Home Forums Reloading Bullet Casting why the reluctance to try cast projectiles

Ive been casting and shooting bullets for most of .35-45-58 caliber rifles for 4 decades, if properly done and loaded for a velocity range that's appropriate there's been excellent results, in fact in many cases I find I have a difficult time duplicating both velocity and accuracy with jacketed bullets.
So, why is there the reluctance of a good many people to try cast projectiles ? now I can understand many guys don,t want to get into casting, for various reasons.
but there's certainly a wide selection of commercially available options.
once you find out the ease of use of those cast bullets,and the potential reduction in cost I can,t see why its not a more popular option.
about 35 years ago I had purchased a marlin 45/70 and at that time I decided to get into casting bullets for that rifle. Id been casting for about 10 years prior, but just for hand gun ammo, as at that time I had heard that velocity's over about 1300fps would not work with cast projectiles. but after doing some research and some experimentation, I soon found I could load 350 grain cast/gas-checked slugs in my 45/70 to be very accurate at up to 1800 plus fps, if I sized and lubed the bullets correctly, and the last bit of doubt fell when I shot my first elk with a 400 grain hard cast bullet and he dropped instantly.
I later found that the 350 grain weight cast 45/70 bullets worked even better.

http://www.neihandtools.com/catalog/index.html
I found this bullet to be especially accurate in my marlin 45/70 over 45 grains oF IMR 4198, Im not sure what velocity youll get in your rifle but cast from 95% wheel weights and 5% tin,well lubed its accurate,and it shoots thru deer,hogs and elk real well with expected results..very dead game

http://www.handloads.com/loaddata/default.asp?Caliber=45-70&Weight=All&type=rifle&Source


this nei design works well in my brother in laws marlin 357 mag carbine

If you start casting bullets regularly youll find , as your speed picks up, that you must wait for the SPRUE, or over-fill lead on the molds cut-off plate to change appearance as it cools before you open the mold to allow the bullet to drop out or the bullets deform as they are still semi hard ,the lead alloy doesn,t fully get solid for a few seconds after the mold releases them, in fact that they normally come out of the mold rather soft and easily deformed for the first few seconds,if you cast bullets as rapidly as possible, dropping them on a soft cotton towel reduces the deformed culls , that get damaged while dropping, that might hit previous cast bullets but theres an option that works better. dropping hot cast bullets in water quench both cools and reduces the impact velocity as they reach the bottom of a bucket youll use but Ive found the less common and taller 7 gallon buckets with both a taller column of water and greater mass seems to work better than the more typical 5 gallon bucket.
a typical 5 gallon bucket holds about 4 gallons of liquid and the bullets fall thru about 18" of water , the taller 7 gallon bucket adds at least 6"-8" more cooling distance and on larger 300-500 plus grain bullets this seems to help reduce culls)scrap quality bullets cast) and allows you to cast a bit faster.
water quench also tends to make some alloys with tin and antimony harden and work better.









[img]http://www.grumpysperformance.com/7gal3.jpg[/img]
the 5 gallon buckets not as effective in my experience as the taller 7 gallon buckets

Shhh, it's hard enough to come by ww's anymore, don't need any more competition

To me casting was a natural extension to the reloading hobby. I can't really imagine not casting my own bullets.

I think the one reluctance has to do with the fear of, or past experiences with leading. When reloading jackted bullets it's generally as simple as measure powder, seat bullet and shoot. Increase/decrease powder charge to tune for accuracy.

When it comes to leading, there seams to be alot of contradictory information and views which can put off someone who just wants to shoot with as little trouble as possible. When it comes to the causes of leading, there is no simple formula and the solution to eliminate leading in one gun can cause leading in a different gun.

On the upside there is lots of good information out there and eager experienced casters who will gladly stear you in the right direction. There also seems to have been a renaissance in in the past 5-10 years were the selection and availability of production, limited run and custom molds is unmatched to the past 100 years. Not to mention a variety of machines to semi to fully automate casting and lube/sizing.

It's dangerous! Lead and arsenic fumes are deadly. The risk of fire and debilitating, permanent injury is high.

You can't watch TV, drink beer, text your buds and surf the internet while casting boolits! It takes way to much time to make 500 bullets than to just credit card Midway for some non-leading high tech perfect mono-metal bullets. You only need 50 of them to become expert class shooter!

