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Originally Posted by MojoHand
One should not take the Gospels to be the gospel truth (ha!). Too many problems.

The historical truth is that the Romans killed him. The minute he claimed to be a messiah he wrote his own death warrant (matter of fact, it was written above him on the cross).
Rome would let you do a lot of stuff religiously, but make a political claim to kingship and you were going on wood.

Btw, he most likely died of shock, not suffocation.
You really should read what the Bible says before you start inventing history. Rome said he was innocent. Pilate wanted to release him. They had nothing whatever against him. They crucified him to keep the Jewish leaders from inciting riots among the people, a trick they'd pulled many times before. Pilate had water brought and literally washed his hands of the blame, then ordered Jesus crucified just to keep the peace with the Jews.


“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell

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Originally Posted by Plinker
From da web...

The illegal arrest and trial of Jesus Christ

1. There was no legal basis for Jesus' arrest because no one had presented a formal charge of any crime; He simply was taken. Moreover, those who went with Judas to have Jesus arrested included the priests and elders--His judges (Luke 22:52)--among whom were the ones who bribed Judas!

2. Jesus was subjected to a secret preliminary examination at night (John 18:12-14, 19-23). Jewish law permitted only daylight proceedings.

3. The indictment against Jesus was illegal because the judges themselves brought up the charge without any prior testimony by witnesses. The Jewish court (the Sanhedrin) by law was not allowed to originate charges.

4. The court illegally proceeded to hold its trial of Jesus before sunrise so no one would be available to testify on His behalf.

5. The trial began on a day before an annual Sabbath (John 18:28), even though Jewish law did not permit the trial of a capital offense to begin on a Friday or the day before an annual Sabbath. Jesus was arrested and tried on the 14th of Abib, the day before the first annual Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

6. Jesus' trial was concluded in one day. Jewish law says: "If a sentence of death is to be pronounced, it [a criminal case] cannot be concluded before the following day" (Mishna, "Sanhedrin" IV, 1). This was to allow sufficient opportunity for any witnesses in support of the accused to present themselves. Jesus' trial was conducted in private and completed in less than nine hours!

7. Two false witnesses charged Jesus with saying He would destroy the temple made with hands (Mark 14:58); yet He was condemned by the court on another false charge--that of blasphemy. He was condemned on His own testimony (Luke 22:67-71). But according to Jewish law, a person could not be condemned on his own testimony.

8. The merits of Jesus' defense were not considered. Despite Deuteronomy 13:14, the high priest did not "inquire, and make search, and ask diligently" to see whether Jesus' statement was blasphemous. The law in the Mishna says: "The judges shall weigh the matter in the sincerity of their conscience" ("Sanhedrin" IV, 5). Instead, the court pronounced sentence instantly and unanimously!

9. Those who would have voted against condemnation were not at Jesus' trial. Joseph of Arimathaea was a member of the court, yet he was not there (Luke 23:50-51). Jesus' opponents had made sure that only those who hated Him would be there.

10. The sentence was pronounced in a place forbidden by law. The trial took place at the high priest's house (Luke 22:54). According to the law, a death sentence could be pronounced only in the court's appointed place.

11. Most of the judges were legally disqualified to try Jesus. Some had bought their way into office, according to Josephus. Also, since they were known enemies of Jesus, Jewish law required that they disqualify themselves so He could be tried by impartial judges.

12. The court illegally switched the charges from blasphemy to treason before Pilate. Jesus' opponents wanted Him killed, but they did not want to do it themselves. So they charged Him with treason (Luke 23:2)--a Roman crime--so the Romans would be responsible for His death. No evidence was presented (John 18:29-30). Pilate, after a brief interview, saw that Jesus was not guilty (John 18:38, 19; Matt. 27:18). Fearing the crowd, however, he allowed the crucifixion of an innocent man. Pilate did not even pronounce Him guilty; he merely turned Him over to the soldiers.


