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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,177 Likes: 20 |
In recent years Phil has used the 220-grain Partition when he's carried a .30-06 for backing up bear hunters, because he's tested a bunch of .30-caliber bullets and it penetrates deeper than any other. But he did use the 200 Partition for many years before the 220 was introduced.
So far nobody has suggested the Timothy Treadwell method of grizzly defense: Talk to them like they're your friend!
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
10-4!
BTW, a buddy of mine works for the Government. They did all kinds of testing with different firearms. They shot old cars in different locations on the vehicle. Engine block, doors etc....
He said the only thing that penetrated BOTH DOORS and exited was a 12 gauge slug. I have never tried to kill a car by shooting it. I have used a bunch of slugs on critters. I will always choose a modest rifle bullet over a slug... I don't work for the government, but I do keep a 12 at camp for problems that might arise. This 12 ga Brenneke did not make it through both doors of a modest-sized (problem-sized) browny/grizzly. No big bones were hit. However, big muscle can have challenges of it own. ![[Linked Image]](http://www.hunt101.com/data/552/medium/IMG_03192.JPG) At a distance of around 30 yards, he took the slug basically broadside through the muscles of both shoulders and kept going, albeit with much less enthusiasm. He did not give up, however, before finally taking a pair of 300-320 (jacketed and cast) bullets moving at around 1550 fps from a 45 Colt carbine. That was a bear that refused to stay away from our cabin and, after about 7-8 previous attempts to scare it away non-lethally by firearm, I finally, at 2:30 in the morning, resorted to lethal force. There is an obvious difference between shooting an animal at rest and at will versus shooting one which is not at rest and which does not allow one a calculated shot. Give me something that can make a long hole. As for carry ammo and hunting ammo. If there are potentially bears or other concerns, I'd rather carry with defense ammo in the mag. That puts me in good stead for a quick shot if needed at either possibility. If I should have the opportunity for a longer shot where the advantage of a niche bullet might be preferred, its a simple matter of changing out the mag contents. (Or just shove a long-ranger up the pipe.)
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
You really need to double check the Original Poster's Post. He is hunting deer and elk and happens to be in Grizz country.
Are you suggesting he hunt deer and elk with a .375 H&H loaded with 260 grain monometals "just in case" he runs into a bear?
Like I said, for Grizz I'd rather be toting a 12ga with an extended magazine loaded with slugs. But if I'm hunting deer and elk I'm not going to be carrying that, am I?
IME, a bullet that expands rapidly like the Berger, Nosler BT, Sierra Game King or any other like them seem to have more "knock down power" or "DRT Value" or "stopping power" even on marginal hits on game.
Having used a shotgun with slugs on a Kodiak bear during a followup through the alders at very close range I have to say I am more impressed with what it did than I should have been... I would never do it again if I have any choice in the matter. It killed a wounded 8 1/2' bear but it took a lot of shooting and shucking to get it done. When I lived in Alaska the Alaska Fish And Game rated slugs as a poor choice on big bears.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,902 Likes: 67
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Jun 2011
Posts: 10,902 Likes: 67 |
Thanks SD!
I've seen these videos of guys being charged by leopards and lions and the only thing that goes through my mind is that if it were me, I'd really like to have a 12ga auto loaded with 00 buck or slugs and a BIG magazine full!
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Joined: Jul 2001
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 60,177 Likes: 20 |
And the low rating was because of poor penetration of full-caliber slugs.
There are some very good slug loads available today, but most people don't get that analytical.
“Montana seems to me to be what a small boy would think Texas is like from hearing Texans.”
John Steinbeck
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,646 Likes: 1 |
How far did those slugs penetrate?
I wouldn't think big, slow, soft projectiles like those would penetrate deep enough in a big, tough critter like a Kodiac.