I am not buying lead, molds, pieces and parts as we speak to begin casting my own 45acp, 45/70, 38/357, 338RCM! (I'm 55) because it's too dang scary, and boring. I can't see why anyone would cast...

BTW my bro, 53, talked me into it.

Steve
Orygun

Indeed. I ran into a guy who is convinced that putting a couple lead bullets down his bore will ruin it forever for jacketed bullets. There are so many old wive's tales, urban legends, half-truths, and outright lies floating around concerning guns in general and cast bullet shooting in particular that I often wonder if we still live in the Dark Ages.

Visit the Cast Bullet Association website. Good info and major league help, without the drama and much of the bad grammar that crops up on Cast Boolits.

Guessing there are many reasons it isn't universally popular. Probably a lot like the reasons more people don't handload. Startup costs, volume of shooting, on & on. I've purchased a fair number of lead bullets in my day, but the only ones worth beans have been Hornady production. Small business suppliers of cast bullets haven't worked for me a single time.

I gave up casting when my children were born, the wife did not want lead fumes anywhere around the house. I purchase cast bullets from local suppliers, ask them for their best price. Last time a 100K order resulted in minimum pricing, in state shipping in Priority Mail cartons kept shipping down. The 100K order was split smoung several shooting buddies. I have a guy that will cast "special" bullets for ome if I provide the mold which then becomes his property. He gives me his best pricing for repeat orders. All this works for me, I cast for many years. Culled lead from the gun club berm and melted and cast outdoors.

Lead fumes never bothered me, bothered me, bothered me, bothered me, b

well guys I just got unplugged from a IV chelation treatment because I didn't use proper sense when I cast boolits in the years past. my serum lead levels are off the chart and around the back of the page. costs me 150 bucks per treatment and I have 2 a week. guess what? now that I'm unplugged i'm going down to my gun room and cast some 200g 357's to squeeze down to 351 for my 1907 Winchester. casting is like breathing for me and always will be. so when I die dig me up and melt me down. should be good for a couple shots anyway.

How did you get your lead levels up casting? Are you not washing your hands & touching your mouth? Perhaps stirring up lead dust on the bench?

I've been casting for 45 years, much of it in admittedly poorly ventilated conditions, and have never attained readable levels of lead in my blood (and due to other medical conditions I have blood work done on a regular basis). I take great care to avoid hand-mouth contact until I've washed my hands is about the extent of my precautions, and have never once worn a respirator. I don't advocate such lackadaisical attitudes, I'm just saying...

Poured lead myself since '73, commercially beginning '01. I use very little ventilation but I'm very careful with my hands & lead dust. Have my levels checked every 6 months & I'm a 3 & have been for a few years now.

well it took 45 years of sloppy action on my part. reclaiming 1000's of pounds of lead from any and all possible source. started when I was a kid helping my father lead pipe joints and finished with 2000 lbs of sheathed drywall from a dental school. that also got me a dose of uranium. discovered they film coat the lead with uranium to catch runaway xray particles. some of my levels probably came from fluxing without good ventilation.

About all I shoot in my handguns though I buy mine as I do not have the time to cast my own.

creeker, glad your levels are low. my highest was 7.7 and now are at 5.2. gaining on it

Many of the "younger" generation I know aren't concerned about "lead fumes" or harming anything. They're not interested in anything that requires much time or any degree of concentration, or has any less than instant gratification. Their mental activities run towards gaming their cell phones, sexting, Lady Gaga and dreaming of what they're going to do when they get a job that pays them big bucks regardless of having nothing useful to offer a potential employer

All meaning our professional education system is moving our kids into the docile mental PC drone mass they've long sought. Such "kids" do make a solid voter base for the liberal politicians who seek to rule rather then governand, as such; they aren't much for firearms.

you nailed it boomtube.

They will make dandy cast bullet targets. Irony and poetry in one verse.

Nice post and pictures, thanks. I like water quenching also.

