I've decided to hunt Elk and Mule Deer with the 155 Berger VLD out of my T3 308 this year. Everything was fine and dandy until yesterday when I was slowly walking down a two track to meet up with my hunting partner when I was startled by about a 3 year old Grizz crossing 88 yards ahead of me. The wind was blowing from 8 to 2 o'clock in front of me. I immediately halted all progress and decided to stand my ground, rifle off my shoulder.
AFAIK, the bear left without so much as a grunt but it was an uneasy 10 minutes waiting for my partner to arrive. He had to have winded me. Suddenly I felt the urge to be shooting an accubond or partition. What say you? Should I be shooting a different bullet in Grizz country? Time to build a 338? My partner had an -06 with 180 grain Accubonds and I certainly was more confident in his load doing the job should it need to be done.
Personally, I wouldn't hunt with any frangible bullet if there was a chance I might encounter something that would likely only be angered by being shot with one, but that's just me and my experiences.
A couple days ago, I shot an antelope at about 200 yards with a 168 Berger from a 7 mag. It is a great antelope and light game load, but if I were in grizzly country, my rifles would have accubonds or partitions.. I hear what Tanner is saying, but all the same, I would want a different bullet..
The neat thing about trying to shoot one when it means business is that the idea of being able to pick a spot to put the bullet is pretty much a false hope. You just shoot the middle of the brown blur that's coming at you with something powerful enough to matter.
The neat thing about trying to shoot one when it means business is that the idea of being able to pick a spot to put the bullet is pretty much a false hope. You just shoot the middle of the brown blur that's coming at you with something powerful enough to matter.
^^^^This^^^^ If it's a close encounter no time for picking spots your bullet will work on...
I wasn't there and you were. If you felt the urge to be shooting an Accubond or Partition I see no reason to do anything else.
Just as likely to have a light handy .308 - if I thought about I might have some 200 grain round nose Partitions in my pocket but I'm not noted for thinking about it.
I'd prob prefer a different bullet but I have the feeling that a magazine full of Bergers in it's face wouldn't have that gizz looking for more.
Be great if you have time to empty a full magazine at them. They aren't always where you see them from distance. If it's a close charge you may only have time for one shot & it had better work....
Not only because of the bear situation, but because it's often brushy, and the only possible shot at an elk may be less than ideal. Also, I believe a blood trail is a necessity in such terrain.
I'm not familiar with the Berger bullet you mention but I generally hunt grizzly every spring and have taken two grizzlies.
I used to use Partitions and then tried AFrames. They seem to retain weight well for penetration and leave a big hole. I recovered one AFrame that busted up some bone, shredded some lung and heart, punched through the far shoulder blade, and got hung up on the hide on the far side of one grizzly. It was a 275 grain 338, on recovery it weighed 269.5 grains and expanded up pretty good.
I think a regular bullet will work fine until it hits something like a grizzly shoulder and then it may or may not.
308, 3006, 338, etc this topics been beat to death. I think your 308 would do the job, for the money involved I would just elect to use a premium bullet.
Here is a picture of AFrame I recovered.
This is a picture of one at about 100 feet. The wind was blowing in our face hard so he could not smell us although he knew something was close. He lived because he was on the wrong side of our tag boundary.
Having seen quite a few brown bears fall, I can't worry about a 155 Scenar on a grizzly. The Scenar's penetration abilities are plenty good for such encounters. Other bullets may give someone more confidence, but they'll not make the grizzly any more dead.........
Two old pals have had close range grizzly encounters while hunting "something else".Both had 270's. One was charged and killed the bear at about 20 yards with a 130 Bitterroot (predecessor to things like Aframes, Northforks etc).
The other used a 130 NPT at about 30 yards.Both bears were killed very quickly.
Gaining a lot of experience on grizzlies is hard to do unless you live/guide among them.So I don't have a lot of experience with grizzlies/brown bears,having killed only two.I shot them with Nosler Partitions and Bitterroots.
If I ever kill another (doubtful)it will be with one of those two bullets.
406 - it's not a Lapua Scenar bullet he's using, it's the Berger VLD. Different critter. I've had great results on mule deer with the Berger VLD's but I don't know how comfortable I'd be with them for ticked-off grizzly...
In 2009 we were hunting the sagebrush flats for mule deer, me with a .25-06 & Bergers, my buddy with a .270 Win. Didn't find many bucks down low so we went up into the mountains and hiked in. Shortly we found grizzly sow & cub tracks... I didn't feel real good about my rifle & bullets about then. We got out with two mule deer. Boned them out and packed 'em on our backs, but with a wary eye out for the grizz.
Promised myself after that trip that if I hunted that area again, it would be with a bigger rifle and heavier Nosler Partitions.
Maybe i'm wrong in my thinking, but a VLD, that is designed to penetrate 2-3", even through bone, and then loose all hell upon the forth coming vitals in front of it, might just put a grizzly down pretty quick. If I got a grizzly hell bent on making me it's next example of intolerance, I'd want to stop it's intent PDQ.
After talking to Sitka Deer, of Anchorage, 5+ years back before I headed North of Nome for my grizzly hunt, he convinced me that a grizzly is pretty lightly boned. He's been in on numerous kills and told me how he skinned out a Brownie's scapula and that is was nearly paper thin to a point he could see the shadow of his hand through it when held up to light.
A three-foot long hole at any angle is more likely to connect with - and disconnect- something that might reduce a bear's enthusiasm. I'd sure prefer something that would be inclined to make a three-foot long hole.
There was a penetration test on here somewhere...30 cals of all sorts against 6" cow femur and then a medium to simulate tissue. Based upon that test alone, I'd not worry about Bergers being too "soft" to get through a bear skull. If you read the writings of the guy who started Buffalo Bore Ammo, he has a lot to say about putting bears down, and what is actually required from his experience. I hunt where there are bears, and I don't in the slightest feel under-gunned for bear attack with Bergers, though it does sound like there may be a bit more likelihood for you to see some in action, OP. Above all, carry what gives you confidence, as that will help you do what needs doing should the need arise.
The question is not so much whether a Berger will penetrate a skull. It's more a matter of whether it will penetrate to vitals with something other than a perfect CNS shot, while breaking down skeletal structure on the way.
IMO, the best option for a bear charge is an RPG with a tube mounted bayonet in case the bear gets danger close.
Having seen what a 200 NBT from a 340 Wtby didn't do to a middling-sized caribou at 50 yards when the bullet struck square in the stomach, I simply would not trust a rapid expander-type bullet for less than ideal bullet placement on a disgruntled bear. (That caribou lost its stomach contents through the wound, but it did not go down until another bullet was placed better.)
There was a penetration test on here somewhere...30 cals of all sorts against 6" cow femur and then a medium to simulate tissue. Based upon that test alone, I'd not worry about Bergers being too "soft" to get through a bear skull. If you read the writings of the guy who started Buffalo Bore Ammo, he has a lot to say about putting bears down, and what is actually required from his experience. I hunt where there are bears, and I don't in the slightest feel under-gunned for bear attack with Bergers, though it does sound like there may be a bit more likelihood for you to see some in action, OP. Above all, carry what gives you confidence, as that will help you do what needs doing should the need arise.
Years ago I learned to "pick my experts" when it came to things of which I knew nothing at all.... Generally this has worked out well.
So when it comes to VERY long range rifle shooting (not the common stuff like 400-500 yards) I will listen to John Burns,and use what he says works.
And when it comes to large,potentially dangerous animals like Alaskan Brown bears and grizzlies at spitting distance, I will listen to people like Phil Shoemaker and others who have BTDT numerous times,and take his advise,and use something like a Partition as a baseline,going "up" from there.
At the same time,f we think such bullets are a handicap on that 500 yard elk,we are sorta....uh....mistaken.
I saw a pic of Burns with a brown bear. Perfect shot placement on an unaware critter is a far different scenario than the OP asked about. If I had to hammer a bear that was pissed off and charging, a Berger wouldn't be my choice. I think some guys that kill deer, elk and antelope with them, trust them too much. mtmuley
I shot a running Oryx at 100 yards with a .300 Win Mag and a 168 grain Nosler Custom Competition. Hit it right on the shoulder and the result was spectacular.
The thing cartwheeled 3 times like Olga Corbett and bit the dust.
The bullet left the shoulder a mess and barely penetrated the vitals with shrapnel
Shot another Oryx with the same load the next year that dropped like a sack of potatoes. Messy as well.
I think there's something to be said for a bullet that dumps all of its energy and momentum in the animal as opposed to a bullet that may or may not expand fully, exits and deposits its last bit of energy and momentum in the dirt.
I'd feel confident with a Win Mag and 210 gr VLDs in bear country.
...but I'd rather be carrying a Maxus with a 10 round magazine loaded with slugs
The Berger may fail on a Grizzly or it may not , but why take chances with your life , use a proven bullet like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame and at the range your life with a bear charge is on the line even one of these bullets in a 308 might not save your bacon when you may have only one shot before he is gnawing on your ass
VLDs have never failed (not counting the 22 cal 80gr, it won't get through) to punch through elk shoulders for me, both near and far. Elk are heavier boned than grizzly.
I have no qualms with VLDs in grizzly county. The 180gr VLD sure put the smash on this grizzly.
This one literally went feet up when the 180gr VLD punched both shoulders.
There was a penetration test on here somewhere...30 cals of all sorts against 6" cow femur and then a medium to simulate tissue. Based upon that test alone, I'd not worry about Bergers being too "soft" to get through a bear skull. If you read the writings of the guy who started Buffalo Bore Ammo, he has a lot to say about putting bears down, and what is actually required from his experience. I hunt where there are bears, and I don't in the slightest feel under-gunned for bear attack with Bergers, though it does sound like there may be a bit more likelihood for you to see some in action, OP. Above all, carry what gives you confidence, as that will help you do what needs doing should the need arise.
Years ago I learned to "pick my experts" when it came to things of which I knew nothing at all.... Generally this has worked out well.
So when it comes to VERY long range rifle shooting (not the common stuff like 400-500 yards) I will listen to John Burns,and use what he says works.
And when it comes to large,potentially dangerous animals like Alaskan Brown bears and grizzlies at spitting distance, I will listen to people like Phil Shoemaker and others who have BTDT numerous times,and take his advise,and use something like a Partition as a baseline,going "up" from there.
At the same time,f we think such bullets are a handicap on that 500 yard elk,we are sorta....uh....mistaken.
I certainly agree with you, Bob. Even out of a 308, a 180 partition should do fine on elk to 500yds, and would fit in with the Shoemaker approach to bear bullets. I submit that there are others who have killed lots of bears too, who also add to the common knowledge. I don't believe in any one man as the sole authority on anything, so I read what I can get my hands on, and try things for myself if I want some empirical data.
Obviously, with big, dangerous beasts, there is no such thing as too dead, especially at spitting distance, but the question that was originally posted was framed around Bergers against bears, since that is what would be in the hunter's 308 already. I know the standard line here is 'use a tougher bullet, and a bigger caliber', but what specifically about the OP's setup won't do the job?
The bullet that was recovered from Riley's Kodiak bear this spring and the bone fragment it created do lend a little credence to the concept of bullets bouncing off bears' brains...
Bears are light boned, but the bone is flexible and very tough.
Recovered a 25 caliber 80gr TTSX from a big chunk of moose bone... That was after it went through the chest and it still made a convincing hole in a bone far heavier than any found in any bear.
Seen a bullet lodged against a bear's bean a time or two. A live - or recently dead- bear head is certainly a lot different than an old dried skull. The same is true of most any skeletal structure from any animal.
Seems that posting those ego-stroking hero pics kinda slowed down the Berger Bashing.
....hmmmmmm
I really don't think that anyone is bashing Bergers.
Seems they are designed and constructed the way they are for a reason,and to do what they "do" because of the design, construction,and materials from which they are made.
Bullets are tools and nothing more.
Suggesting that they might not be the best choice for dealing with a large,dangerous animal at close range is no more an indictment of them than suggesting that an Aframe or Barnes may not be the best choice for shooting herbivores at 700-1000 yards.This isn't a criticism of either...simply an acknowledgement that each "tool" has its place and application.
And since dangerous animals are only dangerous when they are very close,that's the criteria we are dealt.
At some point,logic and reason have to enter the picture....But if you have an agenda, to prove they are the "best" bullets for ALL hunting,suited to all purposes,and dismiss the notion that all tools are not the same, then reason...and logic...are lost in the din of pushing the agenda.
If they were THAT good for that purposes, we would see them in the rifles of dangerous game professionals for real dirty work....and we don't,far as I know.
But maybe things have changed? ....are Shoemaker and Sitka Deer (Art)shooting them now at brown bear? And has John Burns switched to Aframes or Barnes?
Of course I say all this in fun and for the purpose of making a point but I think folks will get my drift.
Never been charged by a grizzly but I would think that the skull would be a pretty difficult target;aside from the toughness of the bone,the brain is small,the head moving(along with the bear) and a guy would have to be highly skilled or lucky(or both) to hit the brain under the conditions. Of course I guess you take what you can get under the circumstances.
Of course you will have a bit of time to contemplate your bullet choice,or where you otherwise went wrong as he rearranges your anatomy....which according to some accounts takes him about 15-30 seconds.
At least that's the story I got from the wife of a guy who rushed 50 yards through the pucker brush when he heard his partner scream on Baranof Island.(I was on a flight back from Alaska). The pair were deer hunting and the partner was charged.The bear was gone in the time he moved that 50 yards,but had done enough damage that the partner died 5 days later from the injuries.
I wasn't there and you were. If you felt the urge to be shooting an Accubond or Partition I see no reason to do anything else.
Just as likely to have a light handy .308 - if I thought about I might have some 200 grain round nose Partitions in my pocket but I'm not noted for thinking about it.
I'm still trying to figure out how carrying some heavy loads in your pocket will help you with a grizzly charge. I guess he will politely wait for you to rack out your lighter bullets and load your 200 grain bullets from your pocket. I certainly don't understand how others stating 5 in the mag in one in the pipe is preferred. I don't think you'll get more than 2 shots off unless you are being charged from 150 yards aways. Of course I never hunted in grizzly country but these things don't seem reasonable to me.
But maybe things have changed? ....are Shoemaker and Sitka Deer (Art)shooting them now at brown bear? And has John Burns switched to Aframes or Barnes?
Seems that posting those ego-stroking hero pics kinda slowed down the Berger Bashing.
....hmmmmmm
I really don't think that anyone is bashing Bergers.
Seems they are designed and constructed the way they are for a reason,and to do what they "do" because of the design, construction,and materials from which they are made.
Bullets are tools and nothing more.
Suggesting that they might not be the best choice for dealing with a large,dangerous animal at close range is no more an indictment of them than suggesting that an Aframe or Barnes may not be the best choice for shooting herbivores at 700-1000 yards.This isn't a criticism of either...simply an acknowledgement that each "tool" has its place and application.
And since dangerous animals are only dangerous when they are very close,that's the criteria we are dealt.
At some point,logic and reason have to enter the picture....But if you have an agenda, to prove they are the "best" bullets for ALL hunting,suited to all purposes,and dismiss the notion that all tools are not the same, then reason...and logic...are lost in the din of pushing the agenda.
If they were THAT good for that purposes, we would see them in the rifles of dangerous game professionals for real dirty work....and we don't,far as I know.
But maybe things have changed? ....are Shoemaker and Sitka Deer (Art)shooting them now at brown bear? And has John Burns switched to Aframes or Barnes?
Of course I say all this in fun and for the purpose of making a point but I think folks will get my drift.
Never been charged by a grizzly but I would think that the skull would be a pretty difficult target;aside from the toughness of the bone,the brain is small,the head moving(along with the bear) and a guy would have to be highly skilled or lucky(or both) to hit the brain under the conditions. Of course I guess you take what you can get under the circumstances.
Of course you will have a bit of time to contemplate your bullet choice,or where you otherwise went wrong as he rearranges your anatomy....which according to some accounts takes him about 15-30 seconds.
At least that's the story I got from the wife of a guy who rushed 50 yards through the pucker brush when he heard his partner scream on Baranof Island.(I was on a flight back from Alaska). The pair were deer hunting and the partner was charged.The bear was gone in the time he moved that 50 yards,but had done enough damage that the partner died 5 days later from the injuries.
I guess this stuff is not just theoretical.
What does reason and logic have to do with bear defense? I agree Bob, I get on my high horse every now and then but when you stop and think about it reason and logic should take over. Especially when talking smaller calibers I think I would go with a heavy jacketed bullet, mono or partitioned type to protect my butt. JMHO and I have no experience at all with bears nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
The way I keep seeing this discussion going is "What bullet should I use to shoot a bear defensively?", when what UncleJesse was asking was more like "I have Bergers in my gun for deer and elk- will they work to stop a bear attack?". So I will ask again: what about Bergers will cause them to fail in such a case? It isn't an agenda-driven question, as it doesn't matter to me what others choose, and I already know what I choose. Certainly who uses a particular product isn't determined by a thorough logical determination, but rather a heuristic and emotional process. That is why marketing works so well, and why propaganda works so well. Humans are far from rational, and in the final analysis, what we have confidence in has far more an effect on the outcome than anything factual.
Well, this is quite the thread. I think the plain and simple fact is that I'm not comfortable with Bergers while in Grizzly country. I have no such feelings with a 150 TSX, Partition or Accubond and will be loading those for next season. For the time-being I'll pack a can of spray as well when I'm in Grizz country.
My partners and I have encountered 4 grizzlies up close this season and the bears are definitely increasing in numbers and boldness. We only have a draw-system in BC for Grizzly hunts and the liberals seem to be getting their way more and more with reduced harvest quotas due to their concerns over "trophy hunts".
When bears charge you it's very fast and you are presented with shot angles which are less than ideal. The bear is very motivated to get you. What's called for is an expanding bullet of decent caliber that digs very deep.
I've never used any Berger or ballistic tip and likely never will simply due to my interests. I don't have any inclination to shoot big game animals 7 or 8 hundred yards away. What I like is hunting deer where brown bears live and therefore what matters to me ( and frankly should matter to anyone who hunts in brown/grizzly bear country) is how will my bullet perform on a bear at ten yards just as much if not more as how it does on a deer at 300.