DF Sorry, I missed this earlier. In full frontal mode one typical Foster type slug hit near the clavicle traveled through a couple "ribs on edge" to the diaphragm, roughly before taking a hard right turn and traveling through the bear literally at 90 degrees to original shot and exited just behind the ribs on the far side. Shot was under 10 yards in tight, tight cover. That was the really impressive slug. Had it been right up the middle the bear would have been dead much faster. Another crossed at about 45 degrees through the chest starting off to the side and exiting well behind the opposite side leg. The bear was turning at the shot and total penetration was about 3' or so, missing bones and just plowing through lungs. Third was side to side through the ribs and just under the hide. IIRC a fourth was through the ribs a bit above the first and traveled down into the sternum. It stayed in, too. OlBlue shot his bear with the 375 as he stated a few posts back and one of his 200gr NPT went in the rump, traveled full-length, exiting EXACTLY through the ear hole without any damage to the hide at all! His bear was also the first one I boned a scapula on and took pictures of a knife through the bone... I have a tag for this coming spring in Uganik Bay again and the 375AI with 270gr X bullets is going along again...
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,646 Likes: 1 |
Gotta disagree with much of what you are saying... First, all leg bones in brown bears are relatively lighter than any ungulate and by a lot. It is tough, flexible stuff, not the huge bones of other critters.
Second, why are you worrying about shooting a charging bear in the ball of the humerus? They usually come straight at ya... At least when charging...
Sitka Deer, I'm looking at the humerus from both a brown bear and a bull elk right now. The brown bear humerus is shorter, and shaped quite a bit differently from the elk. It reflects the heavy muscle attachment consistent with being a bear. While trying to take into account the very different shape, I can not see where the humerus of the bear is much lighter than that of the elk. This brown bear humerus is heavy but different. I do not have the lower leg bones from either animal, and as such I can not say exactly how those bones would compare. But the upper leg bone is pretty stout for both of these animals. If a bullet hit there in either case, it might be a challenging target for a fast expanding bullet. This is the only brown bear humerus I have, and as such it is the only one I have to compare with this elk humerus. I assume both to be typical, but possibly that is not the case. This brown bear humerus and scapula came from near Sitka, and was not shot by me. I am at a loss to explain why what I see seems different than what you have described. Is there that much difference between the bones of the coastal brown bear and the interior grizzly?? You have the experience with the Alaskan bears that I do not. I am willing to believe you about the leg bones in the bear, but what I have in hand does not look the way I am imagining when you describe things. As to your second point, I fully agree with you. The ball of the humerus is not where someone should be shooting, especially not with a directly incoming bear. My point is that if things are not going right, with both bear and shooter in a dynamic situation, a shooter might have to put a bullet through that area, and if so, a stout bullet would be a big help. Clearly that is not the first choice, nor even a likely choice, on where to hit an incoming bear. Fortunately I have never had to make that choice! After looking at your picture of the two bones laid out I have to admit my memory and/or scaling abilities was off when comparing the bones without having them side-by-side.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,282
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 14,282 |
Go in the willow bush and cut yourself a bear switch.Problem solved.
Its all right to be white!!
Stupidity left unattended will run rampant
Don't argue with stupid people, They will drag you down to their level and then win by experience
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Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,178 Likes: 5
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 37,178 Likes: 5 |
How far did those slugs penetrate?
I wouldn't think big, slow, soft projectiles like those would penetrate deep enough in a big, tough critter like a Kodiac.
DF Sorry, I missed this earlier. In full frontal mode one typical Foster type slug hit near the clavicle traveled through a couple "ribs on edge" to the diaphragm, roughly before taking a hard right turn and traveling through the bear literally at 90 degrees to original shot and exited just behind the ribs on the far side. Shot was under 10 yards in tight, tight cover. That was the really impressive slug. Had it been right up the middle the bear would have been dead much faster. Another crossed at about 45 degrees through the chest starting off to the side and exiting well behind the opposite side leg. The bear was turning at the shot and total penetration was about 3' or so, missing bones and just plowing through lungs. Third was side to side through the ribs and just under the hide. IIRC a fourth was through the ribs a bit above the first and traveled down into the sternum. It stayed in, too. OlBlue shot his bear with the 375 as he stated a few posts back and one of his 200gr NPT went in the rump, traveled full-length, exiting EXACTLY through the ear hole without any damage to the hide at all! His bear was also the first one I boned a scapula on and took pictures of a knife through the bone... I have a tag for this coming spring in Uganik Bay again and the 375AI with 270gr X bullets is going along again... So, I gather slug penetration was pretty good, projectile just not staying on course like the rifle. DF
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Joined: Oct 2011
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Campfire Greenhorn
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Campfire Greenhorn
Joined: Oct 2011
Posts: 89 |
Gotta disagree with much of what you are saying... First, all leg bones in brown bears are relatively lighter than any ungulate and by a lot. It is tough, flexible stuff, not the huge bones of other critters.
