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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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That one's obviously beyond his [bleep]. (Those are the ones that concern me the most.)
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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Yup...
The bullet that was recovered from Riley's Kodiak bear this spring and the bone fragment it created do lend a little credence to the concept of bullets bouncing off bears' brains...
Bears are light boned, but the bone is flexible and very tough.
Recovered a 25 caliber 80gr TTSX from a big chunk of moose bone... That was after it went through the chest and it still made a convincing hole in a bone far heavier than any found in any bear.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Seen a bullet lodged against a bear's bean a time or two. A live - or recently dead- bear head is certainly a lot different than an old dried skull. The same is true of most any skeletal structure from any animal.
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
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And guys want to trust their life to a Berger against that? No way for me. mtmuley
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Seems that posting those ego-stroking hero pics kinda slowed down the Berger Bashing. ....hmmmmmm I really don't think that anyone is bashing Bergers. Seems they are designed and constructed the way they are for a reason,and to do what they "do" because of the design, construction,and materials from which they are made. Bullets are tools and nothing more. Suggesting that they might not be the best choice for dealing with a large,dangerous animal at close range is no more an indictment of them than suggesting that an Aframe or Barnes may not be the best choice for shooting herbivores at 700-1000 yards.This isn't a criticism of either...simply an acknowledgement that each "tool" has its place and application. And since dangerous animals are only dangerous when they are very close,that's the criteria we are dealt. At some point,logic and reason have to enter the picture....But if you have an agenda, to prove they are the "best" bullets for ALL hunting,suited to all purposes,and dismiss the notion that all tools are not the same, then reason...and logic...are lost in the din of pushing the agenda. If they were THAT good for that purposes, we would see them in the rifles of dangerous game professionals for real dirty work....and we don't,far as I know. But maybe things have changed? ....are Shoemaker and Sitka Deer (Art)shooting them now at brown bear? And has John Burns switched to Aframes or Barnes? Of course I say all this in fun and for the purpose of making a point but I think folks will get my drift. Never been charged by a grizzly but I would think that the skull would be a pretty difficult target;aside from the toughness of the bone,the brain is small,the head moving(along with the bear) and a guy would have to be highly skilled or lucky(or both) to hit the brain under the conditions. Of course I guess you take what you can get under the circumstances. Of course you will have a bit of time to contemplate your bullet choice,or where you otherwise went wrong as he rearranges your anatomy....which according to some accounts takes him about 15-30 seconds. At least that's the story I got from the wife of a guy who rushed 50 yards through the pucker brush when he heard his partner scream on Baranof Island.(I was on a flight back from Alaska). The pair were deer hunting and the partner was charged.The bear was gone in the time he moved that 50 yards,but had done enough damage that the partner died 5 days later from the injuries. I guess this stuff is not just theoretical.
Last edited by BobinNH; 10/15/13.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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I wasn't there and you were. If you felt the urge to be shooting an Accubond or Partition I see no reason to do anything else.
Just as likely to have a light handy .308 - if I thought about I might have some 200 grain round nose Partitions in my pocket but I'm not noted for thinking about it.
I'm still trying to figure out how carrying some heavy loads in your pocket will help you with a grizzly charge. I guess he will politely wait for you to rack out your lighter bullets and load your 200 grain bullets from your pocket. I certainly don't understand how others stating 5 in the mag in one in the pipe is preferred. I don't think you'll get more than 2 shots off unless you are being charged from 150 yards aways. Of course I never hunted in grizzly country but these things don't seem reasonable to me.