Interesting thread as I have been run off but not charged by Griz a few times in Cody while deer hunting. One bear ran by me so fast, almost literally knocking me down, and almost silently I would have been lucky to get a shot off if needed with my little BAR. That bear was in search of a gut pile and probably didn't care less about me. Shook me up enough that I'm loading 220 PTs this year instead of 200 Accubonds that I was considering in my 06. Scared the living crap out of me and my two partners saw the whole show and had toilet paper ready for me when I got back to the truck. They thought I was going to shoot but the bear never even looked at me. They are very fast animals. I'll be back there in two weeks.
Well, this is quite the thread. I think the plain and simple fact is that I'm not comfortable with Bergers while in Grizzly country. I have no such feelings with a 150 TSX, Partition or Accubond and will be loading those for next season. For the time-being I'll pack a can of spray as well when I'm in Grizz country.
Laughin'! I'm with you...call me CHICKEN but the number one fear I have is being eaten ALIVE! Not drowning or being burnt to death. So ya'll can pi$$ on or flame me for what I am about to post here, but don't eat me!
I've used the Burger VLD's in the 168gr out of a 7mmRM & they work AWESOME on coyotes. But when I hunt Griz areas I'm not going to bring that rifle or that bullet. I bring my 375H&H with a 260gr Nosler Partition that I know will flat thump a griz that has the want or need to cause me bodily harm!
Ya'll do what you want but I ain't gonna be eaten on...then say to my self...man I wish I brought a bigger gun!
You really need to double check the Original Poster's Post. He is hunting deer and elk and happens to be in Grizz country.
Are you suggesting he hunt deer and elk with a .375 H&H loaded with 260 grain monometals "just in case" he runs into a bear?
Like I said, for Grizz I'd rather be toting a 12ga with an extended magazine loaded with slugs. But if I'm hunting deer and elk I'm not going to be carrying that, am I?
IME, a bullet that expands rapidly like the Berger, Nosler BT, Sierra Game King or any other like them seem to have more "knock down power" or "DRT Value" or "stopping power" even on marginal hits on game.
You really need to double check the Original Poster's Post. He is hunting deer and elk and happens to be in Grizz country.
Are you suggesting he hunt deer and elk with a .375 H&H loaded with 260 grain monometals "just in case" he runs into a bear?
Like I said, for Grizz I'd rather be toting a 12ga with an extended magazine loaded with slugs. But if I'm hunting deer and elk I'm not going to be carrying that, am I?
IME, a bullet that expands rapidly like the Berger, Nosler BT, Sierra Game King or any other like them seem to have more "knock down power" or "DRT Value" or "stopping power" even on marginal hits on game.
Having used a shotgun with slugs on a Kodiak bear during a followup through the alders at very close range I have to say I am more impressed with what it did than I should have been... I would never do it again if I have any choice in the matter. It killed a wounded 8 1/2' bear but it took a lot of shooting and shucking to get it done.
You really need to double check the Original Poster's Post. He is hunting deer and elk and happens to be in Grizz country.
Are you suggesting he hunt deer and elk with a .375 H&H loaded with 260 grain monometals "just in case" he runs into a bear?
Nope, rcamglia, I'm not suggesting anything. This is what I posted: "I bring my 375H&H with a 260gr Nosler Partition that I know will flat thump a griz that has the want or need to cause me bodily harm!
Ya'll do what you want but I ain't gonna be eaten on...then say to my self...man I wish I brought a bigger gun!"
And yes that happens to be my deer and elk rifle even if I'm NOT in Griz country.
Laughin'! I'm with you...call me CHICKEN but the number one fear I have is being eaten ALIVE! Not drowning or being burnt to death. So ya'll can pi$$ on or flame me for what I am about to post here, but don't eat me!
To be honest, I've never really rolled the idea of what it might feel like to be gnawed to death but there is something within me that prefers to be on this side of the grass.
That said, there's also something within me that says "you need another rifle." 338-06 seems quite sensible.
That's exactly what I use to hunt Kodiak deer. A Mod. 70 FW 338-06 loaded with 250NP @ around 2600fps. It works great on deer with little meat damage, also works good on black bear, caribou and moose. So far I haven't had to try it on brown bear fortunately. When I shot my brownie I used my .375 H@H with 300NP. --- Mel
After talking to Sitka Deer, of Anchorage, 5+ years back before I headed North of Nome for my grizzly hunt, he convinced me that a grizzly is pretty lightly boned. He's been in on numerous kills and told me how he skinned out a Brownie's scapula and that is was nearly paper thin to a point he could see the shadow of his hand through it when held up to light.
Alan
I have a collection of bones acquired over the years. I am primarily interested in the size and shape of the humerus (upper arm, or in this case, the front leg) and scapula (shoulder blade) from various animals.
As noted above, even a brown bear scapula at its thinnest will allow some light though. The scapula is not the problem.
The humerus below the scapula however is a very heavy bone, and the extremely heavy ball at the end of the humerus that joins with the scapula is likely the most difficult resistance that a bullet might encounter. Consider that your choice of shots is not likely to be optimum under the conditions of a fast incoming blur of brown.
This head of the humerus is the size of large man's fist and is a thick and heavy bone. The humerus of a mature brown bear is perhaps a bit less heavy than that of a three year old bison. It is definitely heavier than that of a mature bull elk.
That is the bone to consider when wondering about Berger VLD bullets, and choice of cartridge perhaps. A grizzly humerus would probably be somewhat lighter than that of a brown bear, but I doubt it would likely be called light-boned by most people.
I would not trust a fast expanding bullet to defeat that heavy ball of the humerus and still have the mass and momentum to destroy vital organs and quickly kill a large animal.
I do not know about the Berger VLD as I have never used one. But I can tell you this for a fact. A 250 grain Swift A-Frame will completely destroy the head of the humerus of an adult bull elk at 13 yards when fired from a .338 Win Mag,, and will continue on to kill the elk.
That is not too much different from what might happen with an incoming grizzly and that is why I personally carry that load when hunting elk among the grizzlies.
Best of luck with your choices OP. I like that thought of the .338-06.
BTW, a buddy of mine works for the Government. They did all kinds of testing with different firearms. They shot old cars in different locations on the vehicle. Engine block, doors etc....
He said the only thing that penetrated BOTH DOORS and exited was a 12 gauge slug.
Not pushing this view, but it could change the way a decision regarding caliber/bullet/rifle is made here....
Consider that you are going to hunt the same bear that you might meet on your deer hunt. You get to choose the rifle, ammo, etc. You also get to choose the shot, will you take it or pass and wait for a better shot. What is the minimum you would choose to take if you were hunting that bear?
Now, consider the situation where you might meet said bear while deer hunting and have to shoot. You don't get to choose if you want to take the shot or not...you have to take it regardless of any other factors. What is the minimum you would choose if you were looking at a charge?
It's a best case/worst case scenario but it made me think a little. Looking at those 2 scenario's I'd be carrying a bigger rifle to hunt deer than I would to actually hunt the bear....
Haven't hunted Grizzly and don't shoot bergers but, I'd have my 308 Winchester stoked with 180 gr Partitions at 2600 fps, RL-15 will get ya there if considering it.
Not pushing this view, but it could change the way a decision regarding caliber/bullet/rifle is made here....
Consider that you are going to hunt the same bear that you might meet on your deer hunt. You get to choose the rifle, ammo, etc. You also get to choose the shot, will you take it or pass and wait for a better shot. What is the minimum you would choose to take if you were hunting that bear?
Now, consider the situation where you might meet said bear while deer hunting and have to shoot. You don't get to choose if you want to take the shot or not...you have to take it regardless of any other factors. What is the minimum you would choose if you were looking at a charge?
It's a best case/worst case scenario but it made me think a little. Looking at those 2 scenario's I'd be carrying a bigger rifle to hunt deer than I would to actually hunt the bear....
That has pretty much followed my line of thinking too JCM. If I ever have any trouble with a grizzly while elk hunting, I expect it to be under unfavorable conditions - meaning close range, incoming, and very little time to think.
If I knew all that ahead of time, I would probably be using a heavier rifle and cartridge combo.
The one thing I would want above all else however, is a bullet that will not come apart nor expand too rapidly.
Maybe then I will have a chance to survive unscathed, if luck is with me.
Most of the time, the grizzlies will let you go in peace. Or they will retreat quietly, unknown to you. Much more often than not, they will not cause you any trouble.
But the wrong bear, in the wrong place, at the wrong time, may make you glad you selected and carried an adequate bullet/cartridge combination.
After talking to Sitka Deer, of Anchorage, 5+ years back before I headed North of Nome for my grizzly hunt, he convinced me that a grizzly is pretty lightly boned. He's been in on numerous kills and told me how he skinned out a Brownie's scapula and that is was nearly paper thin to a point he could see the shadow of his hand through it when held up to light.
Alan
I have a collection of bones acquired over the years. I am primarily interested in the size and shape of the humerus (upper arm, or in this case, the front leg) and scapula (shoulder blade) from various animals.
As noted above, even a brown bear scapula at its thinnest will allow some light though. The scapula is not the problem.
The humerus below the scapula however is a very heavy bone, and the extremely heavy ball at the end of the humerus that joins with the scapula is likely the most difficult resistance that a bullet might encounter. Consider that your choice of shots is not likely to be optimum under the conditions of a fast incoming blur of brown.
This head of the humerus is the size of large man's fist and is a thick and heavy bone. The humerus of a mature brown bear is perhaps a bit less heavy than that of a three year old bison. It is definitely heavier than that of a mature bull elk.
That is the bone to consider when wondering about Berger VLD bullets, and choice of cartridge perhaps. A grizzly humerus would probably be somewhat lighter than that of a brown bear, but I doubt it would likely be called light-boned by most people.
I would not trust a fast expanding bullet to defeat that heavy ball of the humerus and still have the mass and momentum to destroy vital organs and quickly kill a large animal.
I do not know about the Berger VLD as I have never used one. But I can tell you this for a fact. A 250 grain Swift A-Frame will completely destroy the head of the humerus of an adult bull elk at 13 yards when fired from a .338 Win Mag,, and will continue on to kill the elk.
That is not too much different from what might happen with an incoming grizzly and that is why I personally carry that load when hunting elk among the grizzlies.
Best of luck with your choices OP. I like that thought of the .338-06.
WyoM70
Gotta disagree with much of what you are saying... First, all leg bones in brown bears are relatively lighter than any ungulate and by a lot. It is tough, flexible stuff, not the huge bones of other critters.
Second, why are you worrying about shooting a charging bear in the ball of the humerus? They usually come straight at ya... At least when charging...
BTW, a buddy of mine works for the Government. They did all kinds of testing with different firearms. They shot old cars in different locations on the vehicle. Engine block, doors etc....
He said the only thing that penetrated BOTH DOORS and exited was a 12 gauge slug.
I have never tried to kill a car by shooting it. I have used a bunch of slugs on critters.
I will always choose a modest rifle bullet over a slug...
If i was going to hunt in a area for deer that i had a good chance of encountering a Grizzly at point blank range and using a 30 cal, it would be my 30-06 loaded with Nosler 200 gr Partition and Hod 4831. I have nothing against Berger Bullet and use them occasionally , but just don't believe they would be the best choice for a Grizzly Charge at mere Feet , unlike the Bear Photos Burns posted , which i would bet were shot at least a 100 yards or more distant and not at point blank range with the head and chest your only target .
........ Certainly who uses a particular product isn't determined by a thorough logical determination, but rather a heuristic and emotional process. That is why marketing works so well, and why propaganda works so well. Humans are far from rational, and in the final analysis, what we have confidence in has far more an effect on the outcome than anything factual.
I don't know about any body else...but I never chose a bullet based on emotion...I picked them based on what they would do,once I had seen them perform on game animals.In other words, I didn't start shooting Partitions and Bitterroots years ago for reasons associated with advertising.
All the confidence in the world does not change thin,brittle jackets not tapered and designed for controlled expansion,weight retention,and penetration,and brittle antimony cores; all housed in C&C designs not built to withstand high impact velocities.The 150 gr 30 caliber bullet never much impressed me with tits penetration abilities....even Partitions and the ony one i would trust based on reputation is a Barnes. But I never used them or the 308 for anything but range time.
If you get that "shattered glass ball" effect at close range and the bullet fails to penetrate through whatever it is you hit,and it could very well be the difference between killing what you are shooting, and a splash wound,which is something you don't want.
Emotion doesn't have a damned thing to do with it....not for me.
rcamuglia if you want the "crunch",along with weight retention,good frontal area expansion,and enough dependable penetration (without that disintigration on the shoulder with no part of the bullet making it to vitals,piss poor bullet performance IMHO),try a Swift Aframe or Northfork. They are much like Bitterroots. You'll turn a grizzly's insides to jelly and likely blow a hole in him as well,depending on the angle.Seen it.
Not ALL premiums expand slowly and make small wound channels.
Gotta disagree with much of what you are saying... First, all leg bones in brown bears are relatively lighter than any ungulate and by a lot. It is tough, flexible stuff, not the huge bones of other critters.
Second, why are you worrying about shooting a charging bear in the ball of the humerus? They usually come straight at ya... At least when charging...
Sitka Deer,
I'm looking at the humerus from both a brown bear and a bull elk right now. The brown bear humerus is shorter, and shaped quite a bit differently from the elk. It reflects the heavy muscle attachment consistent with being a bear.
While trying to take into account the very different shape, I can not see where the humerus of the bear is much lighter than that of the elk. This brown bear humerus is heavy but different. I do not have the lower leg bones from either animal, and as such I can not say exactly how those bones would compare.
But the upper leg bone is pretty stout for both of these animals. If a bullet hit there in either case, it might be a challenging target for a fast expanding bullet.
This is the only brown bear humerus I have, and as such it is the only one I have to compare with this elk humerus. I assume both to be typical, but possibly that is not the case.
This brown bear humerus and scapula came from near Sitka, and was not shot by me. I am at a loss to explain why what I see seems different than what you have described.
Is there that much difference between the bones of the coastal brown bear and the interior grizzly??
You have the experience with the Alaskan bears that I do not. I am willing to believe you about the leg bones in the bear, but what I have in hand does not look the way I am imagining when you describe things.
As to your second point, I fully agree with you. The ball of the humerus is not where someone should be shooting, especially not with a directly incoming bear. My point is that if things are not going right, with both bear and shooter in a dynamic situation, a shooter might have to put a bullet through that area, and if so, a stout bullet would be a big help.
Clearly that is not the first choice, nor even a likely choice, on where to hit an incoming bear. Fortunately I have never had to make that choice!
Well said BobinNH and bea175 I'll bet Phil Shoemaker doesn't carry anything in his 06 but 200 gr NPT's no matter what the game is or worry about theory and aesthetics of not using designer blowup bullets either. Hunting in G bear country for other game? use G bear bullets for whatever is needed, duh. never hunted G bears, just blacks where G bears were know to exist. Just loaded my 338 Win Mag with Fed Premiums with the 210 NPT and figured good to go for whatever. Way to many times on the fire stuff this simple is over theorized. Magnum Man
In recent years Phil has used the 220-grain Partition when he's carried a .30-06 for backing up bear hunters, because he's tested a bunch of .30-caliber bullets and it penetrates deeper than any other. But he did use the 200 Partition for many years before the 220 was introduced.
So far nobody has suggested the Timothy Treadwell method of grizzly defense: Talk to them like they're your friend!
BTW, a buddy of mine works for the Government. They did all kinds of testing with different firearms. They shot old cars in different locations on the vehicle. Engine block, doors etc....
He said the only thing that penetrated BOTH DOORS and exited was a 12 gauge slug.
I have never tried to kill a car by shooting it. I have used a bunch of slugs on critters.
I will always choose a modest rifle bullet over a slug...
I don't work for the government, but I do keep a 12 at camp for problems that might arise.
This 12 ga Brenneke did not make it through both doors of a modest-sized (problem-sized) browny/grizzly. No big bones were hit. However, big muscle can have challenges of it own.
At a distance of around 30 yards, he took the slug basically broadside through the muscles of both shoulders and kept going, albeit with much less enthusiasm. He did not give up, however, before finally taking a pair of 300-320 (jacketed and cast) bullets moving at around 1550 fps from a 45 Colt carbine. That was a bear that refused to stay away from our cabin and, after about 7-8 previous attempts to scare it away non-lethally by firearm, I finally, at 2:30 in the morning, resorted to lethal force. There is an obvious difference between shooting an animal at rest and at will versus shooting one which is not at rest and which does not allow one a calculated shot. Give me something that can make a long hole.
As for carry ammo and hunting ammo. If there are potentially bears or other concerns, I'd rather carry with defense ammo in the mag. That puts me in good stead for a quick shot if needed at either possibility. If I should have the opportunity for a longer shot where the advantage of a niche bullet might be preferred, its a simple matter of changing out the mag contents. (Or just shove a long-ranger up the pipe.)
You really need to double check the Original Poster's Post. He is hunting deer and elk and happens to be in Grizz country.
Are you suggesting he hunt deer and elk with a .375 H&H loaded with 260 grain monometals "just in case" he runs into a bear?
Like I said, for Grizz I'd rather be toting a 12ga with an extended magazine loaded with slugs. But if I'm hunting deer and elk I'm not going to be carrying that, am I?
IME, a bullet that expands rapidly like the Berger, Nosler BT, Sierra Game King or any other like them seem to have more "knock down power" or "DRT Value" or "stopping power" even on marginal hits on game.
Having used a shotgun with slugs on a Kodiak bear during a followup through the alders at very close range I have to say I am more impressed with what it did than I should have been... I would never do it again if I have any choice in the matter. It killed a wounded 8 1/2' bear but it took a lot of shooting and shucking to get it done.
When I lived in Alaska the Alaska Fish And Game rated slugs as a poor choice on big bears.
I've seen these videos of guys being charged by leopards and lions and the only thing that goes through my mind is that if it were me, I'd really like to have a 12ga auto loaded with 00 buck or slugs and a BIG magazine full!
I wouldn't think big, slow, soft projectiles like those would penetrate deep enough in a big, tough critter like a Kodiac.
DF
Sorry, I missed this earlier. In full frontal mode one typical Foster type slug hit near the clavicle traveled through a couple "ribs on edge" to the diaphragm, roughly before taking a hard right turn and traveling through the bear literally at 90 degrees to original shot and exited just behind the ribs on the far side. Shot was under 10 yards in tight, tight cover. That was the really impressive slug. Had it been right up the middle the bear would have been dead much faster.