Second, why are you worrying about shooting a charging bear in the ball of the humerus? They usually come straight at ya... At least when charging...
Sitka Deer, I'm looking at the humerus from both a brown bear and a bull elk right now. The brown bear humerus is shorter, and shaped quite a bit differently from the elk. It reflects the heavy muscle attachment consistent with being a bear. While trying to take into account the very different shape, I can not see where the humerus of the bear is much lighter than that of the elk. This brown bear humerus is heavy but different. I do not have the lower leg bones from either animal, and as such I can not say exactly how those bones would compare. But the upper leg bone is pretty stout for both of these animals. If a bullet hit there in either case, it might be a challenging target for a fast expanding bullet. This is the only brown bear humerus I have, and as such it is the only one I have to compare with this elk humerus. I assume both to be typical, but possibly that is not the case. This brown bear humerus and scapula came from near Sitka, and was not shot by me. I am at a loss to explain why what I see seems different than what you have described. Is there that much difference between the bones of the coastal brown bear and the interior grizzly?? You have the experience with the Alaskan bears that I do not. I am willing to believe you about the leg bones in the bear, but what I have in hand does not look the way I am imagining when you describe things. As to your second point, I fully agree with you. The ball of the humerus is not where someone should be shooting, especially not with a directly incoming bear. My point is that if things are not going right, with both bear and shooter in a dynamic situation, a shooter might have to put a bullet through that area, and if so, a stout bullet would be a big help. Clearly that is not the first choice, nor even a likely choice, on where to hit an incoming bear. Fortunately I have never had to make that choice! After looking at your picture of the two bones laid out I have to admit my memory and/or scaling abilities was off when comparing the bones without having them side-by-side. Just to provide the photo and info to other readers... Here is a photo of the humerus of a Wyoming 6x6 bull elk and same bone from a Sitka brown bear of unknown age. The elk humerus weighs in at 2 lbs. The brown bear humerus weighs 2 lbs 2 oz. The bear humerus had been immersed intermittently in salt water for some significant period of time, so its weight may or may not be correct now. Either one would represent a significant challenge for a fast opening bullet. ![[Linked Image]](http://wildcountryphotos.files.wordpress.com/2013/10/brown-bear-elk-humerus.jpg)
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Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,514
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Feb 2012
Posts: 5,514 |
Been there, done that. If I'm hunting where there's grizz, I'll want a stout bullet. As it's been mentioned, when it happens, it happens fast and your more in a wing shooting mode than "pickin a spot." 8 1/2 brown bear at ~ 5 yards, coming like a freight train. 300 Weatherby with a Barnes X; don't remember if it was a 165/168 or a 180 grain through the shoulder. First shot knocked her down, rolled her downhill a bit which I think saved me/us (we were standing on a small knoll). I jammed my rifle somehow, cleared it and knocked her down for good at about 50 yards. Did I mention my partner froze?  My 2 cents. Bob
Bob
Enjoy life now -- it has an expiration date.
~Molɔ̀ːn Labé Skýla~
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,309 Likes: 28
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,309 Likes: 28 |
When I lived in Alaska the Alaska Fish And Game rated slugs as a poor choice on big bears.
