Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Griz Defense with Bergers

Exactly. I would feel well armed with a a Dixie 739 grain slug heat treated hard cast .730" diameter those things are amazing

When I worked at Yellowstone, stood next to Park Ranger and watched him try to finish a Bull Bison with Rem factory slugs out of a 12 Gauge.

He was shooting it in the head 2 times as I recall. Told the Ranger to shoot it behind the shoulder and it killed the Bison. Tough bull it was alive after a Mack truck hit it, truck was towed away!

I am tired of beating this dead horse, but since the general consensus is that Berger bullets are insignificantly constructed and can't be depended on at high impact speed or when interacting with bone, I wanted to post a bit of the thread I referred to earlier in this thread. The results seem at odds with the consensus.

After all the discussion here denigrating Bergers, it doesn't surprise me that many think them inadequate for a defensive situation against a bear. And if UncleJesse is not confident in them, then I would agree that they are a poor choice for him.

Cow bones for testing

Results

Bullet: .308 210gr Berger Hunting VLD
Penetration: 7" (7" is newspaper only. Total penetration was 16" (4" for meat at 5" of bone). All penetration measurements are only newspaper, please add 9" of bone/meat if you want total penetration.)
Weight retention: 57.6gr (27.5%)
Expansion diameter: .694"
Impact speed: ~2800fps

Picked up some of those 220 gr Nosler Partitions for my .30-06, and doggone, those things shoot pretty good! My "grizzly penetration test" was only a bunch of water-filled milk jugs, but the Nosler most assuredly killed a mess of them and came out looking pretty good. That's a Big .30 cal bullet. Really changes the whole look & feel of the .30-06 cartridge, compared to the pointy 165's I usually load.



Grizzly at close range. Not a comforting thought. I've hunted, camped, fished and backpacked around them quite a bit over the years and thankfully have as yet avoided a hostile bear. One was pretty grumpy though, when a bunch of us salmon fishermen woke him from his nap near the river!

BTW - I really appreciate the input from those here who have killed grizzlies. Good to learn from those who've done it vs those of us who just worry 'bout having to do it someday...

Guy

If a grizzly is charging you, how many shots do you think a guy will get off? How fast can an average hunter run the bolt?

He's gonna have a scoped rifle. The bear's gonna be in his face, fast. Not to mention the fact that most guys don't practice shooting from field positions with freshly soiled underwear.

I shot a coyote running in at me at 5 yards with a 3-9x on 9. All I could see was blurry fur.

Im thinking a large caliber handgun on your side while you have your deer/elk rifle full of .308 155 gr VLDs is the best solution to hunting in grizz country

Me?

Having seen them move, fast, I think the average hunter is going to be lucky to get one or two shots off before the grizz is on him. Depending on how far it has to travel, and how good a rifleman the hunter is.

I've carried a stout loaded .44 mag revolver in grizzly country, and hoped I never had to use it.

Quartering up my elk, high up in the Wind Rivers, we kept a wary eye on the tree line. Had been told that the bears there have learned that a rifle shot may well mean dinner. Rifle was loaded with 175 gr Nosler Partitions. I kept it handy while my pard went back to camp for the horses. Making all those trips down to the trail, each time carrying a quarter, I kept the rifle with me. Slept with the .44 revolver within reach too.

It is something those of us who travel grizzly country need to at least consider... That big "What if" question...

Guy

I just quick relied. It was for anyone who had a thought on it

I cannot begin to imagine carrying a handgun for backup when there is a rifle in my hands... Few shoot a handgun enough to be reasonably proficient. It is another thing entirely when someone actually hunts bears with the handgun... They probably have a pretty good idea how to run it.

The average guy afield with both is going to waste precious nanoseconds trying to decide between the two. Adding several pounds to the load is not going to help them get around, either. I would consider it a very bad decision in the real world to carry both.

The scope issue is just one of many reasons why I prefer fixed and/or low power scopes.

FWIW,

I witnessed the shooting of an interior Alaska, sow grizzly [6' approximately] with 7RM and Bergers [175 gr IIRC]......The shot was sharply down hill at 100 yards and the first bullet hit the spine in hump area briefly collapsing the bear. The bear rebounded instantly and was hit again before being put down by a 375.

During skinning of the bear, the first Berger was found against the vertebrae. The copper jacket had split lengthwise along a rifling mark and was open and nearly flat. The largest piece of the lead was very flat and thin resembling the splatter on floor below a pipe soldering effort.

You are free to draw your own conclusions!

Exactly. And those who think they may have trouble "aiming" a scoped rifle aren't going to have an easier time "aiming" a handgun. Either is most probably going to be more of a "pointing' than "aiming" proposition.

Handguns may have a place for those who run them well and enough, but a good bullet is the simple answer, the KISS answer, in this query.