Another crossed at about 45 degrees through the chest starting off to the side and exiting well behind the opposite side leg. The bear was turning at the shot and total penetration was about 3' or so, missing bones and just plowing through lungs.
Third was side to side through the ribs and just under the hide.
IIRC a fourth was through the ribs a bit above the first and traveled down into the sternum. It stayed in, too.
OlBlue shot his bear with the 375 as he stated a few posts back and one of his 200gr NPT went in the rump, traveled full-length, exiting EXACTLY through the ear hole without any damage to the hide at all! His bear was also the first one I boned a scapula on and took pictures of a knife through the bone...
I have a tag for this coming spring in Uganik Bay again and the 375AI with 270gr X bullets is going along again...
Gotta disagree with much of what you are saying... First, all leg bones in brown bears are relatively lighter than any ungulate and by a lot. It is tough, flexible stuff, not the huge bones of other critters.
Second, why are you worrying about shooting a charging bear in the ball of the humerus? They usually come straight at ya... At least when charging...
Sitka Deer,
I'm looking at the humerus from both a brown bear and a bull elk right now. The brown bear humerus is shorter, and shaped quite a bit differently from the elk. It reflects the heavy muscle attachment consistent with being a bear.
While trying to take into account the very different shape, I can not see where the humerus of the bear is much lighter than that of the elk. This brown bear humerus is heavy but different. I do not have the lower leg bones from either animal, and as such I can not say exactly how those bones would compare.
But the upper leg bone is pretty stout for both of these animals. If a bullet hit there in either case, it might be a challenging target for a fast expanding bullet.
This is the only brown bear humerus I have, and as such it is the only one I have to compare with this elk humerus. I assume both to be typical, but possibly that is not the case.
This brown bear humerus and scapula came from near Sitka, and was not shot by me. I am at a loss to explain why what I see seems different than what you have described.
Is there that much difference between the bones of the coastal brown bear and the interior grizzly??
You have the experience with the Alaskan bears that I do not. I am willing to believe you about the leg bones in the bear, but what I have in hand does not look the way I am imagining when you describe things.
As to your second point, I fully agree with you. The ball of the humerus is not where someone should be shooting, especially not with a directly incoming bear. My point is that if things are not going right, with both bear and shooter in a dynamic situation, a shooter might have to put a bullet through that area, and if so, a stout bullet would be a big help.
Clearly that is not the first choice, nor even a likely choice, on where to hit an incoming bear. Fortunately I have never had to make that choice!
After looking at your picture of the two bones laid out I have to admit my memory and/or scaling abilities was off when comparing the bones without having them side-by-side.
I wouldn't think big, slow, soft projectiles like those would penetrate deep enough in a big, tough critter like a Kodiac.
DF
Sorry, I missed this earlier. In full frontal mode one typical Foster type slug hit near the clavicle traveled through a couple "ribs on edge" to the diaphragm, roughly before taking a hard right turn and traveling through the bear literally at 90 degrees to original shot and exited just behind the ribs on the far side. Shot was under 10 yards in tight, tight cover. That was the really impressive slug. Had it been right up the middle the bear would have been dead much faster.
Another crossed at about 45 degrees through the chest starting off to the side and exiting well behind the opposite side leg. The bear was turning at the shot and total penetration was about 3' or so, missing bones and just plowing through lungs.
Third was side to side through the ribs and just under the hide.
IIRC a fourth was through the ribs a bit above the first and traveled down into the sternum. It stayed in, too.
OlBlue shot his bear with the 375 as he stated a few posts back and one of his 200gr NPT went in the rump, traveled full-length, exiting EXACTLY through the ear hole without any damage to the hide at all! His bear was also the first one I boned a scapula on and took pictures of a knife through the bone...
I have a tag for this coming spring in Uganik Bay again and the 375AI with 270gr X bullets is going along again...
So, I gather slug penetration was pretty good, projectile just not staying on course like the rifle.
Gotta disagree with much of what you are saying... First, all leg bones in brown bears are relatively lighter than any ungulate and by a lot. It is tough, flexible stuff, not the huge bones of other critters.
Second, why are you worrying about shooting a charging bear in the ball of the humerus? They usually come straight at ya... At least when charging...
Sitka Deer,
I'm looking at the humerus from both a brown bear and a bull elk right now. The brown bear humerus is shorter, and shaped quite a bit differently from the elk. It reflects the heavy muscle attachment consistent with being a bear.
While trying to take into account the very different shape, I can not see where the humerus of the bear is much lighter than that of the elk. This brown bear humerus is heavy but different. I do not have the lower leg bones from either animal, and as such I can not say exactly how those bones would compare.
But the upper leg bone is pretty stout for both of these animals. If a bullet hit there in either case, it might be a challenging target for a fast expanding bullet.
This is the only brown bear humerus I have, and as such it is the only one I have to compare with this elk humerus. I assume both to be typical, but possibly that is not the case.
This brown bear humerus and scapula came from near Sitka, and was not shot by me. I am at a loss to explain why what I see seems different than what you have described.
Is there that much difference between the bones of the coastal brown bear and the interior grizzly??
You have the experience with the Alaskan bears that I do not. I am willing to believe you about the leg bones in the bear, but what I have in hand does not look the way I am imagining when you describe things.
As to your second point, I fully agree with you. The ball of the humerus is not where someone should be shooting, especially not with a directly incoming bear. My point is that if things are not going right, with both bear and shooter in a dynamic situation, a shooter might have to put a bullet through that area, and if so, a stout bullet would be a big help.
Clearly that is not the first choice, nor even a likely choice, on where to hit an incoming bear. Fortunately I have never had to make that choice!
After looking at your picture of the two bones laid out I have to admit my memory and/or scaling abilities was off when comparing the bones without having them side-by-side.
Just to provide the photo and info to other readers...
Here is a photo of the humerus of a Wyoming 6x6 bull elk and same bone from a Sitka brown bear of unknown age.
The elk humerus weighs in at 2 lbs.
The brown bear humerus weighs 2 lbs 2 oz. The bear humerus had been immersed intermittently in salt water for some significant period of time, so its weight may or may not be correct now.
Either one would represent a significant challenge for a fast opening bullet.
Been there, done that. If I'm hunting where there's grizz, I'll want a stout bullet.
As it's been mentioned, when it happens, it happens fast and your more in a wing shooting mode than "pickin a spot."
8 1/2 brown bear at ~ 5 yards, coming like a freight train. 300 Weatherby with a Barnes X; don't remember if it was a 165/168 or a 180 grain through the shoulder. First shot knocked her down, rolled her downhill a bit which I think saved me/us (we were standing on a small knoll). I jammed my rifle somehow, cleared it and knocked her down for good at about 50 yards. Did I mention my partner froze?
added: there is a difference between deer fosters and Brennekes. But, here comes Klik to argue that!
I can't disagree there at all....and I did expect to see that Brenneke landing: "sploosh" way out beyond that bear's far side in the Bering Sea. That said, and given the facts as I saw them, I can only think that soft tissue ain't always soft nor easy for bullet encounters. (Ironically, one of the finishers was a Sierra 300 .451 SP, and we all know that Sierras blow up - which is evidently also what happened when I shot my first bear with a 300 Gameking and a 375 H&H....but I don't know; it went out the back side and beyond. )
I wouldn't think big, slow, soft projectiles like those would penetrate deep enough in a big, tough critter like a Kodiac.
DF
Sorry, I missed this earlier. In full frontal mode one typical Foster type slug hit near the clavicle traveled through a couple "ribs on edge" to the diaphragm, roughly before taking a hard right turn and traveling through the bear literally at 90 degrees to original shot and exited just behind the ribs on the far side. Shot was under 10 yards in tight, tight cover. That was the really impressive slug. Had it been right up the middle the bear would have been dead much faster.
Another crossed at about 45 degrees through the chest starting off to the side and exiting well behind the opposite side leg. The bear was turning at the shot and total penetration was about 3' or so, missing bones and just plowing through lungs.
Third was side to side through the ribs and just under the hide.
IIRC a fourth was through the ribs a bit above the first and traveled down into the sternum. It stayed in, too.
OlBlue shot his bear with the 375 as he stated a few posts back and one of his 200gr NPT went in the rump, traveled full-length, exiting EXACTLY through the ear hole without any damage to the hide at all! His bear was also the first one I boned a scapula on and took pictures of a knife through the bone...
I have a tag for this coming spring in Uganik Bay again and the 375AI with 270gr X bullets is going along again...
So, I gather slug penetration was pretty good, projectile just not staying on course like the rifle.
DF
Yes, in this one case they worked fairly well... Far better than expected and far better than I have seen in the many other critters I have shot with slugs. That is the rub... If a slug will stay inside a broadside deer it does not give me a lot of confidence for bear use.
When I worked at Yellowstone, stood next to Park Ranger and watched him try to finish a Bull Bison with Rem factory slugs out of a 12 Gauge.
He was shooting it in the head 2 times as I recall. Told the Ranger to shoot it behind the shoulder and it killed the Bison. Tough bull it was alive after a Mack truck hit it, truck was towed away!
I am tired of beating this dead horse, but since the general consensus is that Berger bullets are insignificantly constructed and can't be depended on at high impact speed or when interacting with bone, I wanted to post a bit of the thread I referred to earlier in this thread. The results seem at odds with the consensus.
After all the discussion here denigrating Bergers, it doesn't surprise me that many think them inadequate for a defensive situation against a bear. And if UncleJesse is not confident in them, then I would agree that they are a poor choice for him.
Cow bones for testing
Results
Bullet: .308 210gr Berger Hunting VLD Penetration: 7" (7" is newspaper only. Total penetration was 16" (4" for meat at 5" of bone). All penetration measurements are only newspaper, please add 9" of bone/meat if you want total penetration.) Weight retention: 57.6gr (27.5%) Expansion diameter: .694" Impact speed: ~2800fps
In recent years Phil has used the 220-grain Partition when he's carried a .30-06 for backing up bear hunters, because he's tested a bunch of .30-caliber bullets and it penetrates deeper than any other. But he did use the 200 Partition for many years before the 220 was introduced.
So far nobody has suggested the Timothy Treadwell method of grizzly defense: Talk to them like they're your friend!
Picked up some of those 220 gr Nosler Partitions for my .30-06, and doggone, those things shoot pretty good! My "grizzly penetration test" was only a bunch of water-filled milk jugs, but the Nosler most assuredly killed a mess of them and came out looking pretty good. That's a Big .30 cal bullet. Really changes the whole look & feel of the .30-06 cartridge, compared to the pointy 165's I usually load.
Grizzly at close range. Not a comforting thought. I've hunted, camped, fished and backpacked around them quite a bit over the years and thankfully have as yet avoided a hostile bear. One was pretty grumpy though, when a bunch of us salmon fishermen woke him from his nap near the river!
BTW - I really appreciate the input from those here who have killed grizzlies. Good to learn from those who've done it vs those of us who just worry 'bout having to do it someday...
If a grizzly is charging you, how many shots do you think a guy will get off? How fast can an average hunter run the bolt?
He's gonna have a scoped rifle. The bear's gonna be in his face, fast. Not to mention the fact that most guys don't practice shooting from field positions with freshly soiled underwear.
I shot a coyote running in at me at 5 yards with a 3-9x on 9. All I could see was blurry fur.
Im thinking a large caliber handgun on your side while you have your deer/elk rifle full of .308 155 gr VLDs is the best solution to hunting in grizz country
Having seen them move, fast, I think the average hunter is going to be lucky to get one or two shots off before the grizz is on him. Depending on how far it has to travel, and how good a rifleman the hunter is.
I've carried a stout loaded .44 mag revolver in grizzly country, and hoped I never had to use it.
Quartering up my elk, high up in the Wind Rivers, we kept a wary eye on the tree line. Had been told that the bears there have learned that a rifle shot may well mean dinner. Rifle was loaded with 175 gr Nosler Partitions. I kept it handy while my pard went back to camp for the horses. Making all those trips down to the trail, each time carrying a quarter, I kept the rifle with me. Slept with the .44 revolver within reach too.
It is something those of us who travel grizzly country need to at least consider... That big "What if" question...
If a grizzly is charging you, how many shots do you think a guy will get off? How fast can an average hunter run the bolt?
He's gonna have a scoped rifle. The bear's gonna be in his face, fast. Not to mention the fact that most guys don't practice shooting from field positions with freshly soiled underwear.
I shot a coyote running in at me at 5 yards with a 3-9x on 9. All I could see was blurry fur.
Im thinking a large caliber handgun on your side while you have your deer/elk rifle full of .308 155 gr VLDs is the best solution to hunting in grizz country
I cannot begin to imagine carrying a handgun for backup when there is a rifle in my hands... Few shoot a handgun enough to be reasonably proficient. It is another thing entirely when someone actually hunts bears with the handgun... They probably have a pretty good idea how to run it.
The average guy afield with both is going to waste precious nanoseconds trying to decide between the two. Adding several pounds to the load is not going to help them get around, either. I would consider it a very bad decision in the real world to carry both.
The scope issue is just one of many reasons why I prefer fixed and/or low power scopes.
I witnessed the shooting of an interior Alaska, sow grizzly [6' approximately] with 7RM and Bergers [175 gr IIRC]......The shot was sharply down hill at 100 yards and the first bullet hit the spine in hump area briefly collapsing the bear. The bear rebounded instantly and was hit again before being put down by a 375.
During skinning of the bear, the first Berger was found against the vertebrae. The copper jacket had split lengthwise along a rifling mark and was open and nearly flat. The largest piece of the lead was very flat and thin resembling the splatter on floor below a pipe soldering effort.
I cannot begin to imagine carrying a handgun for backup when there is a rifle in my hands... The average guy afield with both is going to waste precious nanoseconds trying to decide between the two. Adding several pounds to the load is not going to help them get around, either. I would consider it a very bad decision in the real world to carry both.
The scope issue is just one of many reasons why I prefer fixed and/or low power scopes.
Exactly. And those who think they may have trouble "aiming" a scoped rifle aren't going to have an easier time "aiming" a handgun. Either is most probably going to be more of a "pointing' than "aiming" proposition.
Handguns may have a place for those who run them well and enough, but a good bullet is the simple answer, the KISS answer, in this query.
The truth is they did a study in BC some years back that concluded bear attacks happen so fast the victims have no time to react.So it does not matter what bullet you have in the rifle you will not be able to use.here is an example.
Speed of bear attack shocks Michigan hunter BY MATT MARKEY BLADE OUTDOORS EDITOR Share10 Tweet8 0 Reddit0 Email0 Gary Detwiler was doing what every good hunter would do, helping his hunting partner track an elk.
The pair made their way through a rugged section of Idaho, near Island Park in the extreme northeast corner of the wide base of the state.
With the vast wilds of Beaverhead National Forest to the north and Yellowstone National Park to the east, they were hunting in the area of the Targhee National Forest, which sits on the continental divide, near the point where Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho meet.
Henry�s Fork Caldera, created by some of the same internal fires of the earth that sculpted much of Yellowstone, is a dominant feature in the region, as is Mount Jefferson, which shoots more than 10,000 feet toward the sky. Numerous trout streams cut threads through the craggy hillsides of the area, while forests blanket those slopes and spread down to wide, grassy meadows.
This is elk country, and that is why Detwiler, a 67-year-old hunter from Michigan, was there.
But if it�s elk country, then that also means it is very likely grizzly country, and that�s how the tables turned on the two hunters.
His bow hunting partner James Kindy had shot a big, six-by-six bull elk just before dark on the third day of their hunt. Not wanting to push a wounded animal, the pair decided to return the next morning to track the elk
They picked up the blood trail upon their return to the area and moved across a fairly open area with a few clumps of small pine trees scattered about. When they approached a brushy area, Detwiler thought he saw the downed animal.
�At first glance, I figured I was looking at the bull elk,� Detwiler said. �But I didn�t see any antlers, and then a fraction of a second later, all I saw was ears and teeth. I was maybe 12-feet away and that grizzly jumped on me in a flash.�
The bear bit into his arm in the bicep area and pierced his ribs. As quickly as it struck, the grizzly returned to the cover of the group of trees.
�I don�t know if the bear was just bedded down in that area and it reacted to us being there, or whether it had picked up on the elk coming by there the night before,� Detwiler said. �All I know is there was absolutely no time to react. You read about how fast these bears are and you hear about it, but you can�t imagine what the experience is like. You think you are going to die. Their speed, for an animal that big, is really amazing.�
Grizzly bears can reach more than 800 pounds, yet have bursts of speed up to 40 miles per hour. They eat just about anything � roots, berries, grasses, insects, fish, carrion, and many mammals, from small rodents to full-size moose and elk.
After Detwiler was attacked by the grizzly, he and his hunting partner had a four-mile hike back to their truck, and then about a 20-mile drive to the nearest medical clinic, located in tiny Ashton, Idaho.
�It was bleeding, but not bad enough that I didn�t think I could make it,� said Detwiler, who has been hunting that area for nearly two decades.
After Detwiler�s wounds were cleaned and sutured, Kindy returned to the site where they had been tracking the elk, and with the help of a couple of local hunters, continued the search. They did not find the bull elk, and they were not certain if the grizzly had claimed it or had just used the area to bed down.
Wildlife officials chose not to pursue the grizzly right away, since they determined that its actions were likely defensive in nature, either to protect the elk carcass or its territory. Warning signs were posted and patrols in the area increased to let other hunters or the public become aware of the presence of a grizzly.
Detwiler, who has been bow hunting for nearly 50 years, tried to continue to hunt, but found it was too difficult to draw his bow with his arm injured. Now back at his home in Midland, Detwiler said he will have to spend some time mulling over the destination for his next bow hunting trip, given what he sees as a dangerous increase in the grizzly bear population in the Idaho-Wyoming-Montana wilderness triangle.
�There�s more grizzlies there than before � people are afraid to go outside, and they can�t hike and they can�t bike and most of them won�t risk it hunting the area,� he said.
Grizzlies are protected by federal law in the lower 48 states, where they are designated as a threatened species. Estimates put the grizzly population in the lower 48 at about 1,200, with more than 30,000 in Alaska.
