Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Ask The Gunwriters Griz Defense with Bergers

What were charging bears shot with and stopped prior to 1985, the year the TSX was invented?




A friend of mine guided a guy on an antelope hunt. He was shooting a 300 WSM with 180 Barnes. They found a monster buck, snuck in ant shot it at 200 yards. Massive blood spot on the chest right behind the shoulder as it RAN off. It kept going.

Worked in on it again. It was grazing as if nothing had happened. Shot it again at 250 and it SPRINTED off like a [bleep]' race horse. They couldn't keep up with it. Went home for the night.

Came back the next day to look for it. Located it. It was GRAZING again. Couldn't get close as it knew the jig was up. Took a Hail Mary at 1100. Hunt over.

Came back the next week and recovered the head/ horns with game and fish permission as well as the landowner. Horns were like baseball bats.



I'm sure someone other than JohnBurns has smoked a grizz with Bergers in a dangerous sitch with good results.

You really love those bergers.

Yep.

Partitions have always been highly regarded by many/most around big bears. Obviously, Core-lokts and a whole lot of other "less superior" options have been used with varying degrees of success.

I guess I've always figured bear defense might mean a lot more than a freight-train charge. There could easily be two or more people in a bear defense situation, and, while I certainly don't hope to ever have to shoot a bear that is heading toward or chewing on another person, I prefer to know that a bullet has a decent chance of working reasonably well from any angle on the animal. That's a whole lot different than hunting bears, though even there, it's still not a bad policy. There are better bullets than even larger caliber and weight Interlocks, Matchkings, and Core-lokts for big bear hunting. It's not that they can't; but even a 10 round mag of 55 grainers out of a Mini-14 "can", and have. There are plenty of better options that don't help you screw the pooch, "help" that most folks aren't very eager to wager with.

I guess they were using heavy soft points....things like WW Power Points(in 375 caliber these were actually made with bronze jackets I was told)which were nicely built and even though of C&C construction did a good job both here and in Africa. The WW load was a favorite of Finn Aagard in his 375.There were also heavyy Corelokts,and Hornady's, etc.

Or they scrounged Nosler Partitions,which for awhile were not made in heavy calibers when Nosler went from the screw machine design to impact extrusion.The nuttier among us bought and traded Bitterroots,which were as scarce as hens teeth and as expensive as high grade cocaine,but "worked" very well,and would be as good as anything in its class if made today.There was not much else,as the bullet scene was not what it is now.

I remember a couple of African pro's visiting the East Coast who almost fainted when they found out a friend and I had a stash of about 700 screw machine 270 and 300 gr Partitions in 375;offered us the equivilent of Vegas hookers for a portion of the stash We used those bullets in Alaska for brown bear and some elk hunting;they worked splendidly.


This left a huge void in the market place for "premium"bullets and is what gave rise to things like the Bitterroots, the Aframe,Jack Carter's TBBC,and the X monos. There was a real need for all of them,as high velocity,bullet fragmentation and insufficient penetration had left a lot of hunters using high velocity cartridges "wanting".

I understand the need for expansion and penetration in a bullet to reliably kill soft skinned BG; but have never been much of a fan of excessive fragmentation and blowing innards to atoms as a way of killing them reliably on the spot(DRT's?).Nor do I believe in vague theories about "hydrostatic shock"...the term is far too vague and the results inconsistent.

Reason is IME, it doesn't always work. I have seen animals with innards blown to shreds into red goo from soft tissue hits stay on their feet and travel some distance before expiring. The most reliable means to DRT's involve simultaneously breaking bone essential to locomotion and damaging vital organs at the same time.I notice even John Burns is putting Bregers on bone to get the desired results at distance.

This sort of thing takes a bullet of good construction that also expands,yet has some means of retaining weight to maintain forward momentum under the stress of high velocity impact without disintegrating because a bullet that stays together has a much better chance of penetrating deeply than one that is being torn to shreds enroute. Not as important as distance increases but at high impact velocity I will put my money on something of tough construction.

I can understand how a Berger can be a very good long range bullet, because its retained velocity and fragile construction allows the expansion we need and the extra weight allows for penetration.By sayin all this i am not dumping on Bergers BTW;but I don't think those gaping exit holes we see them make sometimes are the result of flying particles of bullet material; I think they are the result of the cavitation resulting from a high velocity projectile and an expanded frontal area...those holes are not made from little pieces of bullets,which no doubt contribute to the goo but don't cause those parge exits....at least that's what I think.

