll do what you want but I ain't gonna be eaten on...then say to my self...man I wish I brought a bigger gun!"

And yes that happens to be my deer and elk rifle even if I'm NOT in Griz country.

To be honest, I've never really rolled the idea of what it might feel like to be gnawed to death but there is something within me that prefers to be on this side of the grass.

That said, there's also something within me that says "you need another rifle." 338-06 seems quite sensible.

That's exactly what I use to hunt Kodiak deer. A Mod. 70 FW 338-06 loaded with 250NP @ around 2600fps. It works great on deer with little meat damage, also works good on black bear, caribou and moose. So far I haven't had to try it on brown bear fortunately. When I shot my brownie I used my .375 HH with 300NP. --- Mel

rcam - IF, IF you were asking/responding to my part of this post.

I don't need to check the OP and I'm NOT suggesting a 375 HH. I was simply saying "he NEEDED a tougher bullet". That's what I said.

I have a collection of bones acquired over the years. I am primarily interested in the size and shape of the humerus (upper arm, or in this case, the front leg) and scapula (shoulder blade) from various animals.

As noted above, even a brown bear scapula at its thinnest will allow some light though. The scapula is not the problem.

The humerus below the scapula however is a very heavy bone, and the extremely heavy ball at the end of the humerus that joins with the scapula is likely the most difficult resistance that a bullet might encounter. Consider that your choice of shots is not likely to be optimum under the conditions of a fast incoming blur of brown.

This head of the humerus is the size of large man's fist and is a thick and heavy bone. The humerus of a mature brown bear is perhaps a bit less heavy than that of a three year old bison. It is definitely heavier than that of a mature bull elk.

That is the bone to consider when wondering about Berger VLD bullets, and choice of cartridge perhaps. A grizzly humerus would probably be somewhat lighter than that of a brown bear, but I doubt it would likely be called light-boned by most people.

I would not trust a fast expanding bullet to defeat that heavy ball of the humerus and still have the mass and momentum to destroy vital organs and quickly kill a large animal.

I do not know about the Berger VLD as I have never used one. But I can tell you this for a fact. A 250 grain Swift A-Frame will completely destroy the head of the humerus of an adult bull elk at 13 yards when fired from a .338 Win Mag,, and will continue on to kill the elk.

That is not too much different from what might happen with an incoming grizzly and that is why I personally carry that load when hunting elk among the grizzlies.

Best of luck with your choices OP. I like that thought of the .338-06.

WyoM70

10-4!

BTW, a buddy of mine works for the Government. They did all kinds of testing with different firearms. They shot old cars in different locations on the vehicle. Engine block, doors etc....

He said the only thing that penetrated BOTH DOORS and exited was a 12 gauge slug.

Not pushing this view, but it could change the way a decision regarding caliber/bullet/rifle is made here....

Consider that you are going to hunt the same bear that you might meet on your deer hunt. You get to choose the rifle, ammo, etc. You also get to choose the shot, will you take it or pass and wait for a better shot. What is the minimum you would choose to take if you were hunting that bear?

Now, consider the situation where you might meet said bear while deer hunting and have to shoot. You don't get to choose if you want to take the shot or not...you have to take it regardless of any other factors. What is the minimum you would choose if you were looking at a charge?

It's a best case/worst case scenario but it made me think a little. Looking at those 2 scenario's I'd be carrying a bigger rifle to hunt deer than I would to actually hunt the bear....

Haven't hunted Grizzly and don't shoot bergers but, I'd have my 308 Winchester stoked with 180 gr Partitions at 2600 fps, RL-15 will get ya there if considering it.

Gunner

Now I wish I kept my Whelen. LOL.

That has pretty much followed my line of thinking too JCM. If I ever have any trouble with a grizzly while elk hunting, I expect it to be under unfavorable conditions - meaning close range, incoming, and very little time to think.

If I knew all that ahead of time, I would probably be using a heavier rifle and cartridge combo.

The one thing I would want above all else however, is a bullet that will not come apart nor expand too rapidly.

Maybe then I will have a chance to survive unscathed, if luck is with me.

Most of the time, the grizzlies will let you go in peace. Or they will retreat quietly, unknown to you. Much more often than not, they will not cause you any trouble.

But the wrong bear, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, may make you glad you selected and carried an adequate bullet/cartridge combination.