�I�ll have to think about it, but I�ll probably go back since we�ve had such good success there,� said Detwiler, who has put a couple of his trophies in the record books. �I�m getting older, so I�ve let more big ones go than I�ve shot in recent years. I still like to hunt them, but it�s getting so I don�t like to shoot them as much.�
The truth is they did a study in BC some years back that concluded bear attacks happen so fast the victims have no time to react.So it does not matter what bullet you have in the rifle you will not be able to use.here is an example.
Oh good grief. Hunters have been stopping attacking animals, bears and others, with rifles for a very long time. It can be done, has been done, and will be done.
I'd imagine a fellow has to be right quick though!
The truth is they did a study in BC some years back that concluded bear attacks happen so fast the victims have no time to react.So it does not matter what bullet you have in the rifle you will not be able to use.here is an example.
Oh good grief. Hunters have been stopping attacking animals, bears and others, with rifles for a very long time. It can be done, has been done, and will be done.
I'd imagine a fellow has to be right quick though!
I would be very interested in the actual provenance for this particular study? If, done here in BC, it could be from one of the two "competing" groups currently involved in the controversy here regarding Grizzly hunting. So, assuming you have the title,ect., please post a link?
Concerning the OP's query, there is certainly a lot of opinion posted here and some seems a bit contradictory and some "facts" appear to be different in different posts.
However, since Phil Shoemaker, has often posted his opinion on bullets for bears, it seems to me that doing as he suggests and MD, whose credibility as with "BOBinNH", is simply beyond question, well, legitimate question, and going with the bullets that he uses.
I usually, by choice, hunt,hike, camp and fish alone and have done here for almost 50 years. When, I do carry a gun, I have developed "heavy for caliber" loads with NOSLER PARTITION bullets for all of my rifles, except my .220Swift. Based on some experience and the comments by those whom I respect, these work very well, are easily available and while costly, are not SO expensive that one cannot practice with some from each box to make SURE you can hit what you want to and operate your gun well.
I have Brenneke slugs for my two Benelli 12 bores, one a 14" model which is my "tent gun", as I sold my Redhawk.44M, because it is too much hassle to bother with the permits and I like to keep a short,powerful gun in my tent when sleeping. I have no illusions about these relative to my .338s, 9.3s or .375s, in performance, but, this is the best legal option I now have.
I hope Phil S. chimes in here, as he is the REAL expert and his comments on anything to do with any bears always interest me. If, he suggests a certain load for a given rifle that, IMO, is a VERY good place to start load development for your particular rifle, noting the usual caution concerning "starting" charges.
Again, IF that study IS from BC, I would like to see it, thanks.
I cannot begin to imagine carrying a handgun for backup when there is a rifle in my hands... The average guy afield with both is going to waste precious nanoseconds trying to decide between the two. Adding several pounds to the load is not going to help them get around, either. I would consider it a very bad decision in the real world to carry both.
The scope issue is just one of many reasons why I prefer fixed and/or low power scopes.
Exactly. And those who think they may have trouble "aiming" a scoped rifle aren't going to have an easier time "aiming" a handgun. Either is most probably going to be more of a "pointing' than "aiming" proposition.
Handguns may have a place for those who run them well and enough, but a good bullet is the simple answer, the KISS answer, in this query.
I bow to, or stand behind these two fine gentleman. To me, if you are carrying a rifle, packing a handgun is senseless and a lot less punch.
I witnessed the shooting of an interior Alaska, sow grizzly [6' approximately] with 7RM and Bergers [175 gr IIRC]......The shot was sharply down hill at 100 yards and the first bullet hit the spine in hump area briefly collapsing the bear. The bear rebounded instantly and was hit again before being put down by a 375.
During skinning of the bear, the first Berger was found against the vertebrae. The copper jacket had split lengthwise along a rifling mark and was open and nearly flat. The largest piece of the lead was very flat and thin resembling the splatter on floor below a pipe soldering effort.
kutenay... I'm with you, I'd like to see the actual "study" before giving it a nod.
The two peer-reviewed retrospective studies I know of comparing the success of bear defense with firearms vs pepper spray were, in my view, significantly flawed because they failed to take into account the basic differences in bear attacks on unarmed hikers/forestry workers and attacks on hunters. But there is no question that people CAN and DO defend themselves effectively with firearms at times.
I'd like to hear Phil Shoemaker's take on this. He's our resident bear-killing member, I'd like to know what he thinks. I have no comment to make on the Berger bullet for bear defense but would like to know his take.
I've not shot a charging bear, but I've been bluff-charged, and have had a lot of up-close exposure to bears over 30+ years in the course of my outdoor recreation when I lived in my native Alberta. I also did some bear-country biologist work when I was a college student. This latter job earned me a slot at a class where we shot "charging" bear targets with 12-gauge slugs... this was the same class all provincial F&G officers took, btw. [edited to correct error pointed out by Sitka Deer] We were trained to take the time to make ONE good shot, because there is likely not enough time for a second one unless you anchor the bruin with your first shot.
At that time (1975) Alberta wildlife officers carried 12-ga 870's as bear medicine. Last time I talked to a ranger on patrol in bear country, in 1996 in Peter Lougheed Provincial Park where there was a LOT of grizzly activity, he was carrying an iron-sighted 300 Win Mag. He told me they'd had some "poor outcomes" with the slug guns on grizzlies, so had upped the ante.
There is no question that as grizzly populations increase in the mountain west, the frequency of hunters getting into dangerous encounters with grizzlies has also increased. In some areas, as one other member posted earlier, grizzlies hear a rifle shot and their innate response is to think "Elk for supper!". They will and have killed hunters to claim a fresh carcass.
My take-away from all of this is that if I'm hunting ungulates in grizzly country, I would prefer to carry a rifle chambered for a cartridge that will work reliably on griz, and that rifle is going to be set up for close work but can be upped to higher power if an elk is spotted at distance. A .308 class or better rifle, topped with a 1-4X or 2-8X scope left on the lowest setting until a distance shot presents itself, would suffice. Heavy-for-caliber premium bullets are preferable; they'll work fine on elk or deer or moose too.
I would not choose to hunt alone in grizzly country, and I would definitely not field dress or pack meat alone.
As always on these bear threads, I strongly recommend Gary Shelton's books on bear behavior and defense against bear attacks. Ignorance of these magnificent animals' behavior has cost many a bear and many a hunter dearly, and ignorance is never an excuse for killing or being killed.
I witnessed the shooting of an interior Alaska, sow grizzly [6' approximately] with 7RM and Bergers [175 gr IIRC]......The shot was sharply down hill at 100 yards and the first bullet hit the spine in hump area briefly collapsing the bear. The bear rebounded instantly and was hit again before being put down by a 375.
During skinning of the bear, the first Berger was found against the vertebrae. The copper jacket had split lengthwise along a rifling mark and was open and nearly flat. The largest piece of the lead was very flat and thin resembling the splatter on floor below a pipe soldering effort.
You are free to draw your own conclusions!
I think it speaks volumes.
Again no bash on Bergers and their forte SEEMS to be accuracy, high BC,great expansion(and even penetration!) where velocity has fallen off at distance...and not a thing wrong with that IMO.
Again, a tool for a purpose.
I can relate that a guy with his blood up can run a bolt gun pretty fast in the presence of a grizzly.
I can hit a barn with a handgun if it's right in front of me.
I cannot begin to imagine carrying a handgun for backup when there is a rifle in my hands... The average guy afield with both is going to waste precious nanoseconds trying to decide between the two. Adding several pounds to the load is not going to help them get around, either. I would consider it a very bad decision in the real world to carry both.
The scope issue is just one of many reasons why I prefer fixed and/or low power scopes.
Exactly. And those who think they may have trouble "aiming" a scoped rifle aren't going to have an easier time "aiming" a handgun. Either is most probably going to be more of a "pointing' than "aiming" proposition.
Handguns may have a place for those who run them well and enough, but a good bullet is the simple answer, the KISS answer, in this query.
I bow to, or stand behind these two fine gentleman. To me, if you are carrying a rifle, packing a handgun is senseless and a lot less punch.
Bob
No way I'd be reaching for a handgun if I had a rifle...but I'm in the habit of carrying a handgun and it could be much needed in a case like this. Much needed as in if the situation got to the point where I was carrying a rifle and had to reach for the handgun, the handgun could be used to trace ownership to determine the body was mine.
Much needed as in if the situation got to the point where I was carrying a rifle and had to reach for the handgun, the handgun could be used to trace ownership to determine the body was mine.
The reference to Gary Shelton, here is both pretinent and interesting; I have had all of his books for some years, have read them all and know several of those he mentions in them. He is an American, one of scores who came here to BC, in the '60s and he is/was a "forest engineer".
His opinions represent one "polar" of the on-going and,sadly, unpleasant and all too often ignorant controversy about bears in general and Grizzlies in particular, that has raged here in BC for about 40 years. Gary, is a "resourcist" and a believer in "harvesting" nature, a very different attitude than that of many others concerned with this issue.
His advice in his books is,as he openly states, based on his interaction over the time he has been in BC, with much the same kind of "old timers" from whom I learned much of what little I know about wilderness life, bears and so on. I knew some of these "mid-coast" bushwhackers when I worked there the first time in forestry in 1969-70, and I seem to recall that Gary arrived in BC around that time and he is 2-3 years older than I am.
So, yeah, get his books, read them and see what YOU think, I find them to be excellent, although some of his opinions are not the ones I hold.
As to handguns, I realize that SOME and I think, only a FEW, guys can run them to the level needed to deal with bears. Given the OP is here in BC, it is not an option as carrying is not allowed in huntng. Also, I agree, WHY pack some 3-4 lbs. of extra weight which you will not have time to use, when packing a good rifle?
One last point here and it is that I have EVERY rifle I seriously use for hunting customized to have a 3-pos. Mod. 70 safety and single-stage trigger. I want my "muscle memory" to be attuned to ONE set of "controls" and thus not be quite as apt to fumble in the presence of a Grizzly...which, I have done and, I suspect, so have many others.
Right now, I am finishing the loading and tuning for my three, synthetic stocked Brno/CZ CRF rifles in 9,3x62, using both fixed 4x scopes and "ghost and post" irons and 286NPs at 2450-2500....should do the job, IMHO.
Some interesting comments on this thread and as some indicate, this topic is becoming ever more relevant for more and more hunters.
kutenay... I'm with you, I'd like to see the actual "study" before giving it a nod.
The two peer-reviewed retrospective studies I know of comparing the success of bear defense with firearms vs pepper spray were, in my view, significantly flawed because they failed to take into account the basic differences in bear attacks on unarmed hikers/forestry workers and attacks on hunters. But there is no question that people CAN and DO defend themselves effectively with firearms at times.
I'd like to hear Phil Shoemaker's take on this. He's our resident bear-killing member, I'd like to know what he thinks. I have no comment to make on the Berger bullet for bear defense but would like to know his take.
I've not shot a charging bear, but I've been bluff-charged, and have had a lot of up-close exposure to bears over 30+ years in the course of my outdoor recreation when I lived in my native Alberta. I also did some bear-country biologist work when I was a college student. This latter job earned me a slot at a class where we shot "charging" bear targets with 12-gauge slugs... this was the same class all provincial F&G officers took, btw. We were taught to aim at the "center of mass", which is basically the center of the chest under the chin. We were trained to take the time to make ONE good shot, because there is likely not enough time for a second one unless you anchor the bruin with your first shot.
At that time (1975) Alberta wildlife officers carried 12-ga 870's as bear medicine. Last time I talked to a ranger on patrol in bear country, in 1996 in Peter Lougheed Provincial Park where there was a LOT of grizzly activity, he was carrying an iron-sighted 300 Win Mag. He told me they'd had some "poor outcomes" with the slug guns on grizzlies, so had upped the ante.
There is no question that as grizzly populations increase in the mountain west, the frequency of hunters getting into dangerous encounters with grizzlies has also increased. In some areas, as one other member posted earlier, grizzlies hear a rifle shot and their innate response is to think "Elk for supper!". They will and have killed hunters to claim a fresh carcass.
My take-away from all of this is that if I'm hunting ungulates in grizzly country, I would prefer to carry a rifle chambered for a cartridge that will work reliably on griz, and that rifle is going to be set up for close work but can be upped to higher power if an elk is spotted at distance. A .308 class or better rifle, topped with a 1-4X or 2-8X scope left on the lowest setting until a distance shot presents itself, would suffice. Heavy-for-caliber premium bullets are preferable; they'll work fine on elk or deer or moose too.
I would not choose to hunt alone in grizzly country, and I would definitely not field dress or pack meat alone.
As always on these bear threads, I strongly recommend Gary Shelton's books on bear behavior and defense against bear attacks. Ignorance of these magnificent animals' behavior has cost many a bear and many a hunter dearly, and ignorance is never an excuse for killing or being killed.
Center of Mass on an incoming grizzly is nowhere near "under the chin". A grizzly stands 3-5' tall according to the books. Smaller bears are more likely to be the problem...
The books also say they are 7-10' long. They have very long necks. When serious they charge with heads held low.
Watch the short video for a couple of cute bears at a few different angles, especially as they walk down the road. You would have to be a Smurf to get a good view of the chest under the chin...
COM is the top of the neck and into the shoulders. BTDT.
Sitka, you've BTDT and I haven't except at that course, so I defer to your experience! The bluff charges I've experienced occurred in national parks where I had no firearm, so aiming-point never entered my mind.
Another thing to take into account is limited visibility due to thick brush. I had to kneel in order to shoot the second bear that real-charged me. Without having done so shooting him would have been more like shotgunning a rabbit running through the goldenrod. As it was, I was low enough to really see him coming and I shot as soon as I got a good clear view of him at 12 yards. A 300 gr Nosler from my .375 square in the chest adjusted his thinking about me. He flipped backward, fell, and then tried to run off. I emptied the gun into him, reloaded, and shot some more, sparing myself a tracking job. There was outstanding penetration all around. One bullet from a going away shot was recovered. It broke the pelvis, drove the rest of the way forward, and was found lodged against a neck vertebrae perfectly expanded.
Hitting a grumpy, motivated bear at spitting distance with a high velocity, frangible, limited penetration bullet and expecting success is delusional to me.
Two are near-pristine examples of my favourite rifle, the superb and rare Brno ZG-47, made between 1956 and 1962, in total numbers of about 21,000. These, are factory 9.3x62s and they are hard to find, about the same price as P-64-70s and I just LIKE them!
I had one of those fancy little Kimber of Oregon, 82C-.22LR rifles for several years and it was just taking up space in one of my safes. I advertised it for sale or trade and a retired "CanForce" chap from "Cool Pool" offered me his minty CZ-550 in 9,3; I wanted a "working" 9,3 as my other one is a pretty nice original Type B, "Obie" and so did the deal.
I then collected divers parts, had some very good guys customize it and finally took possession last weekend. I WAS going back to bush work for a friend when all of this started, but, in March, 2010, my lady was taken ill and that has kept me home and permanently retired since that time.
So, yeah, I have a FEW more guns than I could "get by" with, but, hey, this IS a gun site, eh!
Anyway, I used to work for Alberta Environment, not F&G, the AFS and alone in the weeds for extended periods. So, maybe Phil S. will post here and give us his thoughts.
I would be very interested in the actual provenance for this particular study? If, done here in BC, it could be from one of the two "competing" groups currently involved in the controversy here regarding Grizzly hunting. So, assuming you have the title,ect., please post a link?
Concerning the OP's query, there is certainly a lot of opinion posted here and some seems a bit contradictory and some "facts" appear to be different in different posts.
However, since Phil Shoemaker, has often posted his opinion on bullets for bears, it seems to me that doing as he suggests and MD, whose credibility as with "BOBinNH", is simply beyond question, well, legitimate question, and going with the bullets that he uses.
I usually, by choice, hunt,hike, camp and fish alone and have done here for almost 50 years. When, I do carry a gun, I have developed "heavy for caliber" loads with NOSLER PARTITION bullets for all of my rifles, except my .220Swift. Based on some experience and the comments by those whom I respect, these work very well, are easily available and while costly, are not SO expensive that one cannot practice with some from each box to make SURE you can hit what you want to and operate your gun well.
I have Brenneke slugs for my two Benelli 12 bores, one a 14" model which is my "tent gun", as I sold my Redhawk.44M, because it is too much hassle to bother with the permits and I like to keep a short,powerful gun in my tent when sleeping. I have no illusions about these relative to my .338s, 9.3s or .375s, in performance, but, this is the best legal option I now have.
I hope Phil S. chimes in here, as he is the REAL expert and his comments on anything to do with any bears always interest me. If, he suggests a certain load for a given rifle that, IMO, is a VERY good place to start load development for your particular rifle, noting the usual caution concerning "starting" charges.
Again, IF that study IS from BC, I would like to see it, thanks.
Bear Attacks: Their Causes and Avoidance ,I believe it is in this Book.No link you will have to buy it.
I thought that might be it; I knew the author and the partner in his "hippy" farm in my home region of BC, was on the first foresty crew I was assistant boss of, 1969.
I have the book, read it and strongly disagreed with some of his opinions, still do. I like him, but, he definitely has an agenda and one that is not always realistic, IMHO.
The issue is that he is NOT a "bushman" and while a decent, pleasant and sincere person, his "creds" to me are NOT quite the same as, for example, Phil Shoemaker.
I have no experience so have no opinion, but have found the thread interesting. I did run across this test conducted by the Alaska Game and Fish Dept several years back which is informative.
Nutshell, they concluded a 375 mag to be the most effective round for large bear defense if one could stand the recoil. Larger guns offered little or no advantage.
A 30-06 or 300 mag loaded with 220 gr Partitions tied for the 2nd deepest penetration. Outperforming 338 mag, 350 mags, 444, 45-70, and 12 ga slugs among others tested. They concluded that for most people a heavy loaded 30-06 was probably as good as it gets when recoil is factored in.
This was before the Barnes and other copper bullets, so it is hard to say how that would have changed things. If at all.
Seriously? Do you want me to find, scan, and post the pics of moose and bears killed by 223s and FMJs?
As some have said when arguing/choosing bullets for elk or moose hunting with a 243 or whatever, the critical three things are: placement, placement, placement. Anyone who has ever dealt with bears or other dangerous game in situations other than selective shooting (hunting), bullet placement is very often not even close to ideal. Dead bears often have quite a few holes in them; that doesn't necessarily mean they are especially difficult to kill - as long as you can get the first shot in there perfectly.