As kids, we understood things intuitively about elementary physics....we threw soft snowballs at friends during snowball fights, that shattered harmlessly and avoided chunks of ice for fear of actually hurting them..... If we wanted to bust windshields on abandoned cars at the junk yard, we did not pick up a handful of gravel...we grabbed a rock;sometimes a big rock... and we threw it hard, knowing it was harder than the windshield,would not shatter,come apart, and had the momentum and structural integrity to penetrate through.

But somehw as adults, we grow "smarter" ,we forget these things when we pick up a BG rifle that slings projectiles at 2500-3200 fps and shoot them into animals...we substitute odd notions of "hydrostatic shock",and "energy transfer" that not even physicians and engineers can describe and agree on.

For most BG hunting,and especially incoming bears, I will take the "rocks" and save the thin jacketed stuff for real LR, where they start to behave more like "rocks"....

[bleep] me, come on man get real..



Two of my B&C pronghorn, both shot with barnes..If it makes you feel any better i'm certain if I was using bergers on those hunts the picture would look exactly the same, hell if i used a standard WW2 ball round out of a garand the picture would be the same..save the bullshit stories.

Nicely written, Bob. And, it was tactfully presented, as well as being practically put.

Being that I'm one who far too often sees hyper-velocity calibers being used on heavy game and thereby, far to often watching as fragile bullets go to pieces on heavy bone before ever penetrating vital tissue, it's nice to read some practical logic in reference to bullet construction.

While the advent of newly engineered bullet construction the past decade has been a boon for unique manufacturers, it hasn't necessarily been an aid for professionals who are in the field and who are mandated to follow utmost safety protocol.

There's nothing more terrifying than following wounded dangerous game into heavy cover.

I am willing to wager that rcumuglia has never stopped a charging bear with any bullet much less a Berger. I'll even wager that he has never ever shot a larger grizz/brown bear. The only bear guide with vast big bear experience that has posted in this thread is 458win (Phil Shoemaher) and as l can see Bergers are not a bullet that he would choose for protection up close and personal on big bears and neither would I.

I'm curious as to what question we're trying to hash out here. UncleJesse isn't hunting bears, so we aren't addressing his question when we talk of the best bullets for hunting bears. He hasn't posted much here, and the question remains as to why he picked the lightest hunting VLD in 30 cal in the first place. In my reasoning, their use sort of negates the reasons for using Berger bullets anyway. It is the long-and-heavies that carry their energy the best at distance, and with their lower BC, the 155's lose their momentum rather quickly. As previously stated, I have no problem with the defending myself against bears if Bergers are what I have in my gun, but they wouldn't be my 1st choice, and the lightest weight in the caliber would be my last choice. Still, there are plenty of accounts of people getting excellent results with those 155's on huge animals at close range.

Bob, good post. I like it when you 'spell out' your view.

Phil, thank you for chiming in. Your input has the weight of a freighter in this regard.

Are you calling me a big bore ?

Like everyone here I have opinions and most have been developed over the years by experience.

I do know that there are no bad bullets - but there certainly are wrong applications for each of them. Berger makes some fantastic bullets for accuracy and in certain situations they work well on game. But no projectile does all things well. You are not going to brain a bull elephant with a Berger and a Woodleigh solid is not likely to win any Olympic events or vaporize a prairie rat.
I have posted this photo before on discussion like this before but the same arguments keep popping up. It is a bear that one of my clients wounded and that I had to follow up in very thick pucker brush. I was carrying my 30-06 stuffed with 220 gr Nosler partitions at the time and knew from experience that they would penetrate every bit as well as my 375 or 458 ( which I was wishing I had when he charged ). There is no way that I would have even attempted following it up if I had been using Bergers !!! And if I had I probably would not have survived.

A wise person chooses the best tool for the job.

I'll go with what Phil says on this one as he probably has more experience on the subject than most if not all.

'Big Bore Phil' could mean all sorts of things, some of them being compliments. Looking at you with that wee rifle over that huge bear, I'm thinking we should call you 2-Bore Phil.

I've seen no proof of Burns shooting a bear in a dangerous situation.

Also, it doesn't sound like a post mortem was done on the antelope? "A huge blood spot behind the shoulder" is pretty freaking vague, and vitals were obviously not hit or extremely undamaged if the buck was grazing soon after. Sounds like a case of terrible shooting and even worse guiding since they continued to chase, and the guide let the hunter take an 1100 yard "hail mary".

Rick,

Funny you should ask that in the �Ask the Gunwriters� forum. One rather famous early proponent of the Hollow Point Boat Tail was Outdoor Life writer Jack O�Connor. In fact the bullet that really �made� the .270 Win was the Western 130gr open tip boat tail.