Curious as that's what F&G uses on problem bear calls here. It may be personal preference though. IIRC, 12 ga slugs are what troopers used when they went looking for Timmy Treadstain.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,309 Likes: 28
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,309 Likes: 28 |
added: there is a difference between deer fosters and Brennekes. But, here comes Klik to argue that! 
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
Bob -
Your .02 cents, Saved Your Bacon. Money well spent IMO.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
ironbender -
Not being smart. How many troopers carry B G rifles ?
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,309 Likes: 28
Campfire Oracle
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Campfire Oracle
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 86,309 Likes: 28 |
There is that. I don't know what they have available to them, or what they could have picked up before boarding the chopper.
The F&G guys locally respond from the office and 'could' have thumpers when they leave the office.
If you take the time it takes, it takes less time.
--Pat Parelli
American by birth; Alaskan by choice.
--ironbender
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Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Sep 2010
Posts: 19,179 |
10/4...
Normally I think of Shotguns and M16s. (Not counting handguns)
Don't know if BG rifles are available either.
jwall- *** 3100 guy***
A Flat Trajectory is Never a Handicap
Speed is Trajectory's Friend !!
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 17,491 |
added: there is a difference between deer fosters and Brennekes. But, here comes Klik to argue that! I can't disagree there at all....and I did expect to see that Brenneke landing: "sploosh" way out beyond that bear's far side in the Bering Sea. That said, and given the facts as I saw them, I can only think that soft tissue ain't always soft nor easy for bullet encounters. (Ironically, one of the finishers was a Sierra 300 .451 SP, and we all know that Sierras blow up - which is evidently also what happened when I shot my first bear with a 300 Gameking and a 375 H&H....but I don't know; it went out the back side and beyond.  )
Sometimes, the air you 'let in'matters less than the air you 'let out'.
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Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,646 Likes: 1
Campfire Kahuna
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Campfire Kahuna
Joined: Feb 2001
Posts: 50,646 Likes: 1 |
How far did those slugs penetrate?
I wouldn't think big, slow, soft projectiles like those would penetrate deep enough in a big, tough critter like a Kodiac.
DF Sorry, I missed this earlier. In full frontal mode one typical Foster type slug hit near the clavicle traveled through a couple "ribs on edge" to the diaphragm, roughly before taking a hard right turn and traveling through the bear literally at 90 degrees to original shot and exited just behind the ribs on the far side. Shot was under 10 yards in tight, tight cover. That was the really impressive slug. Had it been right up the middle the bear would have been dead much faster. Another crossed at about 45 degrees through the chest starting off to the side and exiting well behind the opposite side leg. The bear was turning at the shot and total penetration was about 3' or so, missing bones and just plowing through lungs. Third was side to side through the ribs and just under the hide. IIRC a fourth was through the ribs a bit above the first and traveled down into the sternum. It stayed in, too. OlBlue shot his bear with the 375 as he stated a few posts back and one of his 200gr NPT went in the rump, traveled full-length, exiting EXACTLY through the ear hole without any damage to the hide at all! His bear was also the first one I boned a scapula on and took pictures of a knife through the bone... I have a tag for this coming spring in Uganik Bay again and the 375AI with 270gr X bullets is going along again... So, I gather slug penetration was pretty good, projectile just not staying on course like the rifle. DF Yes, in this one case they worked fairly well... Far better than expected and far better than I have seen in the many other critters I have shot with slugs. That is the rub... If a slug will stay inside a broadside deer it does not give me a lot of confidence for bear use.
Mark Begich, Joaquin Jackson, and Heller resistance... Three huge reasons to worry about the NRA.
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Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Jan 2007
Posts: 35,900 |
Been there, done that. If I'm hunting where there's grizz, I'll want a stout bullet.
As it's been mentioned, when it happens, it happens fast and your more in a wing shooting mode than "pickin a spot."
8 1/2 brown bear at ~ 5 yards, coming like a freight train. 300 Weatherby with a Barnes X..... Hope for the best; but prepare for the worst.
The 280 Remington is overbore.
The 7 Rem Mag is over bore.
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