It may actually be easier to knock the stuffing out of a bear than a moose........if you hit them right the first time. Rarely see a moose try to turn things into a rodeo even when hit a bit less than ideally; can't really say the same for bears.
When using burgers for bear defense, one need not be too picky about which specific burger to take. They all work well. However, I do use the White Castles when I can get them because they are smaller and lighter in weight (you can carry more units), and I am much less tempted to eat them while hunting than, say, quarter-pounders or butter burgers. In testing, bears showed a slight preference for whoppers, probably because of the burnt smell and all the mayo slathered mercylessly on both sides of the bun. One other advantage of whoppers is there is no chance they will be eaten in camp by the hunter or his partners.
The hard part of the burger defense is laying them out sequentially during the chase scene. There should be 10 feet of ground between them to slow the bear sufficiently, but in testing, most hunters just flopped the whole bag out in one pile at the start of the chase due to adrenaline and fear. One other mistake frequently made by hunters is stopping within the same zip code of the last burger drop to remove those dirty shorts, and then staying on the spot to puke before proceeding to the bar. While it may be socially unacceptable to enter a bar with dirty shorts and having the first 6 rounds before going to the can to change, it just might save your life. The trick is to inform the fellas at the bar that you are in bear retreat. Then they will understand the stench and cut you some slack. Sometimes the more understanding and experienced fellas will draw their own weapons and watch your back as you go to the can to change to make sure the bear didn't track you all the way to the bar. That is a rare occurrence, but there are at least two documented cases.
Thanks. Mine don't garner page after page of hilarious replies quite like, say, the Pubah, but it's the best I got. My boss is one of the very few that appreciate my sense of humor, thank goodness. We're both gearhead/egghead/electronic types. I just happen to groove on rifles.
The fmj comment got me thinking...a dab of superglue filling the nose of a berger ought to get it to act like a fmj. Or you could scratch an X on the bottom of it and it will act like a barnes.
Personally, I wouldn't hunt with any frangible bullet if there was a chance I might encounter something that would likely only be angered by being shot with one, but that's just me and my experiences.
There is your answer or carry a big bore revolver!
I will chirp in here. I have been around many, many bears: Black, Brown, and Griz (haven't encountered a Polar or Growler yet). A Couple of these events have been at 10 yards!
I have also worked as a paramedic and have treated more than a handful of folk who were chewed on.
That being said, I have not been in a situation where I had to defend myself against a bear (not to say that others haven't; indeed I know of a few). It has been my experience that if the bear knows you are there, or if you talk at the bear if they don't, they will very expiditiously depart from your presence! Now, if they don't have a good way out, that may be right over the top of you!
If, perhaps you would need to defend yourself from a charging bear, it is doubtful that anything short of a 1 oz. 12ga. Brenake Slug will slow or stop the bear. You may kill it alright, but I am reminded of the quote on the film "Mountain Men" from the character Hatchet Jack... "this here Hawkin' kilt the bar that kilt me".
Be aware of your surroundings, be willing to back away from a situation, don't freak out if you see a bear and things will likely go well with you. Good luck.
The big bears are the kind of beasts I do not wanna play dik dik with inferior bullets.
Swift, northfoks, partitions, ETC....
Going on a black bear hunt in 2 weeks and I'm taking a .375 H&H with 300gr Np's,my wife said "That's to big and will tear up the hide" my reply was "Cheaper to sew up the bear's hide rather than mine."
There are two (at least) major misconceptions when it comes to guns in general, perhaps rifles specifically; one is that a large case somehow equates with majorly explosive results, the other is that heavy recoil on the back end will somehow translate into massive knockdown power. I suspect you wife was so influenced.
Bea, you watched too much Tarzan like me growing up
OP - if ME, in heavy Grizz territory, I'd want a Partition or Barnes in chamber, of something very proven over time.
Cup cores can work, I'd prefer a bonded if so. A diff exists in HUNTING bear vs. concerns about an up close encounter. A 44-475 cal handgun with heavy casts will drive deaper than a BergerBomb but I'd prefer a rifle if I had time to get off a decent shot, vs. a handgun.
I worked with a South African who told me that a long-heavy bullet at 2400fps was a lightning bolt on plains game, looks like it does okay on big bears, whoudda thunk it?
I have worked up loads for two of my four "Keeper" 9,3x62 rifles, based on JB's published and posted data, using the 286 NP and in my first of the pair I feel VERY lucky to own, Brno ZG-47, original 9,3s, that load puts the 286 Horn.IL to the same POI at 100M as it does the NPs.
My chrono is a little "fast". I think, but, I am averaging 2400+ fps-mv., all of my rifles wear the 60mm Euro. barrels and this seems ideal for any uses I will ever have.
I have a newly and VERY nicely done,"custom" CZ-550, original AHR pattern stock, their safety/trigger, an old Lyman banded ramp holding a Marble's Sourdough and a Recknagel "peep". I have a Zeiss 4x Conquest for it, just need rings other than Talleys, which are fine on ZGs with these same scopes, but, that "FN style" handle on the CZs won't let the bolt move as it must.
So, once I have THAT little detail sorted, I should be able to load some of the Barnes bullets shown in Phil's photo as I have gobs of the "Privi" brass and want to play with it a bit.
What were charging bears shot with and stopped prior to 1985, the year the TSX was invented?
Quote
Setting aside the �who is acting ethically� question for a moment the Barnes� bone in gelatin test is meant to show terminal performance on impact with bone and tissue. Barnes specializes in deep penetration and high weight retention bullets. This is something they have been doing for a long time. They don�t want to consider that there are other ways hunting bullets can be successful. Instead of evolving, Barnes will stay focused on convincing hunters that their way is the best and only way hunting bullets should work. It is our position at Berger that an enhanced alternative option to this type of bullet is a bullet that penetrates the first inches of tissue and bone and then dumps its energy through fragmentation into the vital area of the animal. Barnes� tests prove that their bullets still work the same as they always have and that our bullets perform exactly as we describe. You can clearly see from Barnes� images of their bone in ballistic gelatin that the Berger Hunting VLD penetrates through bone and then fragments into the area of the animal�s vital organs. This action cuts through tissue (internal organs) and transfers the bullets energy as this fragmentation occurs. This transfer of energy produces tremendous hydrostatic shock (much more so than a lower BC bullet that arrives on target with a reduced velocity). When the hydrostatic shock and the torn tissue (from the fragments) combine it creates a consistently lethal and larger wound cavity deep inside the animal�s vital organs area. The extensive tissue and organ destruction along with higher levels of energy dumped into the internal tissue usually puts the animal immediately into shock which drops them in their tracks. They quickly succumb to blood pressure loss and/or multiple organ failure. Those animals that manage to stay on their feet after impact from a Berger Hunting VLD will not last long with this amount of internal destruction. This is why we say that �They won�t run away from a Berger.� Some might call this slogan marketing hype but it is in fact a brief description of the actual results you can depend on when using a Berger Hunting VLD.
A friend of mine guided a guy on an antelope hunt. He was shooting a 300 WSM with 180 Barnes. They found a monster buck, snuck in ant shot it at 200 yards. Massive blood spot on the chest right behind the shoulder as it RAN off. It kept going.
Worked in on it again. It was grazing as if nothing had happened. Shot it again at 250 and it SPRINTED off like a [bleep]' race horse. They couldn't keep up with it. Went home for the night.
Came back the next day to look for it. Located it. It was GRAZING again. Couldn't get close as it knew the jig was up. Took a Hail Mary at 1100. Hunt over.
Came back the next week and recovered the head/ horns with game and fish permission as well as the landowner. Horns were like baseball bats.
I'm sure someone other than JohnBurns has smoked a grizz with Bergers in a dangerous sitch with good results.
What were charging bears shot with and stopped prior to 1985, the year the TSX was invented?
Partitions have always been highly regarded by many/most around big bears. Obviously, Core-lokts and a whole lot of other "less superior" options have been used with varying degrees of success.
I guess I've always figured bear defense might mean a lot more than a freight-train charge. There could easily be two or more people in a bear defense situation, and, while I certainly don't hope to ever have to shoot a bear that is heading toward or chewing on another person, I prefer to know that a bullet has a decent chance of working reasonably well from any angle on the animal. That's a whole lot different than hunting bears, though even there, it's still not a bad policy. There are better bullets than even larger caliber and weight Interlocks, Matchkings, and Core-lokts for big bear hunting. It's not that they can't; but even a 10 round mag of 55 grainers out of a Mini-14 "can", and have. There are plenty of better options that don't help you screw the pooch, "help" that most folks aren't very eager to wager with.
What were charging bears shot with and stopped prior to 1985, the year the TSX was invented?
I guess they were using heavy soft points....things like WW Power Points(in 375 caliber these were actually made with bronze jackets I was told)which were nicely built and even though of C&C construction did a good job both here and in Africa. The WW load was a favorite of Finn Aagard in his 375.There were also heavyy Corelokts,and Hornady's, etc.
Or they scrounged Nosler Partitions,which for awhile were not made in heavy calibers when Nosler went from the screw machine design to impact extrusion.The nuttier among us bought and traded Bitterroots,which were as scarce as hens teeth and as expensive as high grade cocaine,but "worked" very well,and would be as good as anything in its class if made today.There was not much else,as the bullet scene was not what it is now.
I remember a couple of African pro's visiting the East Coast who almost fainted when they found out a friend and I had a stash of about 700 screw machine 270 and 300 gr Partitions in 375;offered us the equivilent of Vegas hookers for a portion of the stash We used those bullets in Alaska for brown bear and some elk hunting;they worked splendidly.
This left a huge void in the market place for "premium"bullets and is what gave rise to things like the Bitterroots, the Aframe,Jack Carter's TBBC,and the X monos. There was a real need for all of them,as high velocity,bullet fragmentation and insufficient penetration had left a lot of hunters using high velocity cartridges "wanting".
I understand the need for expansion and penetration in a bullet to reliably kill soft skinned BG; but have never been much of a fan of excessive fragmentation and blowing innards to atoms as a way of killing them reliably on the spot(DRT's?).Nor do I believe in vague theories about "hydrostatic shock"...the term is far too vague and the results inconsistent.
Reason is IME, it doesn't always work. I have seen animals with innards blown to shreds into red goo from soft tissue hits stay on their feet and travel some distance before expiring. The most reliable means to DRT's involve simultaneously breaking bone essential to locomotion and damaging vital organs at the same time.I notice even John Burns is putting Bregers on bone to get the desired results at distance.
This sort of thing takes a bullet of good construction that also expands,yet has some means of retaining weight to maintain forward momentum under the stress of high velocity impact without disintegrating because a bullet that stays together has a much better chance of penetrating deeply than one that is being torn to shreds enroute. Not as important as distance increases but at high impact velocity I will put my money on something of tough construction.
I can understand how a Berger can be a very good long range bullet, because its retained velocity and fragile construction allows the expansion we need and the extra weight allows for penetration.By sayin all this i am not dumping on Bergers BTW;but I don't think those gaping exit holes we see them make sometimes are the result of flying particles of bullet material; I think they are the result of the cavitation resulting from a high velocity projectile and an expanded frontal area...those holes are not made from little pieces of bullets,which no doubt contribute to the goo but don't cause those parge exits....at least that's what I think.
As kids, we understood things intuitively about elementary physics....we threw soft snowballs at friends during snowball fights, that shattered harmlessly and avoided chunks of ice for fear of actually hurting them..... If we wanted to bust windshields on abandoned cars at the junk yard, we did not pick up a handful of gravel...we grabbed a rock;sometimes a big rock... and we threw it hard, knowing it was harder than the windshield,would not shatter,come apart, and had the momentum and structural integrity to penetrate through.
But somehw as adults, we grow "smarter" ,we forget these things when we pick up a BG rifle that slings projectiles at 2500-3200 fps and shoot them into animals...we substitute odd notions of "hydrostatic shock",and "energy transfer" that not even physicians and engineers can describe and agree on.
For most BG hunting,and especially incoming bears, I will take the "rocks" and save the thin jacketed stuff for real LR, where they start to behave more like "rocks"....
What were charging bears shot with and stopped prior to 1985, the year the TSX was invented?
Quote
Setting aside the �who is acting ethically� question for a moment the Barnes� bone in gelatin test is meant to show terminal performance on impact with bone and tissue. Barnes specializes in deep penetration and high weight retention bullets. This is something they have been doing for a long time. They don�t want to consider that there are other ways hunting bullets can be successful. Instead of evolving, Barnes will stay focused on convincing hunters that their way is the best and only way hunting bullets should work. It is our position at Berger that an enhanced alternative option to this type of bullet is a bullet that penetrates the first inches of tissue and bone and then dumps its energy through fragmentation into the vital area of the animal. Barnes� tests prove that their bullets still work the same as they always have and that our bullets perform exactly as we describe. You can clearly see from Barnes� images of their bone in ballistic gelatin that the Berger Hunting VLD penetrates through bone and then fragments into the area of the animal�s vital organs. This action cuts through tissue (internal organs) and transfers the bullets energy as this fragmentation occurs. This transfer of energy produces tremendous hydrostatic shock (much more so than a lower BC bullet that arrives on target with a reduced velocity). When the hydrostatic shock and the torn tissue (from the fragments) combine it creates a consistently lethal and larger wound cavity deep inside the animal�s vital organs area. The extensive tissue and organ destruction along with higher levels of energy dumped into the internal tissue usually puts the animal immediately into shock which drops them in their tracks. They quickly succumb to blood pressure loss and/or multiple organ failure. Those animals that manage to stay on their feet after impact from a Berger Hunting VLD will not last long with this amount of internal destruction. This is why we say that �They won�t run away from a Berger.� Some might call this slogan marketing hype but it is in fact a brief description of the actual results you can depend on when using a Berger Hunting VLD.
A friend of mine guided a guy on an antelope hunt. He was shooting a 300 WSM with 180 Barnes. They found a monster buck, snuck in ant shot it at 200 yards. Massive blood spot on the chest right behind the shoulder as it RAN off. It kept going.
Worked in on it again. It was grazing as if nothing had happened. Shot it again at 250 and it SPRINTED off like a [bleep]' race horse. They couldn't keep up with it. Went home for the night.
Came back the next day to look for it. Located it. It was GRAZING again. Couldn't get close as it knew the jig was up. Took a Hail Mary at 1100. Hunt over.
Came back the next week and recovered the head/ horns with game and fish permission as well as the landowner. Horns were like baseball bats.
I'm sure someone other than JohnBurns has smoked a grizz with Bergers in a dangerous sitch with good results.
[bleep] me, come on man get real..
Two of my B&C pronghorn, both shot with barnes..If it makes you feel any better i'm certain if I was using bergers on those hunts the picture would look exactly the same, hell if i used a standard WW2 ball round out of a garand the picture would be the same..save the bullshit stories.
What were charging bears shot with and stopped prior to 1985, the year the TSX was invented?
I guess they were using heavy soft points....things like WW Power Points(in 375 caliber these were actually made with bronze jackets I was told)which were nicely built and even though of C&C construction did a good job both here and in Africa. The WW load was a favorite of Finn Aagard in his 375.There were also heavyy Corelokts,and Hornady's, etc.
Or they scrounged Nosler Partitions,which for awhile were not made in heavy calibers when Nosler went from the screw machine design to impact extrusion.The nuttier among us bought and traded Bitterroots,which were as scarce as hens teeth and as expensive as high grade cocaine,but "worked" very well,and would be as good as anything in its class if made today.There was not much else,as the bullet scene was not what it is now.
I remember a couple of African pro's visiting the East Coast who almost fainted when they found out a friend and I had a stash of about 700 screw machine 270 and 300 gr Partitions in 375;offered us the equivilent of Vegas hookers for a portion of the stash We used those bullets in Alaska for brown bear and some elk hunting;they worked splendidly.
This left a huge void in the market place for "premium"bullets and is what gave rise to things like the Bitterroots, the Aframe,Jack Carter's TBBC,and the X monos. There was a real need for all of them,as high velocity,bullet fragmentation and insufficient penetration had left a lot of hunters using high velocity cartridges "wanting".
I understand the need for expansion and penetration in a bullet to reliably kill soft skinned BG; but have never been much of a fan of excessive fragmentation and blowing innards to atoms as a way of killing them reliably on the spot(DRT's?).Nor do I believe in vague theories about "hydrostatic shock"...the term is far too vague and the results inconsistent.
Reason is IME, it doesn't always work. I have seen animals with innards blown to shreds into red goo from soft tissue hits stay on their feet and travel some distance before expiring. The most reliable means to DRT's involve simultaneously breaking bone essential to locomotion and damaging vital organs at the same time.I notice even John Burns is putting Bregers on bone to get the desired results at distance.
This sort of thing takes a bullet of good construction that also expands,yet has some means of retaining weight to maintain forward momentum under the stress of high velocity impact without disintegrating because a bullet that stays together has a much better chance of penetrating deeply than one that is being torn to shreds enroute. Not as important as distance increases but at high impact velocity I will put my money on something of tough construction.
I can understand how a Berger can be a very good long range bullet, because its retained velocity and fragile construction.
As kids, we understood things intuitively about elementary physics....we threw soft snowballs at friends during snowball fights, that shattered harmlessly and avoided chunks of ice for fear of actually hurting them..... If we wanted to bust windshields on abandoned cars at the junk yard, we did not pick up a handful of gravel...we grabbed a rock;sometimes a big rock... and we threw it hard, knowing it was harder than the windshield,would not shatter,come apart, and had the momentum and structural integrity to penetrate through.
But somehw as adults and we grow "smarter" ,we forget these things when we pick up a BG rifle that slings projectiles at 2500-3200 fps and shoot them into animals...we substitute odd notions of "hydrostatic shock",and "energy transfer" that not even physicians and engineers can describe and agree on.
For most BG hunting,and especially incoming bears, I will take the "rocks" and save the thin jacketed stuff for real LR, where they start to behave more like "rocks"....
Nicely written, Bob. And, it was tactfully presented, as well as being practically put.
Being that I'm one who far too often sees hyper-velocity calibers being used on heavy game and thereby, far to often watching as fragile bullets go to pieces on heavy bone before ever penetrating vital tissue, it's nice to read some practical logic in reference to bullet construction.