Jerry

I would like to share with you all, a few facts (a story) if you will about my casting experience. I began casting lead bullets around 1972, with a few of my buddies from the local gun shop in Azusa California. We used mostly recovered bullets, and wheel weights. When we were very lucky we would get lino type metal from one of the local newspapers, as they were happy to have it hauled away. Now to today, we are still casting mostly for hand guns, have a casting machine called a Master Caster, which is very fast and efficient. We also drop our own shot. We still use what ever lead we can find or scrounge up, mostly wheel weights. So for the past 41 years, I have been casting and handling lead, more in an evening than most people are ever exposed to in a lifetime. When all this furor about lead came about a couple years ago, some Doctor in South Dakota, had proved all the donated game meat was tainted with lead, and should and was thrown away. He was proved to be a fraud latter. I then became concerned, as I had been around so much lead for all these years. Couldn't wait to get to the doctor, and have my lead level checked. You know what, mine is below average!! Think of that 41 years of casting and smelting lead and lead by products, and I am not in any danger. Can't say why, other than our procedures, must lend themselves to a safe practice. I guess if you eat it, or are shot it may be dangerous to you, I would guess someone using a product with possible danger would take the proper precautions, which I guess we have over the years.

Jerry

If you like to shoot, and who doesn't, the only way to go is to reload your own and that includes casting and sizing/lubing lead bullets. I started that back in 1972 and have thoroughly enjoyed it. I've found my cast bullets properly sized for the chamber in a revolver and to the groove diameter or .001" over in a rifle will give a jacketed bullet a run for their money. A shining example of what cast bullets using the proper alloy for the chamber pressure of a given pistol/revolver/ rifle is capable of...

A 12 shot group from the M29 44 Magnum with 260 gr custom mould and 10 gr of HS-6 at about 15 yards.



This one from a S&W 1911 and a 200 gr SWC...that's 25 shots!



I'd be hard pressed to do better with factory jacketed bullets. I'm not worried about lead exposure. Hell, chemicals in food will kill me before that will.

I bet you'd be hard pressed to take any average kid to a range, give them proper instruction on gun safety and handling and let them shoot a firearm and have them leave with a ho-hum attitude. Most kids will take the real deal over video games given the opportunity. Sadly most kids are never given the opportunity.

People don't cast because it requires effort, thought and time away from pro rasslin, opera and because you cannot shoot them at 4000 FPS

Mornin' Gents,

I've just re established on-line capability, this devil box has been giving me FITS.

Just prior to it's last crash, we were all shooting breeze on thread elsewhere on this great site. There's some kinda' neat casting lore, and tech, and innovation all through it.

Here's a

link: https://www.24hourcampfire.com/ubbth..._Kansas_Uncas_and_the_30_40_#Post8395811

O'm hoping to play with the mold blocks pictured / discussed there a bit more later today, and get a few more pics, too. If and when caught up, will post em' on a thread here.

Best Regards, and Happy New Year to all !

GTC

That's how it works around here.

Lot of people is absolutely sure lead kills on touch - same as mercury or asbestos.

If ammo gets more expensive and harder to find, there may be no alternative to casting.

I'm 34 and have been casting for about 7 years now. I thoroughly enjoy the activity and challenge of casting, as well as the final product on target. When I have done my part with sizing properly and have a good load, my cast loads shoot just as well as my jacketed loads out to at least 200 yds. I've hunted with then in .35 and .45 calibers and hope to get a deer with the .30-40 Krag and a 311299HP next fall.

Why don't more cast? Good question, probably the same reason they don't reload.

"Why should I reload? I can buy steel case ammo for my AR-47 and AK-15 cheap!

"I don't have time to reload." he said as he laid on the sofa watching a ballgame and surfing the 'net on his Smartphone.

Like others have said, most folks nowadays want to find what they need through e-shopping, buy it with their credit cards, then resume their inactive activities.

Too, the nonsense about lead poisoning probably scares others away.

35WN

After some consideration I have concluded they don't cast for altruistic reasons. They want us to have all the lead. After Doomsday they can grovel at our feet and criticize the new robber barons

....yes, and call us "hoarders" because we have more lead and ammunition than they.

I know guys who don't cast or reload simply because they haven't a place. I began with a very simple set up so it can be done but storing a casting set up in one or two bedroom rented apartment isn't easy. Even if one has a balcony on which to cast you still have the neighbors to deal with. It's easy for us who own "space" to cast & load but it's not for the city dwellers who most times are lacking in space & privacy, even driving many miles to shoot & even then having to shoot inside. I feel for them & thankful I've been blessed not to suffer any of the above.

Indeed. I'm one of those who lives in a small apartment. Luckily I can have my casting setup at work, so it's just a matter of staying over to do a little casting or driving five minutes on a Saturday or Sunday. (My workplace is a one-man shop serving the needs of the science labs of a small college.) Were it not for that, I would be out front of where I live, casting in the open air- which I did before I got this gig.