In his last book O�Connor wrote that Hosea Sarber, whom he called �one of the most experienced brown bear hunters that ever lived�, considered the Western bullet to be his favorite brown bear bullet.

In the chapter titled �The Big-Bore Boys� Jack repeated mentions this bullet as a very reliable game killer in modest rifles.

In 1943 Jack went on a pack trip to the Yukon and killed a big grizzly that he wrote �scared the hell out of me�. He used the .270 Win with the 130gr bullet.

So while not a Berger, per say, it was a cup and core hollow point boat tail. Same construction as the modern VLD. No bonding, no partitions, no mono construction.

Funny how what is new turns out to be not so new.

Also noted in this thread is a lot of pictures of Brown Bear skulls and bones. I went back and re-read the OP and he was asking about Grizzlies that live in deer and elk country.

Not sure if posted pictures qualify as hyperbole but Brown Bears from SE Alaska and interior AK/ lower 48 Grizzlies Bears ain�t the same sized creature. Any bullet sufficient for general elk hunting is more than sufficient for face shooting an unwounded charging GRIZZLY bear.



Phil,

As I said above the premise of the OP was Grizzly Defense while hunting deer and elk. Following a wounded Brown Bear into the brush is a whole different discussion. Here in the lower 48 a hunter is facing much smaller bears and the odds of it being wounded prior to the encounter are astronomically small.

Here in Wyoming following a wounded Grizzly into the brush, as a hunter or guide, will get you a hefty fine and possible jail time. The FWS and Wyos game and Fish consider such activity bear hunting, not bear defense.

I would ask you how many times you have seen an unwounded bear follow through with a charge after being well hit with a rifle?

I would also like to know what your personal experience has been with the Berger VLD?

John, I am more than willing discuss personal experience with both Berger bullets and with Bears. Discussion are a two way street however.
I have shot a lot of Bergers, but not at bears.
As for the difference between a determined charge from an unwounded or wounded bear I will simply refer you to my daughter, her packer and her last bear client. 10 days ago they were charged by an unwounded sow - that was no bigger than a grizzly - It was a completely unexpected charge and the bear had come from a direction so that my daughter was unable shoot without endangering the client. Fortunately the packer was quick and was able to get a shot into it from his 375, which dropped it 15 feet in front of them. It immediately bounced back up and continued for the client. he was backing up as he shot and the bullet struck the neck of the bear as he fell over backwards. It died with it's head touching his feet !!
I am sure a Berger would have worked as well in that case as the Nosler's that he was shooting. But we won't know until you tell your stories.

As for size of bears, there are recent records of grizzlies killed in Montana that weighed over 900 pounds. that is a good sized bear by any standards.

Actually, there was a Montana grizzly trapped by researchers a few years ago that bottomed out their 800-pound portable scale, and that was in the spring--which in all probability meant an over-1000 pound bear in the fall.

The griz mounted in the National Forest office just west of Lincoln was hit by a semi north of Seely Lake. The bear took the hit in the head from the trucks' bumper and died instantly so it was intact and it was weighed whole. 850 IIRC.

And there ends the debate, Uncle Jesse should use a semi for his hunting!

Meanwhile, I think I'll go over to the long range forum and tell everyone how a 300gr .375 roundnose hornady will work just fine for 900 yard animal shooting, you know, because I've done it so much. What the heck do people over there know anyhow?

JohnBurns, I am sure Mule Deer can also verify that fact that gunwriters, both old and new, are not always as honest in their stories as folks wish to believe. Even Jack who, as great a gun writer as he was, often told stories that shed him, and Eleanor, in the best light.
If you are such a real fan of his take a close look at many of his photos and you will find than on more than one example there are photos of the same animal taken from a slightly different angle with Jack in one and Eleanor in another and each of them is credited with killing the same animal with a different rifle !

Phil,

I think you are referring to the bear picts, if so here is the story.

First bear was shot broadside through the shoulder at 175yds with a 180gr VLD from a 7mm Rem Mag. Bear collapsed at impact and rolled onto it�s back with the feet up in the air.

My bear was strongly quartering away at 620yds and the 180gr VLD entered behind the last rib and broke the offside shoulder. Bear ran 40yds and stopped facing straight away on a slope.

2nd bullet went over the hind end and entered right behind the hump. Bear turned into a dishrag and rolled down the slope.

The second bear was videoed.

I am not sure where the charge thing came from, other than Steelhead gigging me. He has seen the video.

As a side note, if I get ate by a bear can my relatives use this on my tombstone?