While the advent of newly engineered bullet construction the past decade has been a boon for unique manufacturers, it hasn't necessarily been an aid for professionals who are in the field and who are mandated to follow utmost safety protocol.
There's nothing more terrifying than following wounded dangerous game into heavy cover.
I am willing to wager that rcumuglia has never stopped a charging bear with any bullet much less a Berger. I'll even wager that he has never ever shot a larger grizz/brown bear. The only bear guide with vast big bear experience that has posted in this thread is 458win (Phil Shoemaher) and as l can see Bergers are not a bullet that he would choose for protection up close and personal on big bears and neither would I.
I'm curious as to what question we're trying to hash out here. UncleJesse isn't hunting bears, so we aren't addressing his question when we talk of the best bullets for hunting bears. He hasn't posted much here, and the question remains as to why he picked the lightest hunting VLD in 30 cal in the first place. In my reasoning, their use sort of negates the reasons for using Berger bullets anyway. It is the long-and-heavies that carry their energy the best at distance, and with their lower BC, the 155's lose their momentum rather quickly. As previously stated, I have no problem with the defending myself against bears if Bergers are what I have in my gun, but they wouldn't be my 1st choice, and the lightest weight in the caliber would be my last choice. Still, there are plenty of accounts of people getting excellent results with those 155's on huge animals at close range.
Bob, good post. I like it when you 'spell out' your view.
Phil, thank you for chiming in. Your input has the weight of a freighter in this regard.
Phil, thank you for chiming in. Your input has the weight of a freighter in this regard.
Are you calling me a big bore ?
Like everyone here I have opinions and most have been developed over the years by experience.
I do know that there are no bad bullets - but there certainly are wrong applications for each of them. Berger makes some fantastic bullets for accuracy and in certain situations they work well on game. But no projectile does all things well. You are not going to brain a bull elephant with a Berger and a Woodleigh solid is not likely to win any Olympic events or vaporize a prairie rat. I have posted this photo before on discussion like this before but the same arguments keep popping up. It is a bear that one of my clients wounded and that I had to follow up in very thick pucker brush. I was carrying my 30-06 stuffed with 220 gr Nosler partitions at the time and knew from experience that they would penetrate every bit as well as my 375 or 458 ( which I was wishing I had when he charged ). There is no way that I would have even attempted following it up if I had been using Bergers !!! And if I had I probably would not have survived.
Phil, thank you for chiming in. Your input has the weight of a freighter in this regard.
Are you calling me a big bore ?
Like everyone here I have opinions and most have been developed over the years by experience.
I do know that there are no bad bullets - but there certainly are wrong applications for each of them. Berger makes some fantastic bullets for accuracy and in certain situations they work well on game. But no projectile does all things well. You are not going to brain a bull elephant with a Berger and a Woodleigh solid is not likely to win any Olympic events or vaporize a prairie rat. I have posted this photo before on discussion like this before but the same arguments keep popping up. It is a bear that one of my clients wounded and that I had to follow up in very thick pucker brush. I was carrying my 30-06 stuffed with 220 gr Nosler partitions at the time and knew from experience that they would penetrate every bit as well as my 375 or 458 ( which I was wishing I had when he charged ). There is no way that I would have even attempted following it up if I had been using Bergers !!! And if I had I probably would not have survived.
A wise person chooses the best tool for the job.
'Big Bore Phil' could mean all sorts of things, some of them being compliments. Looking at you with that wee rifle over that huge bear, I'm thinking we should call you 2-Bore Phil.
What were charging bears shot with and stopped prior to 1985, the year the TSX was invented?
Quote
Setting aside the �who is acting ethically� question for a moment the Barnes� bone in gelatin test is meant to show terminal performance on impact with bone and tissue. Barnes specializes in deep penetration and high weight retention bullets. This is something they have been doing for a long time. They don�t want to consider that there are other ways hunting bullets can be successful. Instead of evolving, Barnes will stay focused on convincing hunters that their way is the best and only way hunting bullets should work. It is our position at Berger that an enhanced alternative option to this type of bullet is a bullet that penetrates the first inches of tissue and bone and then dumps its energy through fragmentation into the vital area of the animal. Barnes� tests prove that their bullets still work the same as they always have and that our bullets perform exactly as we describe. You can clearly see from Barnes� images of their bone in ballistic gelatin that the Berger Hunting VLD penetrates through bone and then fragments into the area of the animal�s vital organs. This action cuts through tissue (internal organs) and transfers the bullets energy as this fragmentation occurs. This transfer of energy produces tremendous hydrostatic shock (much more so than a lower BC bullet that arrives on target with a reduced velocity). When the hydrostatic shock and the torn tissue (from the fragments) combine it creates a consistently lethal and larger wound cavity deep inside the animal�s vital organs area. The extensive tissue and organ destruction along with higher levels of energy dumped into the internal tissue usually puts the animal immediately into shock which drops them in their tracks. They quickly succumb to blood pressure loss and/or multiple organ failure. Those animals that manage to stay on their feet after impact from a Berger Hunting VLD will not last long with this amount of internal destruction. This is why we say that �They won�t run away from a Berger.� Some might call this slogan marketing hype but it is in fact a brief description of the actual results you can depend on when using a Berger Hunting VLD.
A friend of mine guided a guy on an antelope hunt. He was shooting a 300 WSM with 180 Barnes. They found a monster buck, snuck in ant shot it at 200 yards. Massive blood spot on the chest right behind the shoulder as it RAN off. It kept going.
Worked in on it again. It was grazing as if nothing had happened. Shot it again at 250 and it SPRINTED off like a [bleep]' race horse. They couldn't keep up with it. Went home for the night.
Came back the next day to look for it. Located it. It was GRAZING again. Couldn't get close as it knew the jig was up. Took a Hail Mary at 1100. Hunt over.
Came back the next week and recovered the head/ horns with game and fish permission as well as the landowner. Horns were like baseball bats.
I'm sure someone other than JohnBurns has smoked a grizz with Bergers in a dangerous sitch with good results.
I've seen no proof of Burns shooting a bear in a dangerous situation.
Also, it doesn't sound like a post mortem was done on the antelope? "A huge blood spot behind the shoulder" is pretty freaking vague, and vitals were obviously not hit or extremely undamaged if the buck was grazing soon after. Sounds like a case of terrible shooting and even worse guiding since they continued to chase, and the guide let the hunter take an 1100 yard "hail mary".
What were charging bears shot with and stopped prior to 1985, the year the TSX was invented?
I'm sure someone other than JohnBurns has smoked a grizz with Bergers in a dangerous sitch with good results.
Rick,
Funny you should ask that in the �Ask the Gunwriters� forum. One rather famous early proponent of the Hollow Point Boat Tail was Outdoor Life writer Jack O�Connor. In fact the bullet that really �made� the .270 Win was the Western 130gr open tip boat tail.
In his last book O�Connor wrote that Hosea Sarber, whom he called �one of the most experienced brown bear hunters that ever lived�, considered the Western bullet to be his favorite brown bear bullet.
In the chapter titled �The Big-Bore Boys� Jack repeated mentions this bullet as a very reliable game killer in modest rifles.
In 1943 Jack went on a pack trip to the Yukon and killed a big grizzly that he wrote �scared the hell out of me�. He used the .270 Win with the 130gr bullet.
So while not a Berger, per say, it was a cup and core hollow point boat tail. Same construction as the modern VLD. No bonding, no partitions, no mono construction.
Funny how what is new turns out to be not so new.
Also noted in this thread is a lot of pictures of Brown Bear skulls and bones. I went back and re-read the OP and he was asking about Grizzlies that live in deer and elk country.
Not sure if posted pictures qualify as hyperbole but Brown Bears from SE Alaska and interior AK/ lower 48 Grizzlies Bears ain�t the same sized creature. Any bullet sufficient for general elk hunting is more than sufficient for face shooting an unwounded charging GRIZZLY bear.
Originally Posted by 458Win
Are you calling me a big bore ?
Like everyone here I have opinions and most have been developed over the years by experience.
I do know that there are no bad bullets - but there certainly are wrong applications for each of them. Berger makes some fantastic bullets for accuracy and in certain situations they work well on game. But no projectile does all things well. You are not going to brain a bull elephant with a Berger and a Woodleigh solid is not likely to win any Olympic events or vaporize a prairie rat. I have posted this photo before on discussion like this before but the same arguments keep popping up. It is a bear that one of my clients wounded and that I had to follow up in very thick pucker brush. I was carrying my 30-06 stuffed with 220 gr Nosler partitions at the time and knew from experience that they would penetrate every bit as well as my 375 or 458 ( which I was wishing I had when he charged ). There is no way that I would have even attempted following it up if I had been using Bergers !!! And if I had I probably would not have survived.
A wise person chooses the best tool for the job.
Phil,
As I said above the premise of the OP was Grizzly Defense while hunting deer and elk. Following a wounded Brown Bear into the brush is a whole different discussion. Here in the lower 48 a hunter is facing much smaller bears and the odds of it being wounded prior to the encounter are astronomically small.
Here in Wyoming following a wounded Grizzly into the brush, as a hunter or guide, will get you a hefty fine and possible jail time. The FWS and Wyos game and Fish consider such activity bear hunting, not bear defense.
I would ask you how many times you have seen an unwounded bear follow through with a charge after being well hit with a rifle?
I would also like to know what your personal experience has been with the Berger VLD?
John, I am more than willing discuss personal experience with both Berger bullets and with Bears. Discussion are a two way street however. I have shot a lot of Bergers, but not at bears. As for the difference between a determined charge from an unwounded or wounded bear I will simply refer you to my daughter, her packer and her last bear client. 10 days ago they were charged by an unwounded sow - that was no bigger than a grizzly - It was a completely unexpected charge and the bear had come from a direction so that my daughter was unable shoot without endangering the client. Fortunately the packer was quick and was able to get a shot into it from his 375, which dropped it 15 feet in front of them. It immediately bounced back up and continued for the client. he was backing up as he shot and the bullet struck the neck of the bear as he fell over backwards. It died with it's head touching his feet !! I am sure a Berger would have worked as well in that case as the Nosler's that he was shooting. But we won't know until you tell your stories.
As for size of bears, there are recent records of grizzlies killed in Montana that weighed over 900 pounds. that is a good sized bear by any standards.
Actually, there was a Montana grizzly trapped by researchers a few years ago that bottomed out their 800-pound portable scale, and that was in the spring--which in all probability meant an over-1000 pound bear in the fall.
The griz mounted in the National Forest office just west of Lincoln was hit by a semi north of Seely Lake. The bear took the hit in the head from the trucks' bumper and died instantly so it was intact and it was weighed whole. 850 IIRC.
And there ends the debate, Uncle Jesse should use a semi for his hunting!
Meanwhile, I think I'll go over to the long range forum and tell everyone how a 300gr .375 roundnose hornady will work just fine for 900 yard animal shooting, you know, because I've done it so much. What the heck do people over there know anyhow?
JohnBurns, I am sure Mule Deer can also verify that fact that gunwriters, both old and new, are not always as honest in their stories as folks wish to believe. Even Jack who, as great a gun writer as he was, often told stories that shed him, and Eleanor, in the best light. If you are such a real fan of his take a close look at many of his photos and you will find than on more than one example there are photos of the same animal taken from a slightly different angle with Jack in one and Eleanor in another and each of them is credited with killing the same animal with a different rifle !
John, I am more than willing discuss personal experience with both Berger bullets and with Bears. Discussion are a two way street however. I have shot a lot of Bergers, but not at bears. As for the difference between a determined charge from an unwounded or wounded bear I will simply refer you to my daughter, her packer and her last bear client. 10 days ago they were charged by an unwounded sow - that was no bigger than a grizzly - It was a completely unexpected charge and the bear had come from a direction so that my daughter was unable shoot without endangering the client. Fortunately the packer was quick and was able to get a shot into it from his 375, which dropped it 15 feet in front of them. It immediately bounced back up and continued toward for the client. he was backing up as he shot and the bullet struck the neck of the bear as he fell over backwards. It died with it's head touching his feet !! I am sure a Berger would have worked as well in that case as the Nosler's that he was shooting. But we won't know until you tell your stories.
As for size of bears, there are recent records of grizzlies killed in Montana that weighed over 900 pounds. that is a good sized bear by any standards.
Phil,
I think you are referring to the bear picts, if so here is the story.
First bear was shot broadside through the shoulder at 175yds with a 180gr VLD from a 7mm Rem Mag. Bear collapsed at impact and rolled onto it�s back with the feet up in the air.
My bear was strongly quartering away at 620yds and the 180gr VLD entered behind the last rib and broke the offside shoulder. Bear ran 40yds and stopped facing straight away on a slope.
2nd bullet went over the hind end and entered right behind the hump. Bear turned into a dishrag and rolled down the slope.
The second bear was videoed.
I am not sure where the charge thing came from, other than Steelhead gigging me. He has seen the video.
As a side note, if I get ate by a bear can my relatives use this on my tombstone?
Well that settles it! I'm going subsonic 220 c&c twirling out to 400. Should get a nice tumble out of the 11 twist in the 308. No dinner bell ringing on the gut pile, should be lots of smackdown cuz it won't even open at those speeds.
I too would like to hear about the bear charges Burns has stopped at 5 yards with Bergers.
Originally Posted by RDFinn
That's proprietary info Scott
Am I being to hard on Lil Fish?? I cut the line and he seemed to swim away fine.
I though Scott and I were beginning to bond here as of late.
Compelling. Again, you have no first hand experience so in stead of following the STFU approach you show yourself to be the [bleep] many of us know you are.
There is a little bit of difference between the velocity, and more importantly the performance, of a Berger bullet at the muzzle and one at 620 yard - and no animal ( except man) can be considered dangerous at that distance.
I don't know your load but what do you figure the velocity of your bullet was when it struck the bear at that distance? I would guess it under 2000fps and about the same energy as a 30-30 ? You proved once again that 30-30 ballistics and soft cup and core bullets is all it takes to kill a bear under ideal conditions - but for those of us who believe in stalking up close on dangerous game I prefer something with just a little bit more reliable and proven performance.
That's what's great about Bergers: that 7 mag 180 was going over 2200 with a ton of energy and was only 4 ft low with a 280 zero. 15in wind drift per 10mph at 90degrees. All at over 600yds. Not bad for a 3.34" cartridge. We Berger lovers all know what that story reads like, and how it ends. John mentioned something before that has been my experience too: at close ranges they exit. They don't pop on the hide, nor do they pop on bone. Good times.
WOW, Does that mean that all this heavy, bonded core, homogenous bullet hype is simply BS? I image all the elephant cullers in Africa will be ordering them by the truck load.
Compelling. Again, you have no first hand experience so in stead of following the STFU approach you show yourself to be the [bleep] many of us know you are.
Congratulations.
Don't you have something that needs mopping or painted gray? Speaking of STFU....
Phil, a wise man recently stated, "I do know that there are no bad bullets..." Those cull hunters may want to invest in some Bergers when they finally burn through all the Soviet 7.62 fmj ammo.
Compelling. Again, you have no first hand experience so in stead of following the STFU approach you show yourself to be the [bleep] many of us know you are.
Congratulations.
Don't you have something that needs mopping or painted gray? Speaking of STFU....
John, I am more than willing discuss personal experience with both Berger bullets and with Bears. Discussion are a two way street however. I have shot a lot of Bergers, but not at bears. As for the difference between a determined charge from an unwounded or wounded bear I will simply refer you to my daughter, her packer and her last bear client. 10 days ago they were charged by an unwounded sow - that was no bigger than a grizzly - It was a completely unexpected charge and the bear had come from a direction so that my daughter was unable shoot without endangering the client. Fortunately the packer was quick and was able to get a shot into it from his 375, which dropped it 15 feet in front of them. It immediately bounced back up and continued toward for the client. he was backing up as he shot and the bullet struck the neck of the bear as he fell over backwards. It died with it's head touching his feet !! I am sure a Berger would have worked as well in that case as the Nosler's that he was shooting. But we won't know until you tell your stories.
As for size of bears, there are recent records of grizzlies killed in Montana that weighed over 900 pounds. that is a good sized bear by any standards.
Phil,
I think you are referring to the bear picts, if so here is the story.
First bear was shot broadside through the shoulder at 175yds with a 180gr VLD from a 7mm Rem Mag. Bear collapsed at impact and rolled onto it�s back with the feet up in the air.
My bear was strongly quartering away at 620yds and the 180gr VLD entered behind the last rib and broke the offside shoulder. Bear ran 40yds and stopped facing straight away on a slope.
2nd bullet went over the hind end and entered right behind the hump. Bear turned into a dishrag and rolled down the slope.
The second bear was videoed.
I am not sure where the charge thing came from, other than Steelhead gigging me. He has seen the video.
As a side note, if I get ate by a bear can my relatives use this on my tombstone?
Originally Posted by 458Win
Death by Berger
Pretty sure the bear charging stuff begun when the OP started the thread. Griz defense with Bergers. Ain't no griz defense going on at 620 yards, and no I didn't watch the video.
You have been wrong so many times on the 'Fire that this is about as sporty as screwing a retard.
You guys can take whichever bullet you want, I'm taking 458' and whatever bullet he wants.
I'm with you...He kills a charging Kodiak with a 06 & 220gr Partitions (cause they penetrate deepest) 458Win has got some kahunas (spelling?)
That recipe/load is the backcountry standard in AK, for the interior at least. Old timers favored an O3A3 for that purpose as they were cheap and available (way back when) and feed slickern' snot.
Compelling. Again, you have no first hand experience so in stead of following the STFU approach you show yourself to be the [bleep] many of us know you are.
Congratulations.
Don't you have something that needs mopping or painted gray? Speaking of STFU....
This thread has become classic, a wonderful example of someone asking a question, people with actual experience answering, and then people without experience acting like they know the answer and insisting on arguing about it.
Just because you really really like something and want/hope it will work doesn't mean it will. And that's okay.
Take A Knee, Sorry I got a bit sarcastic but I am a bit long in the tooth to believe in magic bullets that penetrate all the way through anything, at any distance, and destroy everything in between. Maybe I can't shoot as well as you but I have killed an awful lot of animals at both close range and at long range to believe that one bullet is best in all situations.