Good points. Sometimes I forget how blessed I am to have an almost unlimited amount of space in which ti cast and reload.

35WN

35WN I'm not disagreeing with your former statement that some do lay on the couch & spend too much time on the keyboard so to speak. You are correct in this. I also know people with hoards of lead, molds, powder, primers, brass & enough long & short guns do anything they like but don't fire a 100 rounds a year even though they can shoot on their own property. Go figure.

I am GLAD more people don't cast- more lead and molds for me!

But seriously- I have introduced several people to casting. Sure- they all are interested but only one has shown even a remote desire to cast. They sure don't mind shooting my ammo with cast bullets, either, because it shoots better than anything they can buy.

Same thing for reloading. The one guy has set up his dillon and a Big Max I gave him. He is rocking along reloading. With 5 kids and a professional practice he doesn't have time to cast but does have a few thousand rounds of ingots so far. He does have a Magma 40 lb pot so it won't be long now before he is turning out the bullets.

Casting has to be a desire on the end-user's part. You can't just introduce it to someone. They have to WANT it.

I suspect part of the reason more people don't cast is that too many articles and books make it sound more complicated than it really is, and also mention more equipment than is really necessary to get started.

I think Mule Deer is pretty much on with his post.

There are casters who can quote you what mix they used with different bullets and some are very particular about the ratios used in their bullets.

And then there is me. I started out many years ago using straight wheel weights and pretty much stayed right there. I will, now that I've read on this forum, throw a piece of tin into the mix every once in a while and will admit to feeling pretty smug about it but I don't try to rise above my laziness to a degree that would draw notice from curious bystanders. I melt 'em and mould 'em.

I think you'll find as i have that a 4%-5% tin added to wheel weights makes a very noticeable difference in the appearance and the ability of the bullets to rivet yet remain relatively intact after expanding on impact.
you will also find dropping them into a 7 gallon bucket of water filled about 7/8 full tends to make a better quality bullet , I generally cast about 10lbs-20lbs of bullets at a time then pour out the water and spread the bullets out on a beach towel, separate the few culls and bits of casting scrap that you always get and then dry the bullets and lube size them.

Yep. If a guy has a mold, a pile of wheel weights, and an empty soup can to melt them in with a lip bent into it so as to pour directly into the mold, he's in business. Add a Lee push through sizing die and a stick of bullet lube and he can make as many bullets as his little heart desires. That's exactly how I got started 45 years ago, only I had a home made push through die. Really, a guy could outfit himself like that and not bother with more sophisticated equipment and keep himself shooting cheaply for a long time.

gnoahhh,

I've even found that sizing bullets can be a waste of time. Just did it again this past month when casting some .22 bullets, using Lyman mold 225438. Wheelweight bullets come out of the mold measuring .225" and weighing 43.5 grains.

This is a gas-check model so I tried three variations, all lubed with Lee Alox: as they came from the mold, sized with gas-check, and sized only. From-the-mold bullets shot most accurately, with 5-shot groups averaging a little under an inch at 50 yards from my .22 Hornet. The sized bullets did around 1.5 inches.

I've had this happen with a number of cast bullets, both in rifles and handguns. Probably half the cast-bullet loads I use are with unsized bullets, but I REALLY found it nice with these .22 bullets. Just cast 'em, roll 'em in Alox, let dry overnight and load 'em up!

Agreed, John. That mirrors a lot of my experiences too. Again with the Hornet, the molds I have all produce bullets at .225". I run them through the .225 sizer merely to install the gas check and lube them. (I never cared much for liquid alox, but that's just me being me.) Ditto my favorite .30 molds and my favorite .30 cast bullet shooting rifles. The molds pop them out at .310 which serendipitously is the diameter I need in those rifles. Again, a trip through the lubrisizer .310 die to lube and GC them leaves them essentially as-cast.

Running them through a matching sizer die does have another little benefit. Molds from previous generations were notorious for producing bullets slightly out of round (and current generation molds aren't totally immune) and a trip through a 'friendly diameter' die to iron things out a bit doesn't hurt.