The truth is they did a study in BC some years back that concluded bear attacks happen so fast the victims have no time to react.So it does not matter what bullet you have in the rifle you will not be able to use.here is an example.

Speed of bear attack shocks Michigan hunter
BY MATT MARKEY
BLADE OUTDOORS EDITOR
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Gary Detwiler was doing what every good hunter would do, helping his hunting partner track an elk.

The pair made their way through a rugged section of Idaho, near Island Park in the extreme northeast corner of the wide base of the state.

With the vast wilds of Beaverhead National Forest to the north and Yellowstone National Park to the east, they were hunting in the area of the Targhee National Forest, which sits on the continental divide, near the point where Montana, Wyoming, and Idaho meet.

Henry�s Fork Caldera, created by some of the same internal fires of the earth that sculpted much of Yellowstone, is a dominant feature in the region, as is Mount Jefferson, which shoots more than 10,000 feet toward the sky. Numerous trout streams cut threads through the craggy hillsides of the area, while forests blanket those slopes and spread down to wide, grassy meadows.

This is elk country, and that is why Detwiler, a 67-year-old hunter from Michigan, was there.

But if it�s elk country, then that also means it is very likely grizzly country, and that�s how the tables turned on the two hunters.

His bow hunting partner James Kindy had shot a big, six-by-six bull elk just before dark on the third day of their hunt. Not wanting to push a wounded animal, the pair decided to return the next morning to track the elk

They picked up the blood trail upon their return to the area and moved across a fairly open area with a few clumps of small pine trees scattered about. When they approached a brushy area, Detwiler thought he saw the downed animal.

�At first glance, I figured I was looking at the bull elk,� Detwiler said. �But I didn�t see any antlers, and then a fraction of a second later, all I saw was ears and teeth. I was maybe 12-feet away and that grizzly jumped on me in a flash.�

The bear bit into his arm in the bicep area and pierced his ribs. As quickly as it struck, the grizzly returned to the cover of the group of trees.

�I don�t know if the bear was just bedded down in that area and it reacted to us being there, or whether it had picked up on the elk coming by there the night before,� Detwiler said. �All I know is there was absolutely no time to react. You read about how fast these bears are and you hear about it, but you can�t imagine what the experience is like. You think you are going to die. Their speed, for an animal that big, is really amazing.�

Grizzly bears can reach more than 800 pounds, yet have bursts of speed up to 40 miles per hour. They eat just about anything � roots, berries, grasses, insects, fish, carrion, and many mammals, from small rodents to full-size moose and elk.

After Detwiler was attacked by the grizzly, he and his hunting partner had a four-mile hike back to their truck, and then about a 20-mile drive to the nearest medical clinic, located in tiny Ashton, Idaho.

�It was bleeding, but not bad enough that I didn�t think I could make it,� said Detwiler, who has been hunting that area for nearly two decades.

After Detwiler�s wounds were cleaned and sutured, Kindy returned to the site where they had been tracking the elk, and with the help of a couple of local hunters, continued the search. They did not find the bull elk, and they were not certain if the grizzly had claimed it or had just used the area to bed down.

Wildlife officials chose not to pursue the grizzly right away, since they determined that its actions were likely defensive in nature, either to protect the elk carcass or its territory. Warning signs were posted and patrols in the area increased to let other hunters or the public become aware of the presence of a grizzly.

Detwiler, who has been bow hunting for nearly 50 years, tried to continue to hunt, but found it was too difficult to draw his bow with his arm injured. Now back at his home in Midland, Detwiler said he will have to spend some time mulling over the destination for his next bow hunting trip, given what he sees as a dangerous increase in the grizzly bear population in the Idaho-Wyoming-Montana wilderness triangle.

�There�s more grizzlies there than before � people are afraid to go outside, and they can�t hike and they can�t bike and most of them won�t risk it hunting the area,� he said.

Grizzlies are protected by federal law in the lower 48 states, where they are designated as a threatened species. Estimates put the grizzly population in the lower 48 at about 1,200, with more than 30,000 in Alaska.

�I�ll have to think about it, but I�ll probably go back since we�ve had such good success there,� said Detwiler, who has put a couple of his trophies in the record books. �I�m getting older, so I�ve let more big ones go than I�ve shot in recent years. I still like to hunt them, but it�s getting so I don�t like to shoot them as much.�


Read more at http://www.toledoblade.com/MattMark...Michigan-hunter.html#7LBAfWE2LIiHoJRj.99

Oh good grief. Hunters have been stopping attacking animals, bears and others, with rifles for a very long time. It can be done, has been done, and will be done.

I'd imagine a fellow has to be right quick though!

Guy

The burgers are good sub 100 lb. deer and antelope bullets or for someone watching wind flags on a range. Pass the Barnes...

I would be very interested in the actual provenance for this particular study? If, done here in BC, it could be from one of the two "competing" groups currently involved in the controversy here regarding Grizzly hunting. So, assuming you have the title,ect., please post a link?