If you tell me that you chronographed the loads and know they were going X? fps and you saw the exit hole first hand I have no reason to doubt you. And I am quite sure you will never experience a failure if ever forced into a close range defensive situation with a grizzly.
What say you? Should I be shooting a different bullet in Grizz country? Time to build a 338? My partner had an -06 with 180 grain Accubonds and I certainly was more confident in his load doing the job should it need to be done.
Without getting into the religion of bullets, it seems pretty clear that YOU were not confident in your bullet selection. No matter what anyone says, the next time out you will spend more time thinking about your bullet choice than hunting.
Having once taken a 30-06 with a frangible bullet after elk, it sucked. Probably would have been fine but I dwelled on the issue and did not enjoy the hunt.
Confidence in what you are shooting is probably more important than Berger vs. Barnes. Because you probably are just going to get ate anyway. Just ask this guy.
I am not sure where the charge thing came from, other than Steelhead gigging me. He has seen the video.
Posted by Uncle Jesse - OP. P 1.
"I've decided to hunt Elk and Mule Deer with the 155 Berger VLD out of my T3 308 this year. Everything was fine and dandy until yesterday when I was slowly walking down a two track to meet up with my hunting partner when I was startled by about a 3 year old Grizz crossing 88 yards ahead of me. The wind was blowing from 8 to 2 o'clock in front of me. I immediately halted all progress and decided to stand my ground, rifle off my shoulder.
AFAIK, the bear left without so much as a grunt but it was an uneasy 10 minutes waiting for my partner to arrive. He had to have winded me. Suddenly I felt the urge to be shooting an accubond or partition.
What say you? Should I be shooting a different bullet in Grizz country? Time to build a 338? My partner had an -06 with 180 grain Accubonds and I certainly was more confident in his load doing the job should it need to be done."
IF I understand correctly, the 'charging thing' was understood/implied as a possible event. U J was giving serious consideration as to WHICH bullet he SHOULD be using knowing that an "unexpected charge" can occur while deer/elk hunting. Such things HAVE HAPPENED.
FWIW - I'll take 458 Win's recommendation, NO ?? asked.
You just have to hunt them where they are. Which for these big bears is typically in thick pucker brush - whether it's on Kodiak or the peninsula. That is why I have all the gray in my beard -- I am only 33. I wonder how Bergers are a bucking brush ?
This is an sample of one. I'm not a grizzly hunter, but hunt in grizzly country. I have taken 28 elk, 22 were bulls. All with Nosler Partitions, Trophy Bonded, Swift A-Frame, Hornady Interbond, and Nosler Accubond. In roughly correct chronological order. You can see the theory I favored in selecting bullets from this list. On Oct. 15 I used a 230 grain Berger OTM Hybrid to take a 6x5 bull. .300 Win Mag, range 350 yards, muzzle velocity 2775, impact velocity 2400 fps +or-. Bullet hit directly on the near side shoulder bone just above the "knee" and under the wide "blade", made a mess of the lungs near the heart, and I found this in the hide on the far side with no further bone hit. Retained weight 81 grains. The bull went down when hit, no tracking needed, the near shoulder was completely unhinged. Wish now I took more damage pics, wasn't trying to prove anything at that time. My conclusion after what I witnessed I would trust this combo on a grizzly in most any scenario.
Take A Knee, Sorry I got a bit sarcastic but I am a bit long in the tooth to believe in magic bullets that penetrate all the way through anything, at any distance, and destroy everything in between.
Phil I got no dog in this bullet debate (I just like twistin' Steelhead's fur through the fence), especially when it comes to bears. I watched an 8ft brownie standing on his hind legs (15yd away) take an 8mm core-loct in the sternum and still run 75yd. He had to be shot again to keep him from crawling into a creek. That ain't even a big brownie. That is the sum total of my brown bear experience, that and carrying that skull off the top of Hinchinbrook Island. I KNOW what Bergers do to deer but I'll be "loaded for bear" with TSX's if I ever make it back to AK.
I'm just glad I only have Black Bears where I hunt elk. Whatever will work on the elk I'm hunting will work on any bear I see. No desire to be anywhere near those things Phil has shot.
Phil, if I ever hunt with you, would you do me a favor and go in first? A fearless guide like yourself could, I assume, tie him up for me! And I see why your beard is gray! There is no way you'd see this pilgrim picking a fight in thick pucker brush with a BIG BEAR on purpose!
This thread has become classic, a wonderful example of someone asking a question, people with actual experience answering, and then people without experience acting like they know the answer and insisting on arguing about it.
Just because you really really like something and want/hope it will work doesn't mean it will. And that's okay.
It is funny. Seems like there is only one guy in the entire thread that has actually stuck a Berger in a Grizzly.
Originally Posted by 458Win
There is a little bit of difference between the velocity, and more importantly the performance, of a Berger bullet at the muzzle and one at 620 yard - and no animal ( except man) can be considered dangerous at that distance.
Phil,
I will have to disagree with you on that, the part about Berger VLD bullet performance. I base this on shoulder shooting way more than a few elk from under 100yds to over 1100yds. One of the major factors that drove me to use the VLD type bullet was the boringly consistent terminal results from close to far.
Elk skulls are similar in size to our largest Grizzlies and I have noggin shot elk from point blank to 800yds and again VLDs simply perform. If anything the VLD is slower to expand at close range (the core is still hard at close range).
Originally Posted by 458Win
I don't know your load but what do you figure the velocity of your bullet was when it struck the bear at that distance? I would guess it under 2000fps and about the same energy as a 30-30 ?
I was shooting a 7mm Rem Mag with a muzzle velocity of 2975fps with the 180gr VLD.
Conditions were 2500ft and 45 degrees temp so impact velocity was 2300 fps.
Do we really want to go down the road that rifles are more effective at 620yds than at the muzzle??
The other bear was at 175yds but the bullet was launched from a 7mm Rem Mag. 2975 fps at the muzzle. Impact was at 2768 fps into the shoulders and pretty similar to the OPs .308 Win load at contact distance. Sucked the life out of that bear so fast it was one of the few animals I have ever seen that literally died with it�s feet up in the air.
Originally Posted by 458Win
WOW, Does that mean that all this heavy, bonded core, homogenous bullet hype is simply BS? I image all the elephant cullers in Africa will be ordering them by the truck load.
Well that really is hyperbole. Nobody suggested shooting elephant with VLDs. The OP was asking about switching out his deer/elk load because he got a little worried about a 2yr old grizzly. Seriously Phil he got worried about a 2yr old grizzly. 250 lbs tops????????????
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
You've gotta be kidding me. The Berger hype has officially went to a whole new level of ridiculousness when someone recommends them for elephants.
Yes we are really recommending VLDs for face shooting Rogue Bull Elephants. Run and tell your buddies. Quickly.Like as in right now. Lives are on the line. Only PG can save the day cause the elephant are going to stomp all us VLD elk killin bums into a mud puddle.
Dude, A GRIP. Get one.
Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
You've gotta be kidding me. The Berger hype has officially went to a whole new level of ridiculousness when someone recommends them for elephants.
All size critters, from all cartridges, at all distances. Hide, bone, organs - it doesn't matter.
Bergers are PFM in every situation.
You might actually do well to heed your own advise. Of course you could continue to guess at how the big boys play the game.
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Pretty sure the bear charging stuff begun when the OP started the thread. Griz defense with Bergers. Ain't no griz defense going on at 620 yards, and no I didn't watch the video.
You have been wrong so many times on the 'Fire that this is about as sporty as screwing a retard.
Lil Scotty,
You were just the first guy to post in the thread with the video of the Grizzly kill, right??? Kinda like ol Slick Willie didn't really inhale. You always make me smile but I do worry about you fading away with this retirement thing. Not good for your health buddy. Find something useful to do and soon. HINT!!!
Ps. 60K posts on the Fire is not exactly what I am talking about.
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
Originally Posted by RDFinn
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
if I get ate by a bear
....just make sure that gets video taped...............
As Timothy Treadwell became Timothy Tastewell, so will John Burns be know as John Burns On The Way In and the Way Out.
Well I was kinda thinking we could start a Campfire collection to buy Johnny B (Me don�t want that other JB getting my �Glory�) a Phil Brown Bear hunt. Johnny B gets one .264 Win Mag with a 140gr VLD and Phil agrees to film the disaster.
I figure Phil is going to need at a min 2X his going rate to tolerate the obvious (Me) and the going rate for Phil (by the hour)would make a bunch of high priced shyster lawyers question their billing. He is most likely worth it.
So Campfire buddies do you all want to see me get ate by the bear?? I sure would love to post a pict of 30 inches of bear noggin bone with a VLD hole though the middle. Might make me smile.
This thread has become classic, a wonderful example of someone asking a question, people with actual experience answering, and then people without experience acting like they know the answer and insisting on arguing about it.
Just because you really really like something and want/hope it will work doesn't mean it will. And that's okay.
It is funny. Seems like there is only one guy in the entire thread that has actually stuck a Berger in a Grizzly.
Originally Posted by 458Win
There is a little bit of difference between the velocity, and more importantly the performance, of a Berger bullet at the muzzle and one at 620 yard - and no animal ( except man) can be considered dangerous at that distance.
Phil,
I will have to disagree with you on that, the part about Berger VLD bullet performance. I base this on shoulder shooting way more than a few elk from under 100yds to over 1100yds. One of the major factors that drove me to use the VLD type bullet was the boringly consistent terminal results from close to far.
Elk skulls are similar in size to our largest Grizzlies and I have noggin shot elk from point blank to 800yds and again VLDs simply perform. If anything the VLD is slower to expand at close range (the core is still hard at close range).
Originally Posted by 458Win
I don't know your load but what do you figure the velocity of your bullet was when it struck the bear at that distance? I would guess it under 2000fps and about the same energy as a 30-30 ?
I was shooting a 7mm Rem Mag with a muzzle velocity of 2975fps with the 180gr VLD.
Conditions were 2500ft and 45 degrees temp so impact velocity was 2300 fps.
Do we really want to go down the road that rifles are more effective at 620yds than at the muzzle??
The other bear was at 175yds but the bullet was launched from a 7mm Rem Mag. 2975 fps at the muzzle. Impact was at 2768 fps into the shoulders and pretty similar to the OPs .308 Win load at contact distance. Sucked the life out of that bear so fast it was one of the few animals I have ever seen that literally died with it�s feet up in the air.
Originally Posted by 458Win
WOW, Does that mean that all this heavy, bonded core, homogenous bullet hype is simply BS? I image all the elephant cullers in Africa will be ordering them by the truck load.
Well that really is hyperbole. Nobody suggested shooting elephant with VLDs. The OP was asking about switching out his deer/elk load because he got a little worried about a 2yr old grizzly. Seriously Phil he got worried about a 2yr old grizzly. 250 lbs tops????????????
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
You've gotta be kidding me. The Berger hype has officially went to a whole new level of ridiculousness when someone recommends them for elephants.
Yes we are really recommending VLDs for face shooting Rogue Bull Elephants. Run and tell your buddies. Quickly.Like as in right now. Lives are on the line. Only PG can save the day cause the elephant are going to stomp all us VLD elk killin bums into a mud puddle.
Dude, A GRIP. Get one.
Originally Posted by ironbender
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
You've gotta be kidding me. The Berger hype has officially went to a whole new level of ridiculousness when someone recommends them for elephants.
All size critters, from all cartridges, at all distances. Hide, bone, organs - it doesn't matter.
Bergers are PFM in every situation.
You might actually do well to heed your own advise. Of course you could continue to guess at how the big boys play the game.
Originally Posted by Steelhead
Pretty sure the bear charging stuff begun when the OP started the thread. Griz defense with Bergers. Ain't no griz defense going on at 620 yards, and no I didn't watch the video.
You have been wrong so many times on the 'Fire that this is about as sporty as screwing a retard.
Lil Scotty,
You were just the first guy to post in the thread with the video of the Grizzly kill, right??? Kinda like ol Slick Willie didn't really inhale. You always make me smile but I do worry about you fading away with this retirement thing. Not good for your health buddy. Find something useful to do and soon. HINT!!!
Ps. 60K posts on the Fire is not exactly what I am talking about.
Originally Posted by prairie_goat
Originally Posted by RDFinn
Originally Posted by JohnBurns
if I get ate by a bear
....just make sure that gets video taped...............
As Timothy Treadwell became Timothy Tastewell, so will John Burns be know as John Burns On The Way In and the Way Out.
Well I was kinda thinking we could start a Campfire collection to buy Johnny B (Me don�t want that other JB getting my �Glory�) a Phil Brown Bear hunt. Johnny B gets one .264 Win Mag with a 140gr VLD and Phil agrees to film the disaster.
I figure Phil is going to need at a min 2X his going rate to tolerate the obvious (Me) and the going rate for Phil (by the hour)would make a bunch of high priced shyster lawyers question their billing. He is most likely worth it.
So Campfire buddies do you all want to see me get ate by the bear?? I sure would love to post a pict of 30 inches of bear noggin bone with a VLD hole though the middle. Might make me smile.
Nice Elk above, I'll leave Stopping the Big Bears to you Berger Lovers. As tough and strong as Elk are, they are not known to bite, swipe, or otherwise decapitate humans. Something tells me large bears have a little more meanness in them.
There is a little bit of difference between the velocity, and more importantly the performance, of a Berger bullet at the muzzle and one at 620 yard - and no animal ( except man) can be considered dangerous at that distance.
Phil,
I will have to disagree with you on that, the part about Berger VLD bullet performance. I base this on shoulder shooting way more than a few elk from under 100yds to over 1100yds. One of the major factors that drove me to use the VLD type bullet was the boringly consistent terminal results from close to far.
I will have to take your work for it . And you did say they always exit also! I can't believe that all these years I have been so gullible as to have fallen for all that bonded core, homogenous bullet BS.
In summary, no one has said that a Gameking, Matchking, Blitzking, Berger VLD, , Ballistic Tip, or Powerlokt can't kill bears. It just that there are several good choices which none of them equal when things get brown and runny. And some of them have been taking elk and dispatching wayward bears a quantity of times longer than "anything Berger" has been around. That doesn't mean that a Berger is somehow a bad hunting bullet. There ain't one best bullet for everything, and few more than that which do most things well.
With all due respect to John Burns and Rcamigula,if I were huntin' in an area with Grizzly bears,the rifle WILL be loaded with the heaviest Nosler Partitions in whatever caliber I'm carrying. Noslers are an excellent security blanket.
I think most of us would say that is more of a stunt than a smart thing to do. Kind of like shooting Cape buffalo with a ballistic tip. There's the off chance it might work, but it's not wise given all the other options.
But hey, if Berger is your true love and you must in all hunts remain faithful to her, it's a free country.
Bowhunting, photography, hiking, and fishing in grizzly country would mean certain death, decapitation, and total dismemberment. Unless you had a show stopper DG rifle stuffed full of titanium jacketed welded tungsten core triple walled bonded plutonium tipped solid fuel boattail CNS seeking proximity exploding bullets. How did Lewis and Clark's party and the early trappers last more than a week? C'mon, man..............(Chris Carter)
Bowhunting, photography, hiking, and fishing in grizzly country would mean certain death, decapitation, and total dismemberment. Unless you had a show stopper DG rifle stuffed full of titanium jacketed welded tungsten core triple walled bonded plutonium tipped solid fuel boattail CNS seeking proximity exploding bullets. How did Lewis and Clark's party and the early trappers last more than a week? C'mon, man..............(Chris Carter)
Thankfully, it's only the live ones who write diaries and journals. (BTW, I believe the folks of yore were a lot more inclined to pop a cap on the potential threat than people are today, for various reasons. That right there places them at some advantage, weapon types aside.)
yes, but a few years ago, grizzlys killed two hunters in Montana in two separate incidents because the bear was shot. in both cases, the bear was shot by hunters thinking it was a blackie and followed into the brush.
yes, but a few years ago, grizzlys killed two hunters in Montana in two separate incidents because the bear was shot. in both cases, the bear was shot by hunters thinking it was a blackie and followed into the brush.
if you have to shoot one, you better kill it
Probably because they shot them with Barnes that penciled. LOL
yes, but a few years ago, grizzlys killed two hunters in Montana in two separate incidents because the bear was shot. in both cases, the bear was shot by hunters thinking it was a blackie and followed into the brush.
if you have to shoot one, you better kill it
Probably because they shot them with Barnes that penciled. LOL
That isn't exactly unique to a single brand or style of hollowpoint. I'm not a huge fan of Barnes bullets, but I'll take them for hunting over a bullet that seems to be intended as a controlled failure design.
Thankfully, it's only the live ones who write diaries and journals. (BTW, I believe the folks of yore were a lot more inclined to pop a cap on the potential threat than people are today, for various reasons. That right there places them at some advantage, weapon types aside.)
I am almost certain one of the most amazing aspects of the Lewis and Clark trip was the fact they did not lose a single man on the entire expedition, to any cause.
You are correct, thank you for clearing that up. I have a booklet sitting right here put out by a museum that was showing L&C stuff and they say no one died... Obviously they are wrong.
You are show a bullet that looks to have not been propperly stabilized and hitting not point on, causing bending of the point and showing obvious signs of tumbling. I still call BS on the "penciling"
No dog in this fight and no offense John Burns, but I'm with Phil Shoemaker on this one.
After reading 20+ pages of this debate I recall the story of the 280 Ross. Back at the turn of the 20th Century, this was a highly touted round at high velocity. The problem was frangible bullets, not saying the Bergers are the same construction but similiar attributes, when used to stop DG charges, people ended up mauled and dead, as did the round.
You may not believe the two relate but there are principles that are the same.
If I hit Lotto and have the coin to hunt Brown Bear in Alaska, I will be booking with Phil and taking his advice bringing ammo loaded with Nosler Partitions or Barnes X Bullets, whichever shoots best in the gun I will be using.
After reading 20+ pages of this debate I recall the story of the 280 Ross. Back at the turn of the 20th Century, this was a highly touted round at high velocity. The problem was frangible bullets, not saying the Bergers are the same construction but similiar attributes, when used to stop DG charges, people ended up mauled and dead, as did the round.