All excellent reasons that the "trial" likely never happened, but was added later by whoever wrote the account to 'spice things up'.

Not to mention the idea that a Roman gov known for rampant crucifixions would take the time to personally hear a trial over one more revolutionary is rather absurd. Same with his hand washing, his dithering and deferring to a subjugated, despised people and his Miss Chloe wife.

When too many things don't add up, it behooves one to look deeper or change their previously held beliefs. However, those that hold to an inerrant, literally true account have no recourse other than take things at face value.

For a better written and sourced account (whether you agree with all of his conclusions or not), read 'Zealot' and investigate his sources, etc.


It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...

Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.

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Originally Posted by MojoHand
Originally Posted by Plinker
From da web...

The illegal arrest and trial of Jesus Christ

1. There was no legal basis for Jesus' arrest because no one had presented a formal charge of any crime; He simply was taken. Moreover, those who went with Judas to have Jesus arrested included the priests and elders--His judges (Luke 22:52)--among whom were the ones who bribed Judas!

2. Jesus was subjected to a secret preliminary examination at night (John 18:12-14, 19-23). Jewish law permitted only daylight proceedings.

3. The indictment against Jesus was illegal because the judges themselves brought up the charge without any prior testimony by witnesses. The Jewish court (the Sanhedrin) by law was not allowed to originate charges.

4. The court illegally proceeded to hold its trial of Jesus before sunrise so no one would be available to testify on His behalf.

5. The trial began on a day before an annual Sabbath (John 18:28), even though Jewish law did not permit the trial of a capital offense to begin on a Friday or the day before an annual Sabbath. Jesus was arrested and tried on the 14th of Abib, the day before the first annual Sabbath of the Feast of Unleavened Bread.

6. Jesus' trial was concluded in one day. Jewish law says: "If a sentence of death is to be pronounced, it [a criminal case] cannot be concluded before the following day" (Mishna, "Sanhedrin" IV, 1). This was to allow sufficient opportunity for any witnesses in support of the accused to present themselves. Jesus' trial was conducted in private and completed in less than nine hours!

7. Two false witnesses charged Jesus with saying He would destroy the temple made with hands (Mark 14:58); yet He was condemned by the court on another false charge--that of blasphemy. He was condemned on His own testimony (Luke 22:67-71). But according to Jewish law, a person could not be condemned on his own testimony.

8. The merits of Jesus' defense were not considered. Despite Deuteronomy 13:14, the high priest did not "inquire, and make search, and ask diligently" to see whether Jesus' statement was blasphemous. The law in the Mishna says: "The judges shall weigh the matter in the sincerity of their conscience" ("Sanhedrin" IV, 5). Instead, the court pronounced sentence instantly and unanimously!

9. Those who would have voted against condemnation were not at Jesus' trial. Joseph of Arimathaea was a member of the court, yet he was not there (Luke 23:50-51). Jesus' opponents had made sure that only those who hated Him would be there.

10. The sentence was pronounced in a place forbidden by law. The trial took place at the high priest's house (Luke 22:54). According to the law, a death sentence could be pronounced only in the court's appointed place.

11. Most of the judges were legally disqualified to try Jesus. Some had bought their way into office, according to Josephus. Also, since they were known enemies of Jesus, Jewish law required that they disqualify themselves so He could be tried by impartial judges.

12. The court illegally switched the charges from blasphemy to treason before Pilate. Jesus' opponents wanted Him killed, but they did not want to do it themselves. So they charged Him with treason (Luke 23:2)--a Roman crime--so the Romans would be responsible for His death. No evidence was presented (John 18:29-30). Pilate, after a brief interview, saw that Jesus was not guilty (John 18:38, 19; Matt. 27:18). Fearing the crowd, however, he allowed the crucifixion of an innocent man. Pilate did not even pronounce Him guilty; he merely turned Him over to the soldiers.


All excellent reasons that the "trial" likely never happened, but was added later by whoever wrote the account to 'spice things up'.