Scott
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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But maybe things have changed? ....are Shoemaker and Sitka Deer (Art)shooting them now at brown bear? And has John Burns switched to Aframes or Barnes? THAT should tell us something! aka - summation.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2007
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Seems that posting those ego-stroking hero pics kinda slowed down the Berger Bashing. ....hmmmmmm I really don't think that anyone is bashing Bergers. Seems they are designed and constructed the way they are for a reason,and to do what they "do" because of the design, construction,and materials from which they are made. Bullets are tools and nothing more. Suggesting that they might not be the best choice for dealing with a large,dangerous animal at close range is no more an indictment of them than suggesting that an Aframe or Barnes may not be the best choice for shooting herbivores at 700-1000 yards.This isn't a criticism of either...simply an acknowledgement that each "tool" has its place and application. And since dangerous animals are only dangerous when they are very close,that's the criteria we are dealt. At some point,logic and reason have to enter the picture....But if you have an agenda, to prove they are the "best" bullets for ALL hunting,suited to all purposes,and dismiss the notion that all tools are not the same, then reason...and logic...are lost in the din of pushing the agenda. If they were THAT good for that purposes, we would see them in the rifles of dangerous game professionals for real dirty work....and we don't,far as I know. But maybe things have changed? ....are Shoemaker and Sitka Deer (Art)shooting them now at brown bear? And has John Burns switched to Aframes or Barnes? Of course I say all this in fun and for the purpose of making a point but I think folks will get my drift. Never been charged by a grizzly but I would think that the skull would be a pretty difficult target;aside from the toughness of the bone,the brain is small,the head moving(along with the bear) and a guy would have to be highly skilled or lucky(or both) to hit the brain under the conditions. Of course I guess you take what you can get under the circumstances. Of course you will have a bit of time to contemplate your bullet choice,or where you otherwise went wrong as he rearranges your anatomy....which according to some accounts takes him about 15-30 seconds. At least that's the story I got from the wife of a guy who rushed 50 yards through the pucker brush when he heard his partner scream on Baranof Island.(I was on a flight back from Alaska). The pair were deer hunting and the partner was charged.The bear was gone in the time he moved that 50 yards,but had done enough damage that the partner died 5 days later from the injuries. I guess this stuff is not just theoretical. What does reason and logic have to do with bear defense? I agree Bob, I get on my high horse every now and then but when you stop and think about it reason and logic should take over. Especially when talking smaller calibers I think I would go with a heavy jacketed bullet, mono or partitioned type to protect my butt. JMHO and I have no experience at all with bears nor did I stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
JOC was right. The 270 Winchester on a Model 70 is a great combination as is the 30/06 and 375 H&H
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Campfire Outfitter
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The way I keep seeing this discussion going is "What bullet should I use to shoot a bear defensively?", when what UncleJesse was asking was more like "I have Bergers in my gun for deer and elk- will they work to stop a bear attack?". So I will ask again: what about Bergers will cause them to fail in such a case? It isn't an agenda-driven question, as it doesn't matter to me what others choose, and I already know what I choose. Certainly who uses a particular product isn't determined by a thorough logical determination, but rather a heuristic and emotional process. That is why marketing works so well, and why propaganda works so well. Humans are far from rational, and in the final analysis, what we have confidence in has far more an effect on the outcome than anything factual.
I belong on eroding granite, among the pines.
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Campfire Tracker
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JohnBurns, what ranges and impact velocities were those bears shot at? This was the question that immediately came to mind also. A partition is never a wrong answer, but I prefer monometals. Fully realizing that they usually do not win the expansion contest.
Arcus Venator
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Well, this is quite the thread. I think the plain and simple fact is that I'm not comfortable with Bergers while in Grizzly country. I have no such feelings with a 150 TSX, Partition or Accubond and will be loading those for next season. For the time-being I'll pack a can of spray as well when I'm in Grizz country.
My partners and I have encountered 4 grizzlies up close this season and the bears are definitely increasing in numbers and boldness. We only have a draw-system in BC for Grizzly hunts and the liberals seem to be getting their way more and more with reduced harvest quotas due to their concerns over "trophy hunts".
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Campfire Outfitter
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Seems that posting those ego-stroking hero pics kinda slowed down the Berger Bashing. ....hmmmmmm I'm sure those were close range, charging bears. Laffin...
