Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Griz Defense with Bergers

That isn't exactly unique to a single brand or style of hollowpoint. I'm not a huge fan of Barnes bullets, but I'll take them for hunting over a bullet that seems to be intended as a controlled failure design.

I'm trying to follow the logic here.....because Barnes have sometimes penciled, we therefore shoot Bergers into incoming grizzlies?

I guess there's nothing else out there except those two, huh?


Some of these bullet conversations get ridiculous.

I am almost certain one of the most amazing aspects of the Lewis and Clark trip was the fact they did not lose a single man on the entire expedition, to any cause.

They lost one guy, Floyd I think, to appendicitis or something similar.

"Controlled failure" hilarious!

You are correct, thank you for clearing that up. I have a booklet sitting right here put out by a museum that was showing L&C stuff and they say no one died... Obviously they are wrong.

You are show a bullet that looks to have not been propperly stabilized and hitting not point on, causing bending of the point and showing obvious signs of tumbling. I still call BS on the "penciling"

No dog in this fight and no offense John Burns, but I'm with Phil Shoemaker on this one.

After reading 20+ pages of this debate I recall the story of the 280 Ross. Back at the turn of the 20th Century, this was a highly touted round at high velocity. The problem was frangible bullets, not saying the Bergers are the same construction but similiar attributes, when used to stop DG charges, people ended up mauled and dead, as did the round.

You may not believe the two relate but there are principles that are the same.

If I hit Lotto and have the coin to hunt Brown Bear in Alaska, I will be booking with Phil and taking his advice bringing ammo loaded with Nosler Partitions or Barnes X Bullets, whichever shoots best in the gun I will be using.

You may have missed my post about the Berger smashing the near side shoulder of a bull elk and going on to shred the lungs and lodging in the skin on the far side.
I'm not real sure how much more to expect from a bullet.
But it is normal to resist change and the next new thing. Like them or not, Bergers are starting to get popular with hunters who want their quarry to take a quick dirt nap.
Somebody had to try Partitions first too.
PS, I do like "heavy for caliber" projectiles.

With a Berger that is probably the wisest advice I've seen and would be more comfortable with "heavy for bore" over a 155g VLD at 308 Win velocities.

But this (VVVV) might work very well also! I guess we'll never know for sure until somebody needs to try it.

I really can't believe I have to explain my post. Well, on second thought considering some involved, I do.

See the "LOL" at the end of the sentence? That means I'm Laughing Out Loud at the joke I made. I got it, but then again, I'm weird.

The story about the dude who shot the antelope with the 180 TSX twice and it still got away is fact, no matter if you want to believe it or not, I couldn't give a good schit. See that's where my above post comes in. I can picture the Barnes X bullets penciling and the bear running into the bush just like the antelope (those antelope are really tough to kill ), and the guys hunting running into trouble when they go in after him.

Why? Cuz it seems to happen with Barnes bullets more than any other in stories I hear first hand from friends who guide as well as many threads here on the 'Fire.

BTW those pictures of Barnes bullets are taken from the "Barnes Bullets For Elk" thread.
http://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbthreads/ubbthreads.php/topics/8150858/11

They didn't expand and penciled. They were posted by Shrapnel and his buddy Joshf303. They both said after that they pulled all the Barnes bullets and got rid of them. They'll never shoot another. Fotis also posted pics on the same thread of 4 Barnes X bullets that didn't expand.

Some of you also think that I believe that THE ONLY BULLET to shoot at a grizz is a Berger. Nothing could be further from the truth. While I think that most bullets will work just fine, I think the Berger will too.

This thread is kinda like a .223 deer thread where all the proponents say it's all about "placement" and all the naysayers say you need a bigger caliber. My views have changed on that as well.

I agree, Bob, some of these bullet threads are ridiculous. There is a lot of ridicule going on. I think they get absurd too, because people with no experience with a given bullet on a given size of animal wax authoritatively about why it won't work, can't work, and how it is dangerous to consider. All the while, others with experience are denigrated. When opposing viewpoints reach for hyperbole, nothing new is learned.

I find myself wondering what a discussion would look like if somebody asked, "Hey I've got an '06 loaded with 220 Partitions and I'm going after coastal Browns in heavy cover. Is this a good combo?"

I keep wanting to go back to the original question. There is no bear hunting happening. Nobody should be pursuing bears without a proper permit. Prevention from bear attack is the goal. Stopping an aggressive bear may be required, but the chances are slim. The question was centered on whether a particular gun, bullet would achieve this, if required. It has been redirected repeatedly, which is usual, and the discussion has been interesting, but I notice that we still find the pro- and anti-Berger camps.

WYCoyote,

I am not doubting your results or anybody else's. My point is up close and personal is different than normal shooting distance or in John Burn's case, shots 90% are not comfortable taking. High velocity with bullet characteristics such as the Berger would not be my choice up close and personal. Others have tried and did not make out well.

Who?

Standing by.

Really want to hear about an instance where a guy shot a bear "up close and personal" with a bullet similar in construction to a Berger Hunting VLD and "didn't make out too well".

Get a copy of "Alaska Bear" Tales and knock yourself out

Bob,

Remember the OP was about deer and elk hunting in Grizzly country. If we follow the logic to the conclusion then some here propose we only hunt deer and elk, while in Grizzly country, with cartridges and bullets ideal for close range encounters with wounded Alaskan Brown Bears.

My position is that I will use a bullet/cartridge that is ideal for deer and elk but would, in my opinion, be adequate for Grizzly defense.



ChipM,

No offense taken. A guy, the OP, asked a question on the internet. I gave my opinion.

My opinion was based on having seen 1 grizzly killed with a Berger VLD, personally killing a Grizzly with a Berger VLD, and hunting deer and elk with Berger VLDs in Grizzly country.

Lots of others also posted opinion. Some opinions, such as Phil's, were well reasoned, compelling and based on extensive real world experience. Other opinions were bases on the poster proclivity to doing "Korean dudes".

I really don't take offense from somebody who simply do not agree with me on a Hunting forum. Seems like the discussions might get pretty dull.



It's 3 AM in the morning and this is what is ratting around in your brain? Tough time sleeping?

Yeah, that's not the slightest bit creepy.

John I know why you use them.....you like them.

If you go back to the original post I had, I am talking high velocity, frangible bullets, not neccesarily a Berger. Go back and read the history of the 280 Ross and the lion hunters that were mauled and killed.

John,
I'm glad no offense and do understand you like the Bergers and are very successful with them. I guess if we go back 28 pages to the original question, I would rather have anything then nothing if faced with the situation described. IMHO though, I would want a bullet that has a proven track record, controlled expansion and retained weight.

Someone earlier mentioned the study done years ago by a couple of guys from I believe it was Federal Fish and Wildlife. I have it in an old Outdoor Life Book and it is a good read. Love to see the findings now with the bullets on the market, but one thing that was there is that the high velocity rounds did not fair well, with bullet technology today, I am sure the results may change a bit.

John. What range and impact velocities did those Bergers kill those bears?
And what shot angle and placement? Oh, what caliber n weight?