Got one I'll loan ya.

Gunner

Gotta disagree with much of what you are saying... First, all leg bones in brown bears are relatively lighter than any ungulate and by a lot. It is tough, flexible stuff, not the huge bones of other critters.

Second, why are you worrying about shooting a charging bear in the ball of the humerus? They usually come straight at ya... At least when charging...

I have never tried to kill a car by shooting it. I have used a bunch of slugs on critters.

I will always choose a modest rifle bullet over a slug...

Under the chin, baby! Under the chin!





I'm sure you saw that coming though.

If i was going to hunt in a area for deer that i had a good chance of encountering a Grizzly at point blank range and using a 30 cal, it would be my 30-06 loaded with Nosler 200 gr Partition and Hod 4831. I have nothing against Berger Bullet and use them occasionally , but just don't believe they would be the best choice for a Grizzly Charge at mere Feet , unlike the Bear Photos Burns posted , which i would bet were shot at least a 100 yards or more distant and not at point blank range with the head and chest your only target .

I don't know about any body else...but I never chose a bullet based on emotion...I picked them based on what they would do,once I had seen them perform on game animals.In other words, I didn't start shooting Partitions and Bitterroots years ago for reasons associated with advertising.

All the confidence in the world does not change thin,brittle jackets not tapered and designed for controlled expansion,weight retention,and penetration,and brittle antimony cores; all housed in C&C designs not built to withstand high impact velocities.The 150 gr 30 caliber bullet never much impressed me with tits penetration abilities....even Partitions and the ony one i would trust based on reputation is a Barnes. But I never used them or the 308 for anything but range time.

If you get that "shattered glass ball" effect at close range and the bullet fails to penetrate through whatever it is you hit,and it could very well be the difference between killing what you are shooting, and a splash wound,which is something you don't want.

Emotion doesn't have a damned thing to do with it....not for me.



rcamuglia if you want the "crunch",along with weight retention,good frontal area expansion,and enough dependable penetration (without that disintigration on the shoulder with no part of the bullet making it to vitals,piss poor bullet performance IMHO),try a Swift Aframe or Northfork. They are much like Bitterroots. You'll turn a grizzly's insides to jelly and likely blow a hole in him as well,depending on the angle.Seen it.

Not ALL premiums expand slowly and make small wound channels.

Sitka Deer,

I'm looking at the humerus from both a brown bear and a bull elk right now. The brown bear humerus is shorter, and shaped quite a bit differently from the elk. It reflects the heavy muscle attachment consistent with being a bear.

While trying to take into account the very different shape, I can not see where the humerus of the bear is much lighter than that of the elk. This brown bear humerus is heavy but different. I do not have the lower leg bones from either animal, and as such I can not say exactly how those bones would compare.

But the upper leg bone is pretty stout for both of these animals. If a bullet hit there in either case, it might be a challenging target for a fast expanding bullet.

This is the only brown bear humerus I have, and as such it is the only one I have to compare with this elk humerus. I assume both to be typical, but possibly that is not the case.

This brown bear humerus and scapula came from near Sitka, and was not shot by me. I am at a loss to explain why what I see seems different than what you have described.

Is there that much difference between the bones of the coastal brown bear and the interior grizzly??

You have the experience with the Alaskan bears that I do not. I am willing to believe you about the leg bones in the bear, but what I have in hand does not look the way I am imagining when you describe things.

As to your second point, I fully agree with you. The ball of the humerus is not where someone should be shooting, especially not with a directly incoming bear. My point is that if things are not going right, with both bear and shooter in a dynamic situation, a shooter might have to put a bullet through that area, and if so, a stout bullet would be a big help.

Clearly that is not the first choice, nor even a likely choice, on where to hit an incoming bear. Fortunately I have never had to make that choice!

Well said BobinNH and bea175 I'll bet Phil Shoemaker doesn't carry anything in his 06 but 200 gr NPT's no matter what the game is or worry about theory and aesthetics of not using designer blowup bullets either. Hunting in G bear country for other game? use G bear bullets for whatever is needed, duh. never hunted G bears, just blacks where G bears were know to exist. Just loaded my 338 Win Mag with Fed Premiums with the 210 NPT and figured good to go for whatever. Way to many times on the fire stuff this simple is over theorized. Magnum Man

Only in my shortest dreams!