At the risk of totally derailing this thread:

A Hornet I'm playing with has a real oddball bore. It is nominally a 5.6x35R, German stalking rifle, 8�" twist, for which Hornet dies work just dandy for handloading. I initially slugged the bore and came up with a .222" groove diameter, the slug being pushed through from the breech. My initial experiments had me sizing my bullets at .223"- just as a starting point to get me shooting it. Accuracy was pretty good at 50 yards- 3/4"-1" with 50-55 grain cast bullets. Then, I finally got around to doing a chamber cast and had my eyes opened- the throat is .225", and the grooves naturally start out at that. Slugs pushed through the bore part-way to incremental distances and tapped back out confirm the fact that it is a tapered bore, uniformly so from throat to muzzle as near as I can tell. Aha! By switching to doing the as-cast thing at .225", groups shrank by 1/4"+ at 50 yards.

Next experiment is to be with breech seating. I made a nifty little breech seating tool, and have acquired a truly ancient 225438 mold that actually casts a tapered bullet (probably by accident, but maybe not) that allows for neat insertion into the leade. But that's a story for another time...

Just goes to show, following "rules of thumb" can often lead to very good results, probably even sufficient satisfaction so as to preclude further testing. But, investigating the true dimensions of one's chamber/throat/bore dimensions and selecting a bullet to match (which includes size, shape, and alloy) is how the nth degree of cast bullet accuracy is achieved.

Or, just melt a bunch of lead in a soup can with a propane torch and have a ball!

I've had very good results with Alox at velocities up to 1200 fps or so, which is all I was looking for in this Hornet--and all I normally want out of a handgun. Just being able to roll the bullets around and then shoot saves a LOT of time!

That's interesting about your 5.6x35R bore. I've found tapered bores in a number of German rifles, including my Sauer 12-gauge side-by-side.

why so close? stretch it out a bit and see how they do.
Seriously, that's some good shooting!

like this, yep that 6 shots, 5 in one hole then one somewhere else
Ruger SRH in 44mag at 40 yds

Nice shooting
I can not do that good at 5 feet

20 grs 2400, one of my favorite charges

Yep.

I've learned a few things over the last few years of some pretty intense casting and testing of cast bullets. Much of what I learned came from developing cast loads for a Schmidt-Rubin K-31 to be used for High Power competition on the 100 yd. reduced course.

I personally find sizing important, but I'll qualify that by specifying nose-first sizing which is important for concentricity. In the aforementioned rifle, I used a little 155 gr. plain-base FP bullet from an NEI mould. After applying a home made lube in a over sized die in a standard lubrisizer, I'd run the bullets through a Lee sizing die. Excellent results.



Eventually I went to ACWW alloy and the load shot WAY better than me, but I did manage, much to the chagrin of a few AR shooters, an Expert classification with said rifle and load.

Even old military surplus rifles shoot nice with properly cast and sized bullets.







Softer, within reason, is always better in my experience. I cast a bunch of .430" SWCHP's @ around 9.5 Bhn and gave them to a buddy who loaded them in his S&W 629. He runs them right at 1150 fps with zero leading. I've run a ACWW 180 gr. FP bullet out of my old 03A3 a smidge over 2000 with not enough leading to matter, certainly not during hunting season anyway. Ditto with my revolvers. The soft bullets obturate to fill cylinder mouths and barrel grooves better thus sealing off gases thereby improving accuracy and preventing leading.

35WN

Reluctance? I've been shooting lead since the early 80's 9mm, 38, 357, 44 mag and 45.

'Nuther problem with casting is you can't hit what you're aiming at most times. That confuses the neophytes a bit.

50 yards:




My experience to date indicates Lee LA works fair well up to around 1900 fps with GC bullets and 1500-1600 fps with plain base. Alloys softer are more fun than hard. If I could just get to where I could hit what I'm aiming at?

An excellent point that could be expanded to handloading in general.

A bump for the helluva it. LGS consensus seems to be that round of .22 mag is worth .60 plus tax. This keeps up and casting will become America's most popular pastime.

I haven't touched my "war chest" full of .22 rimfire ammo in quite a while. Some of those bricks are over 20 years old now. When I want to squirt lead out of a tube I grab a sackful of cast bullet loads and the rifle du jour.

Haven't done much of that either except for the odd CB short here and there. Never was much of a plinker either. Pushing 2 years since I shot a jacketed bullet except for familiarization with a Little Chitty Pistol. Have been shooting cast and swaged bullets exclusively.