Not to mention the idea that a Roman gov known for rampant crucifixions would take the time to personally hear a trial over one more revolutionary is rather absurd. Same with his hand washing, his dithering and deferring to a subjugated, despised people and his Miss Chloe wife.

When too many things don't add up, it behooves one to look deeper or change their previously held beliefs. However, those that hold to an inerrant, literally true account have no recourse other than take things at face value.

For a better written and sourced account (whether you agree with all of his conclusions or not), read 'Zealot' and investigate his sources, etc.


Another theory is the whole trial was added to avoid pissing off the Romans. Blame the Romans for killing your God, and they just might wipe you all out....especially if some fundamentalist got all riled up and decided to attack a Roman citizen.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by MojoHand
One should not take the Gospels to be the gospel truth (ha!). Too many problems.

The historical truth is that the Romans killed him. The minute he claimed to be a messiah he wrote his own death warrant (matter of fact, it was written above him on the cross).
Rome would let you do a lot of stuff religiously, but make a political claim to kingship and you were going on wood.

Btw, he most likely died of shock, not suffocation.
You really should read what the Bible says before you start inventing history. Rome said he was innocent. Pilate wanted to release him. They had nothing whatever against him. They crucified him to keep the Jewish leaders from inciting riots among the people, a trick they'd pulled many times before. Pilate had water brought and literally washed his hands of the blame, then ordered Jesus crucified just to keep the peace with the Jews.


You really should read history first before you take religious accounts to heart. The idea that Rome, via Pilate, would kowtow to a subjugated, despised and weak people is laughable. Jews didn't dictate anything to the Romans. You can read about Rome's final solution to the Jewish problem in, say, Josephus, etc. Might want to try around 70 AD.

Don't take disparate accounts written with a religious agenda and sourced from others as historical fact. The gospels are better off viewed as containing truth rather than facts.


It ain't what you don't know that makes you an idiot...it's what you know for certain, that just ain't so...

Most people don't want to believe the truth~they want the truth to be what they believe.

Stupidity has no average...
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Originally Posted by Gus
it was just a few Jews and Romans involved in the deed. it wasn't all of them.

kinda like the modern day jihadists. it's just a few radicals involved, not all of them.


The non radicals are the ones to watch out for, they are waiting for their moment of self proclaimed glory.

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Originally Posted by OrangeOkie
I have never read the O'Reilly book nor seen the movie, nor do I intend to, but I heard him reference the topic and it seems like he is blaming the Romans for "killing Jesus." Is this correct? Is he "covering" for the Jews?


Every man and woman on earth killed Jesus... as God willed.


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Originally Posted by MojoHand
Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Originally Posted by MojoHand
One should not take the Gospels to be the gospel truth (ha!). Too many problems.

The historical truth is that the Romans killed him. The minute he claimed to be a messiah he wrote his own death warrant (matter of fact, it was written above him on the cross).
Rome would let you do a lot of stuff religiously, but make a political claim to kingship and you were going on wood.

Btw, he most likely died of shock, not suffocation.
You really should read what the Bible says before you start inventing history. Rome said he was innocent. Pilate wanted to release him. They had nothing whatever against him. They crucified him to keep the Jewish leaders from inciting riots among the people, a trick they'd pulled many times before. Pilate had water brought and literally washed his hands of the blame, then ordered Jesus crucified just to keep the peace with the Jews.


You really should read history first before you take religious accounts to heart. The idea that Rome, via Pilate, would kowtow to a subjugated, despised and weak people is laughable. Jews didn't dictate anything to the Romans. You can read about Rome's final solution to the Jewish problem in, say, Josephus, etc. Might want to try around 70 AD.

Don't take disparate accounts written with a religious agenda and sourced from others as historical fact. The gospels are better off viewed as containing truth rather than facts.
No historian who valued his head would dare to suggest that Rome kowtowed to the Jews, but that's what happened. History is written by fallible men. The Gospels were written by an infallible God. Josephus wasn't there. The Gospels were penned by men, with the guidance of the Holy Spirit, who WERE there. They were eye witnesses and far more reliable than Rome's historians.


