Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Griz Defense with Bergers

406 - it's not a Lapua Scenar bullet he's using, it's the Berger VLD. Different critter. I've had great results on mule deer with the Berger VLD's but I don't know how comfortable I'd be with them for ticked-off grizzly...

In 2009 we were hunting the sagebrush flats for mule deer, me with a .25-06 & Bergers, my buddy with a .270 Win. Didn't find many bucks down low so we went up into the mountains and hiked in. Shortly we found grizzly sow & cub tracks... I didn't feel real good about my rifle & bullets about then. We got out with two mule deer. Boned them out and packed 'em on our backs, but with a wary eye out for the grizz.

Promised myself after that trip that if I hunted that area again, it would be with a bigger rifle and heavier Nosler Partitions.

Guy

Maybe i'm wrong in my thinking, but a VLD, that is designed to penetrate 2-3", even through bone, and then loose all hell upon the forth coming vitals in front of it, might just put a grizzly down pretty quick. If I got a grizzly hell bent on making me it's next example of intolerance, I'd want to stop it's intent PDQ.

After talking to Sitka Deer, of Anchorage, 5+ years back before I headed North of Nome for my grizzly hunt, he convinced me that a grizzly is pretty lightly boned. He's been in on numerous kills and told me how he skinned out a Brownie's scapula and that is was nearly paper thin to a point he could see the shadow of his hand through it when held up to light.

Just wondering out loud.

Alan

Sorry I missed that. I've no experience with the Berger 155 and I'm very unlikely to get any in the future...........

The chance of a charging grizz makes me want something that'll penetrate the skull, not scapula.

I understand. I still think 155 gr 30 cal VLD would put a hurt on a grizzly skull before thrashing every thing in it's path.

Alan

A three-foot long hole at any angle is more likely to connect with - and disconnect- something that might reduce a bear's enthusiasm. I'd sure prefer something that would be inclined to make a three-foot long hole.

There was a penetration test on here somewhere...30 cals of all sorts against 6" cow femur and then a medium to simulate tissue. Based upon that test alone, I'd not worry about Bergers being too "soft" to get through a bear skull. If you read the writings of the guy who started Buffalo Bore Ammo, he has a lot to say about putting bears down, and what is actually required from his experience. I hunt where there are bears, and
I don't in the slightest feel under-gunned for bear attack with Bergers, though it does sound like there may be a bit more likelihood for you to see some in action, OP. Above all, carry what gives you confidence, as that will help you do what needs doing should the need arise.

http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/7219652/1

The question is not so much whether a Berger will penetrate a skull. It's more a matter of whether it will penetrate to vitals with something other than a perfect CNS shot, while breaking down skeletal structure on the way.

IMO, the best option for a bear charge is an RPG with a tube mounted bayonet in case the bear gets danger close.

Having shot some bears that were trying to get me, I vote for 3 foot long holes that are .366 to .458 'round. A .72 Brenneke does some magic too.

Having seen what a 200 NBT from a 340 Wtby didn't do to a middling-sized caribou at 50 yards when the bullet struck square in the stomach, I simply would not trust a rapid expander-type bullet for less than ideal bullet placement on a disgruntled bear. (That caribou lost its stomach contents through the wound, but it did not go down until another bullet was placed better.)

Why not an X bullet.

Years ago I learned to "pick my experts" when it came to things of which I knew nothing at all.... Generally this has worked out well.

So when it comes to VERY long range rifle shooting (not the common stuff like 400-500 yards) I will listen to John Burns,and use what he says works.

And when it comes to large,potentially dangerous animals like Alaskan Brown bears and grizzlies at spitting distance, I will listen to people like Phil Shoemaker and others who have BTDT numerous times,and take his advise,and use something like a Partition as a baseline,going "up" from there.

At the same time,f we think such bullets are a handicap on that 500 yard elk,we are sorta....uh....mistaken.

I saw a pic of Burns with a brown bear. Perfect shot placement on an unaware critter is a far different scenario than the OP asked about. If I had to hammer a bear that was pissed off and charging, a Berger wouldn't be my choice. I think some guys that kill deer, elk and antelope with them, trust them too much. mtmuley

Yes with a proper bullet. I have used a big bore revolver in Alaska and it worked perfectly

I shot a running Oryx at 100 yards with a .300 Win Mag and a 168 grain Nosler Custom Competition. Hit it right on the shoulder and the result was spectacular.

The thing cartwheeled 3 times like Olga Corbett and bit the dust.

The bullet left the shoulder a mess and barely penetrated the vitals with shrapnel

Shot another Oryx with the same load the next year that dropped like a sack of potatoes. Messy as well.

I think there's something to be said for a bullet that dumps all of its energy and momentum in the animal as opposed to a bullet that may or may not expand fully, exits and deposits its last bit of energy and momentum in the dirt.

I'd feel confident with a Win Mag and 210 gr VLDs in bear country.

...but I'd rather be carrying a Maxus with a 10 round magazine loaded with slugs

The Berger may fail on a Grizzly or it may not , but why take chances with your life , use a proven bullet like the Barnes TSX, Nosler Partition or Swift A-Frame and at the range your life with a bear charge is on the line even one of these bullets in a 308 might not save your bacon when you may have only one shot before he is gnawing on your ass

VLDs have never failed (not counting the 22 cal 80gr, it won't get through) to punch through elk shoulders for me, both near and far. Elk are heavier boned than grizzly.

I have no qualms with VLDs in grizzly county. The 180gr VLD sure put the smash on this grizzly.



This one literally went feet up when the 180gr VLD punched both shoulders.

Seems that posting those ego-stroking hero pics kinda slowed down the Berger Bashing.

....hmmmmmm

I certainly agree with you, Bob. Even out of a 308, a 180 partition should do fine on elk to 500yds, and would fit in with the Shoemaker approach to bear bullets. I submit that there are others who have killed lots of bears too, who also add to the common knowledge. I don't believe in any one man as the sole authority on anything, so I read what I can get my hands on, and try things for myself if I want some empirical data.

Obviously, with big, dangerous beasts, there is no such thing as too dead, especially at spitting distance, but the question that was originally posted was framed around Bergers against bears, since that is what would be in the hunter's 308 already. I know the standard line here is 'use a tougher bullet, and a bigger caliber', but what specifically about the OP's setup won't do the job?

JohnBurns, what ranges and impact velocities were those bears shot at?