Concerning the OP's query, there is certainly a lot of opinion posted here and some seems a bit contradictory and some "facts" appear to be different in different posts.

However, since Phil Shoemaker, has often posted his opinion on bullets for bears, it seems to me that doing as he suggests and MD, whose credibility as with "BOBinNH", is simply beyond question, well, legitimate question, and going with the bullets that he uses.

I usually, by choice, hunt,hike, camp and fish alone and have done here for almost 50 years. When, I do carry a gun, I have developed "heavy for caliber" loads with NOSLER PARTITION bullets for all of my rifles, except my .220Swift. Based on some experience and the comments by those whom I respect, these work very well, are easily available and while costly, are not SO expensive that one cannot practice with some from each box to make SURE you can hit what you want to and operate your gun well.

I have Brenneke slugs for my two Benelli 12 bores, one a 14" model which is my "tent gun", as I sold my Redhawk.44M, because it is too much hassle to bother with the permits and I like to keep a short,powerful gun in my tent when sleeping. I have no illusions about these relative to my .338s, 9.3s or .375s, in performance, but, this is the best legal option I now have.

I hope Phil S. chimes in here, as he is the REAL expert and his comments on anything to do with any bears always interest me. If, he suggests a certain load for a given rifle that, IMO, is a VERY good place to start load development for your particular rifle, noting the usual caution concerning "starting" charges.

Again, IF that study IS from BC, I would like to see it, thanks.

I bow to, or stand behind these two fine gentleman. To me, if you are carrying a rifle, packing a handgun is senseless and a lot less punch.

Bob

I ALREADY have. Not too hard either!

kutenay... I'm with you, I'd like to see the actual "study" before giving it a nod.

The two peer-reviewed retrospective studies I know of comparing the success of bear defense with firearms vs pepper spray were, in my view, significantly flawed because they failed to take into account the basic differences in bear attacks on unarmed hikers/forestry workers and attacks on hunters. But there is no question that people CAN and DO defend themselves effectively with firearms at times.

I'd like to hear Phil Shoemaker's take on this. He's our resident bear-killing member, I'd like to know what he thinks. I have no comment to make on the Berger bullet for bear defense but would like to know his take.

I've not shot a charging bear, but I've been bluff-charged, and have had a lot of up-close exposure to bears over 30+ years in the course of my outdoor recreation when I lived in my native Alberta. I also did some bear-country biologist work when I was a college student. This latter job earned me a slot at a class where we shot "charging" bear targets with 12-gauge slugs... this was the same class all provincial F&G officers took, btw. [edited to correct error pointed out by Sitka Deer] We were trained to take the time to make ONE good shot, because there is likely not enough time for a second one unless you anchor the bruin with your first shot.

At that time (1975) Alberta wildlife officers carried 12-ga 870's as bear medicine. Last time I talked to a ranger on patrol in bear country, in 1996 in Peter Lougheed Provincial Park where there was a LOT of grizzly activity, he was carrying an iron-sighted 300 Win Mag. He told me they'd had some "poor outcomes" with the slug guns on grizzlies, so had upped the ante.

There is no question that as grizzly populations increase in the mountain west, the frequency of hunters getting into dangerous encounters with grizzlies has also increased. In some areas, as one other member posted earlier, grizzlies hear a rifle shot and their innate response is to think "Elk for supper!". They will and have killed hunters to claim a fresh carcass.

My take-away from all of this is that if I'm hunting ungulates in grizzly country, I would prefer to carry a rifle chambered for a cartridge that will work reliably on griz, and that rifle is going to be set up for close work but can be upped to higher power if an elk is spotted at distance. A .308 class or better rifle, topped with a 1-4X or 2-8X scope left on the lowest setting until a distance shot presents itself, would suffice. Heavy-for-caliber premium bullets are preferable; they'll work fine on elk or deer or moose too.

I would not choose to hunt alone in grizzly country, and I would definitely not field dress or pack meat alone.

As always on these bear threads, I strongly recommend Gary Shelton's books on bear behavior and defense against bear attacks. Ignorance of these magnificent animals' behavior has cost many a bear and many a hunter dearly, and ignorance is never an excuse for killing or being killed.

I think it speaks volumes.

Again no bash on Bergers and their forte SEEMS to be accuracy, high BC,great expansion(and even penetration!) where velocity has fallen off at distance...and not a thing wrong with that IMO.

Again, a tool for a purpose.

I can relate that a guy with his blood up can run a bolt gun pretty fast in the presence of a grizzly.

I can hit a barn with a handgun if it's right in front of me.

No way I'd be reaching for a handgun if I had a rifle...but I'm in the habit of carrying a handgun and it could be much needed in a case like this. Much needed as in if the situation got to the point where I was carrying a rifle and had to reach for the handgun, the handgun could be used to trace ownership to determine the body was mine.