“In a time of deceit telling the truth is a revolutionary act.”
― George Orwell

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Originally Posted by Gus


kinda like the modern day jihadists. it's just a few radicals involved, not all of them.


You on crack or something?
The reason the "good muslims" don't speak out is because they don't want to, not because they're scared.

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Originally Posted by FieldGrade
Originally Posted by Gus


kinda like the modern day jihadists. it's just a few radicals involved, not all of them.


You on crack or something?
The reason the "good muslims" don't speak out is because they don't want to, not because they're scared.


if what you suggest is true, then we all might be in a helluva mess?


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The new testament was written 300 years after Christ. What was allowed to be written was determined by the Catholic Church to Portray the religion they wanted to create at that time.

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Originally Posted by KennyT
The new testament was written 300 years after Christ. What was allowed to be written was determined by the Catholic Church to Portray the religion they wanted to create at that time.


Literally hundreds of gospels were thrown out, including all the Gnostic gospels.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by Rock Chuck
Before it's over, the real Christian church will be underground and illegal. There will be plenty of churches still in operation but they will be preaching PC garbage and will be anything BUT Christian. Some are well on their way there now.

But to answer the OP, the Romans did the actual execution at the request of the Jewish leadership.


For sure.


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Originally Posted by BOWSINGER


It is not important to me what the last words might have been or if the experts are right that no one cay say anything after nine hours on the cross. That is really beside the larger point of the story.


Sure it matters to you, or else you wouldn't keep discussing it or bringing it up as a point of consideration. So, here we go...

The ninth hour as mentioned in the Bible is not how long he was on the cross, but the actual time of the day. Now, some people try to argue the fact that one Gospel mentions Jesus dying at the 6th hour and another mentions the 9th hour.

Just as there were different calendars in common usage, so too were there different ways of tracking time. The ninth hour was the Roman time system and the 6th hour was the Hebrew time system, but both were the exact same time of day.

As to your "experts" there has to be some considerable questions going on as there are records of people taking as long as a week to die on the cross. As there were different ways of conducting a crucifixion. For example, nails weren't always used. It was more common to just tie them up there as the death process was the same. What was unusual about the death of Jesus was how fast it happened. Not how long it took.

Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
But don�t tell me that the Gospels agree and have the same words. They do not.


I said that they don't contradict each other, not that they have the same words. There is a difference and although that's often a significant difference, in this case, it's not so significant as the actual words there are in agreement. Allow me to demonstrate...

Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me? Matthew 27:46


Four verses later you read this important line...

Matthew 27:50 And Jesus cried out again with a loud voice, and yielded up His spirit.

Note two different actions happening here. They are sequential actions. First the crying out with a loud voice. This is pointing to the "It is finished" line. The second action, yielding up His Spirit, is the "Father into thy hands I commend my spirit" line.

So, although the same words are not used, the ones used here DO agree with the other Gospels.

Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
And when Jesus had cried with a loud voice, he said, Father, into thy hands I commend my spirit: and having said thus, he gave up the ghost. Luke 23:46


Luke's account doesn't mention "It is finished" but it doesn't have to in order to be in agreement with other accounts. A contradiction here would be if Luke wrote that "It is finished" came after "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit". Or something that is actually contradictory.

Originally Posted by BOWSINGER
When Jesus therefore had received the vinegar, he said, It is finished: and he bowed his head, and gave up the ghost. John 19:30


Again, sequential agreement. "It is finished first", then giving up the ghost "Father, into your hands I commend my spirit"



So again, no contradictions.


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Originally Posted by Gus
Originally Posted by FieldGrade
Originally Posted by Gus


kinda like the modern day jihadists. it's just a few radicals involved, not all of them.