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Campfire Tracker
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When bears charge you it's very fast and you are presented with shot angles which are less than ideal. The bear is very motivated to get you. What's called for is an expanding bullet of decent caliber that digs very deep.
I've never used any Berger or ballistic tip and likely never will simply due to my interests. I don't have any inclination to shoot big game animals 7 or 8 hundred yards away. What I like is hunting deer where brown bears live and therefore what matters to me ( and frankly should matter to anyone who hunts in brown/grizzly bear country) is how will my bullet perform on a bear at ten yards just as much if not more as how it does on a deer at 300.
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Interesting thread as I have been run off but not charged by Griz a few times in Cody while deer hunting. One bear ran by me so fast, almost literally knocking me down, and almost silently I would have been lucky to get a shot off if needed with my little BAR. That bear was in search of a gut pile and probably didn't care less about me. Shook me up enough that I'm loading 220 PTs this year instead of 200 Accubonds that I was considering in my 06. Scared the living crap out of me and my two partners saw the whole show and had toilet paper ready for me when I got back to the truck. They thought I was going to shoot but the bear never even looked at me. They are very fast animals. I'll be back there in two weeks.
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That is scary!
JOC was right. The 270 Winchester on a Model 70 is a great combination as is the 30/06 and 375 H&H
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Well, this is quite the thread. I think the plain and simple fact is that I'm not comfortable with Bergers while in Grizzly country. I have no such feelings with a 150 TSX, Partition or Accubond and will be loading those for next season. For the time-being I'll pack a can of spray as well when I'm in Grizz country. Laughin'! I'm with you...call me CHICKEN but the number one fear I have is being eaten ALIVE! Not drowning or being burnt to death. So ya'll can pi$$ on or flame me for what I am about to post here, but don't eat me! I've used the Burger VLD's in the 168gr out of a 7mmRM & they work AWESOME on coyotes. But when I hunt Griz areas I'm not going to bring that rifle or that bullet. I bring my 375H&H with a 260gr Nosler Partition that I know will flat thump a griz that has the want or need to cause me bodily harm! Ya'll do what you want but I ain't gonna be eaten on...then say to my self...man I wish I brought a bigger gun!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Ya'll do what you want but I ain't gonna be eaten on...then say to my self...man I wish I brought a bigger gun!
OR. wish I'd brought a tougher BULLET !!
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Campfire Outfitter
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You really need to double check the Original Poster's Post. He is hunting deer and elk and happens to be in Grizz country.
Are you suggesting he hunt deer and elk with a .375 H&H loaded with 260 grain monometals "just in case" he runs into a bear?
Like I said, for Grizz I'd rather be toting a 12ga with an extended magazine loaded with slugs. But if I'm hunting deer and elk I'm not going to be carrying that, am I?
IME, a bullet that expands rapidly like the Berger, Nosler BT, Sierra Game King or any other like them seem to have more "knock down power" or "DRT Value" or "stopping power" even on marginal hits on game.
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
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You really need to double check the Original Poster's Post. He is hunting deer and elk and happens to be in Grizz country.
Are you suggesting he hunt deer and elk with a .375 H&H loaded with 260 grain monometals "just in case" he runs into a bear?
Like I said, for Grizz I'd rather be toting a 12ga with an extended magazine loaded with slugs. But if I'm hunting deer and elk I'm not going to be carrying that, am I?
IME, a bullet that expands rapidly like the Berger, Nosler BT, Sierra Game King or any other like them seem to have more "knock down power" or "DRT Value" or "stopping power" even on marginal hits on game.
Having used a shotgun with slugs on a Kodiak bear during a followup through the alders at very close range I have to say I am more impressed with what it did than I should have been... I would never do it again if I have any choice in the matter. It killed a wounded 8 1/2' bear but it took a lot of shooting and shucking to get it done.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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