You may have missed my post about the Berger smashing the near side shoulder of a bull elk and going on to shred the lungs and lodging in the skin on the far side. I'm not real sure how much more to expect from a bullet. But it is normal to resist change and the next new thing. Like them or not, Bergers are starting to get popular with hunters who want their quarry to take a quick dirt nap. Somebody had to try Partitions first too. PS, I do like "heavy for caliber" projectiles.
yes, but a few years ago, grizzlys killed two hunters in Montana in two separate incidents because the bear was shot. in both cases, the bear was shot by hunters thinking it was a blackie and followed into the brush.
if you have to shoot one, you better kill it
Probably because they shot them with Barnes that penciled. LOL
I really can't believe I have to explain my post. Well, on second thought considering some involved, I do.
See the "LOL" at the end of the sentence? That means I'm Laughing Out Loud at the joke I made. I got it, but then again, I'm weird.
The story about the dude who shot the antelope with the 180 TSX twice and it still got away is fact, no matter if you want to believe it or not, I couldn't give a good schit. See that's where my above post comes in. I can picture the Barnes X bullets penciling and the bear running into the bush just like the antelope (those antelope are really tough to kill ), and the guys hunting running into trouble when they go in after him.
Why? Cuz it seems to happen with Barnes bullets more than any other in stories I hear first hand from friends who guide as well as many threads here on the 'Fire.
They didn't expand and penciled. They were posted by Shrapnel and his buddy Joshf303. They both said after that they pulled all the Barnes bullets and got rid of them. They'll never shoot another. Fotis also posted pics on the same thread of 4 Barnes X bullets that didn't expand.
Some of you also think that I believe that THE ONLY BULLET to shoot at a grizz is a Berger. Nothing could be further from the truth. While I think that most bullets will work just fine, I think the Berger will too.
This thread is kinda like a .223 deer thread where all the proponents say it's all about "placement" and all the naysayers say you need a bigger caliber. My views have changed on that as well.
I'm trying to follow the logic here.....because Barnes have sometimes penciled, we therefore shoot Bergers into incoming grizzlies?
I guess there's nothing else out there except those two, huh?
Some of these bullet conversations get ridiculous.
I agree, Bob, some of these bullet threads are ridiculous. There is a lot of ridicule going on. I think they get absurd too, because people with no experience with a given bullet on a given size of animal wax authoritatively about why it won't work, can't work, and how it is dangerous to consider. All the while, others with experience are denigrated. When opposing viewpoints reach for hyperbole, nothing new is learned.
I find myself wondering what a discussion would look like if somebody asked, "Hey I've got an '06 loaded with 220 Partitions and I'm going after coastal Browns in heavy cover. Is this a good combo?"
I keep wanting to go back to the original question. There is no bear hunting happening. Nobody should be pursuing bears without a proper permit. Prevention from bear attack is the goal. Stopping an aggressive bear may be required, but the chances are slim. The question was centered on whether a particular gun, bullet would achieve this, if required. It has been redirected repeatedly, which is usual, and the discussion has been interesting, but I notice that we still find the pro- and anti-Berger camps.
After reading 20+ pages of this debate I recall the story of the 280 Ross. Back at the turn of the 20th Century, this was a highly touted round at high velocity. The problem was frangible bullets, not saying the Bergers are the same construction but similiar attributes, when used to stop DG charges, people ended up mauled and dead, as did the round.
You may have missed my post about the Berger smashing the near side shoulder of a bull elk and going on to shred the lungs and lodging in the skin on the far side. I'm not real sure how much more to expect from a bullet. But it is normal to resist change and the next new thing. Like them or not, Bergers are starting to get popular with hunters who want their quarry to take a quick dirt nap. Somebody had to try Partitions first too. PS, I do like "heavy for caliber" projectiles.
WYCoyote,
I am not doubting your results or anybody else's. My point is up close and personal is different than normal shooting distance or in John Burn's case, shots 90% are not comfortable taking. High velocity with bullet characteristics such as the Berger would not be my choice up close and personal. Others have tried and did not make out well.
High velocity with bullet characteristics such as the Berger would not be my choice up close and personal. Others have tried and did not make out well.
High velocity with bullet characteristics such as the Berger would not be my choice up close and personal. Others have tried and did not make out well.
Who?
Standing by.
Really want to hear about an instance where a guy shot a bear "up close and personal" with a bullet similar in construction to a Berger Hunting VLD and "didn't make out too well".
High velocity with bullet characteristics such as the Berger would not be my choice up close and personal. Others have tried and did not make out well.
Who?
Standing by.
Really want to hear about an instance where a guy shot a bear "up close and personal" with a bullet similar in construction to a Berger Hunting VLD and "didn't make out too well".
Get a copy of "Alaska Bear" Tales and knock yourself out
I'm trying to follow the logic here.....because Barnes have sometimes penciled, we therefore shoot Bergers into incoming grizzlies?
I guess there's nothing else out there except those two, huh?
Some of these bullet conversations get ridiculous.
Bob,
Remember the OP was about deer and elk hunting in Grizzly country. If we follow the logic to the conclusion then some here propose we only hunt deer and elk, while in Grizzly country, with cartridges and bullets ideal for close range encounters with wounded Alaskan Brown Bears.
My position is that I will use a bullet/cartridge that is ideal for deer and elk but would, in my opinion, be adequate for Grizzly defense.
Originally Posted by ChipM
No dog in this fight and no offense John Burns, but I'm with Phil Shoemaker on this one.
ChipM,
No offense taken. A guy, the OP, asked a question on the internet. I gave my opinion.
My opinion was based on having seen 1 grizzly killed with a Berger VLD, personally killing a Grizzly with a Berger VLD, and hunting deer and elk with Berger VLDs in Grizzly country.
Lots of others also posted opinion. Some opinions, such as Phil's, were well reasoned, compelling and based on extensive real world experience. Other opinions were bases on the poster proclivity to doing "Korean dudes".
I really don't take offense from somebody who simply do not agree with me on a Hunting forum. Seems like the discussions might get pretty dull.
Originally Posted by Steelhead
In summary apparently John Burns wants me to do his wife, but I ain't into Korean dudes.
It's 3 AM in the morning and this is what is ratting around in your brain? Tough time sleeping?
If you go back to the original post I had, I am talking high velocity, frangible bullets, not neccesarily a Berger. Go back and read the history of the 280 Ross and the lion hunters that were mauled and killed.
John, I'm glad no offense and do understand you like the Bergers and are very successful with them. I guess if we go back 28 pages to the original question, I would rather have anything then nothing if faced with the situation described. IMHO though, I would want a bullet that has a proven track record, controlled expansion and retained weight.
Someone earlier mentioned the study done years ago by a couple of guys from I believe it was Federal Fish and Wildlife. I have it in an old Outdoor Life Book and it is a good read. Love to see the findings now with the bullets on the market, but one thing that was there is that the high velocity rounds did not fair well, with bullet technology today, I am sure the results may change a bit.
No one has suggested a gun bearer to the OP, have they? UncleJesse could pack his 308 with the Bergers, and his gun bearer could stay in close proximity with a 'stopping' rifle. Maybe a 600NE or 4-bore double. Or a bolt gun in 500 Jeffery or 505 Gibbs. Sounds reasonable.
Anyway, I'm glad we solved this debate, unanimously reaching the conclusion that Bergers, while not an ideal choice for fending off bears, are certainly adequate, if shot or shots are placed properly. Thanks to all who have tirelessly participated in a sincere effort to reach a factual conclusion.
If you are really worried about a Grizzly Attack while hunting other game then carry a rifle and cal designed to hunt Bear with at close range, starting with the 338 and 250 gr Partitions and go up from there . I would be willing to bet if a Grizzly actually charged at butt screwing range any rifle and load would feel puny in your hands and it would be a one shot deal before the bear was chewing on you. Regardless of the bullet and cal you had better do it right the first shot. I have always been in Elmer Keith corner, Big Bullets make Big Holes where they expand or not . I believe you would be better off with penetration rather than quick expansion if you want to survive a animal the size of any bear bend on hurting you . If you hunt in Bear country use what you feel comfortable with , it is your life and your decision. If you survive or if you don't. you will still make a good story for Outdoor Life Magazine .
I saw a smallish brown bear shot in the chest at a quartering angle with that 300gr barnes out of a .458 socom. The animal was pretty unimpressed. The onset of darkness finally made us give up a spotty blood trail for the night. The next morning you could see where the bear had turned, flanked his trail, and laid in wait about 30 yards from where we gave up the night before. Thankfully in the night he must have grown bored. There was no more sign of him after that.
I think that between the angle the bear was at, and the likely limited penetration of a low S.D. bullet, that only one lung was holed.
If the bullet is large enough to begin with, expansion is just icing on the cake. No?
I realize this has little or nothing to do with this discussion, but I would opine that shape and size of frontal area of expanding/expanded projectile matter more (along with speed of moving projectile) than does the diameter of the original bullet. Of course the original diameter may affect those details.
If the bullet is large enough to begin with, expansion is just icing on the cake. No?
I realize this has little or nothing to do with this discussion, but I would opine that shape and size of frontal area of expanding/expanded projectile matter more (along with speed of moving projectile) than does the diameter of the original bullet. Of course the original diameter may affect those details.
I always thought this was true. Still do.
Royce, experience with charging grizzlies does not come cheap for most of us; nor frequently. But the issue sure does get a lot of ink
The thing is if and when one does get charged by a grizz at close range it is not a time for iffy bullets. My choice is most certainly one that has proven itself in action not simply in theory. If one fails to stop the charge quickly the damage is bad
The thing is if and when one does get charged by a grizz at close range it is not a time for iffy bullets. My choice is most certainly one that has proven itself in action not simply in theory. If one fails to stop the charge quickly the damage is bad
Based on actual field experience, I'd say that "damage" is certainly the operative word in this whole equation of charging brown/grizzly bears and inadequate bullets.
I was talking to a reputable AK guide and looking at pics of hunts and noticed he was carrying a safari rifle. I asked if he hunted with that rifle and his response was no we have been running into a fair share of bears lately and its the largest cartridge I shoot well. It was a 416 Rem. He advised it penetrates deep an breaks stuff in its path.
Bergers are considered a good long range bullet I suppose, but I consider a Partition the minimum in a grizzly situation. 270 Winchester with 150's and up, although I would prefer a 375 caliber myself. No I don't have any experience, just good common sense prevails IMHO.
I guess a fella could use Bergers on charging grizzlies a couple of times, and if they didn't work, he could change to something else.
I'd bet that if they didn't work there wouldn't be a second time
We know they can work if placed well. The critical question, however, is whether they work better (or even as well) as other bullets when placed into a maliciously motivated animal in less than ideal locations for that is what one can expect under the circumstances (and which is why a lot of people like the long hole idea better.)
We know they can work if placed well. The critical question, however, is whether they work better (or even as well) as other bullets when placed into a maliciously motivated animal in less than ideal locations for that is what one can expect under the circumstances (and which is why a lot of people like the long hole idea better.)
Yeah, when they're coming at you from 60 feet away (or less) and traveling at about 20-30 miles an hour through truly thick (jungle-like) brush, they don't give you much to shoot at, nor is the situation conducive to "proper shot placement".
The last two that I had to follow up after clients had wounded them, didn't provide ideal circumstance in which to dispatch them.
For example: One bear was killed only after I'd accidently shot through a 4-inch thick alder with a .375 H&H magnum loaded with 300 grain Nosler Partition bullets. That shot was fired from about 25 or 30 feet. Even still, the bear kept coming and I dropped him at about 12 feet with a shot into the end of the nose.
So the new standard for hunting bullets is that they should be able to penetrate 4 inches of alder close to the muzzle and still kill the animal at whatever distance? Or is that only for people hunting in bear country?
I still think the best defense against bears while hunting is still to be aware of your surroundings and not just wandering into thick stuff unawares. The grizz I've come across in the wilderness were heard before seen. If there is one that has appeared close, make human noise. Scare them off. Be ready to shoot. In the face or neck if you can. If you can't shoot straight, maybe it's best to carry a DG gun with DG bullets. I believe mental preparation is far more important than bullet, cartridge, gun. Our big brains are what have allowed us to make it this long as a race.
Your another one who thinks all attacks come with a warning! Well my friend your wrong.
I don't see where you're gotten that. All bear attacks come from bears. Once again, the OP was talking about deer/elk hunting, so we aren't talking about crawling through stuff where you can only see for feet. I do know that it is possible to sense a bear before he's chewing on me, and I do know that the best thing I can do, regardless of gun, cartridge, bullet, or lack thereof, is to be AWARE OF MY SURROUNDINGS, and if bears are a concern, I should probably not put myself in situations where I'd be at quite a disadvantage. If I haven't done these things, and then rely on a firearm to save my ass, then I get what I deserve.
We need to send out a grizzly amber alert to all those deer and elk hunters out there today with .270s loaded with Core Lokts and Power points. OMG, what if they have Bergers?
I've been curious to try them since I saw Youtube videos. Have access to an old, crappy single-shot, so maybe some day. Certainly can't deny their effectiveness.
's-matter, don'tcha think a half ounce of #12 dust would dispatch old Ursus - or even a very young one- quite handily?
Shooting through brush is one of the realities of hunting. Not something a guy plans for, but it happens!
Sho' enough does. A few years ago I was hunting snowshoes with a 45 Colt rifle which the little buggers thought couldn't get them if they hid behind frozen alder trunks. They never had a chance to learn that a Hornady XTP would not only get through, but would become a spray of multiple missiles that no rabbit could survive. As a bonus, the cloud of fur that attached to every surrounding branch made spotting the corpse easy.
(Would a redneck Berger be one loaded backwards? )
As a kid I took all the pellets out of a buckshot load and split them with a chisel so I could crimp them on a piece of wire fishing leader.
Sneaked up on a woodchuck at the edge of my grandfather's garden and let fly at very close range... nearly cut him in two. Made awesome whistling sounds as they changed directions and went just about anywhere they wanted to!
The folks at Western Powders have a bowling ball mortar. Their property is north of Miles City, Montana, with a lot of open space, including a long shooting range. It's also across a highway from the local airport.
The first time they fired it I was there. They shot it on their long range and tilted the mortar fairly high, assuming the bowling ball would make a high arc and go maybe 75-100 yards. Instead it went do high it disappeared in the bright blue sky, and people were scurrying for cover. They eventually found the ball buried in the hard Montana sod, more than 200 yards away. After that they looked around carefully for low-flying aircraft before touching it off.
There are a few Alaskans who do the same out on the tidal flats around Anchorage and it is amazing how far they will go - and how deep in the mud they will penetrate. Almost as good as a Berger
I wouldn't think big, slow, soft projectiles like those would penetrate deep enough in a big, tough critter like a Kodiac.
DF
Brennekes really are the standard by which shotgun slugs are judged. But, there are better slugs these days, like Remington Copper Solids. Usually a deer won't catch either, but if the dirt on the other side is any indication, the Copper Solids out penetrate the Brennekes.
That said, you just don't get the high velocity secondary missiles from a shotgun impact like you do from a high velocity rifle.
This is the one to which I referred. This is on a pard's "airsmith" web page. He didn't make it - another local feller did. It's done AK-redneck style!
The bowling ball fella has shot out into Cook Inlet from the bluff in Kenai too. One time a passing freighter thought it was under attack, so I heard. The ship was probably 10 miles off shore.
I bet an incoming bowling ball has substantial deterrent effect.
Will this work on incoming grizz?
Absolutely! It's just a bit less handy than a rifle. It will shoot to 600 yds too, so that should generate some interest with some folks. I'd tell you more, but the rest is proprietary.
Dump the Bergers and load a TSX, TTSX, Partition, Accubond etc. You can't rely on being able to precisely hitting a charging bear. Surface wounds may not turn him. Penetration reigns IMO.
I bet an incoming bowling ball has substantial deterrent effect.
Will this work on incoming grizz?
Absolutely! It's just a bit less handy than a rifle. It will shoot to 600 yds too, so that should generate some interest with some folks. I'd tell you more, but the rest is proprietary.
But wouldn't it be gooey? (I've heard that lead bullets melt in flight; plastic must be worser certainly......'sides, I heard it on the internet. )
A .357 handgun and a bottle of Ten High whiskey would probably suffice.
What's with the 357......this is supposed to be a "lowest common denominator" thread. A 38 Special with hard casts should certainly be sufficient, even for the hardest noggins......and get with the hootch label, man. Even in the most remote places, people ain't going to spend good coin for the cheapest stuff. $250 at least gets you a jug of the fine R&R or Windsor.
Oh man, so you're saying that for $250 I can get a fifth of Windsor Canadian and thereby drink myself to oblivion, while all the while fondling my .38 Special with its 5-1/2 inch barrel that's seamed to a double-action revolver and thereby, I can "celebrate" the holidays by terrorizing the neighborhood before blowing my brains out in the desperation of escaping sub-Arctic darkness? Oh man.
Oh man, so you're saying that for $250 I can get a fifth of Windsor Canadian and thereby drink myself to oblivion, while all the while fondling my .38 Special with its 5-1/2 inch barrel that's seamed to a double-action revolver and thereby, I can "celebrate" the holidays by terrorizing the neighborhood before blowing my brains out in the desperation of escaping sub-Arctic darkness? Oh man.
Go for it. I'll be sure and send your Russian girlfriends an invite to the funeral.
Oh man, so you're saying that for $250 I can get a fifth of Windsor Canadian and thereby drink myself to oblivion, while all the while fondling my .38 Special with its 5-1/2 inch barrel that's seamed to a double-action revolver and thereby, I can "celebrate" the holidays by terrorizing the neighborhood before blowing my brains out in the desperation of escaping sub-Arctic darkness? Oh man.
Go for it. I'll be sure and send your Russian girlfriends an invite to the funeral.
You're still stuck on the pathetic delusional ravings and rants of someone who had or has no idea of what they're talking about and who has nothing better to do than to present supposition and or speculation about someone whom they really don't even know or yet, have no idea who it actually is? Geesh, Bro, don't get so hung-up on following completely maligned social media trends that portray you in such an ill light.
Oh man, so you're saying that for $250 I can get a fifth of Windsor Canadian and thereby drink myself to oblivion, .......
I don't mean to derail such a fine detour , but, I would have to say, "It depends on your def of 'oblivion'." (Accepting the fact that 'oblivious' and 'oblivion' must surely be related somehow.)
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Generally this has worked out well. 
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....are Shoemaker and Sitka Deer (Art)shooting them now at brown bear? And has John Burns switched to Aframes or Barnes? 
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