You on crack or something?
The reason the "good muslims" don't speak out is because they don't want to, not because they're scared.


if what you suggest is true, then we all might be in a helluva mess?


You think?


The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time by the blood of patriots and tyrants.

If being stupid allows me to believe in Him, I'd wish to be a retard. Eisenhower and G Washington should be good company.
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Originally Posted by KennyT
The new testament was written 300 years after Christ. What was allowed to be written was determined by the Catholic Church to Portray the religion they wanted to create at that time.


It wasn't written 300 years later. It was compiled 300 years later.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but your flat wrong in this instance. Can you list the criteria used to assemble the Cannon? I can, and it wasn't faith based criteria. It was History based and logic based.



"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

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Originally Posted by HugAJackass
Originally Posted by KennyT
The new testament was written 300 years after Christ. What was allowed to be written was determined by the Catholic Church to Portray the religion they wanted to create at that time.


It wasn't written 300 years later. It was compiled 300 years later.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but your flat wrong in this instance. Can you list the criteria used to assemble the Cannon? I can, and it wasn't faith based criteria. It was History based and logic based.



Sorry HAJ. The primary criteria was what would bring the most revenue to the Church.


You didn't use logic or reason to get into this opinion, I cannot use logic or reason to get you out of it.

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by KennyT
The new testament was written 300 years after Christ. What was allowed to be written was determined by the Catholic Church to Portray the religion they wanted to create at that time.


Literally hundreds of gospels were thrown out, including all the Gnostic gospels.


Heya bud! I really enjoy conversations and debates with you as they don't descend into insults and ad hominem attacks.

I always find the phrase you used entertaining. Can you define a Gospel?

A more accurate terminology would be to say hundreds of writings were thrown out, to include Gnostic writings.

The question is why? The answer is in the criteria used to assemble the Cannon. The other writings were too full of blatant errors to be included. Such errors as which King or Governor was ruling when or where. Simple things like that.

If you're going to assemble "the Word of God" it can't have blatant errors like that. It just wouldn't hold water...


"Our Constitution was made only for a moral and religious people. It is wholly inadequate to the government of any other." - John Adams

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Originally Posted by antelope_sniper
Originally Posted by HugAJackass
Originally Posted by KennyT
The new testament was written 300 years after Christ. What was allowed to be written was determined by the Catholic Church to Portray the religion they wanted to create at that time.


It wasn't written 300 years later. It was compiled 300 years later.

I'm no fan of the Catholic Church but your flat wrong in this instance. Can you list the criteria used to assemble the Cannon? I can, and it wasn't faith based criteria. It was History based and logic based.



Sorry HAJ. The primary criteria was what would bring the most revenue to the Church.


No my friend. That was not the criteria used to assemble the Cannon. The Church found ways to usurp the Cannon and do that anyways. It was disgraceful, and still is...

Here is the actual criteria...

http://www.bible.ca/b-canon-criteria-of-apostolic-fathers.htm

If you like, I can provide the actual records from the various Councils that assembled the Cannon...


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For fun, hit up a Christian with the use of the word "darkness" in the Bible. That usually stumps them pretty good.

Especially if you point out the description of the "cloud" at Mount Sinai verses the Scripture that states that no darkness can be in God's presence.

There is a simple explanation, but most can't figure it out.

Same with Proverbs and how to speak to a fool, or even when to speak to one.

Again, simple answer, usually lost on most believers.

I don't claim to be a Christian anymore. That term was one given by non-believers about a few men that they observed acting and behaving just like Jesus of Nazareth. It happened in Antioch.

I don't often (rarely even) act like Jesus, so to call myself a Christian would greatly sully the term. I tend to bring more shame to the name of Jesus than I bring credit to it. For that reason, I don't call my self a Christian.

Also, I think it should be a term still given by non-believers to believers. For example, most everybody here would look at Dwayne (BC30CAL) and say, "That is a man that acts like the Jesus I understand". Reading my posts on the other hand wouldn't lead anyone to come to that conclusion.


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