Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Long Range Hunting 7mm Wby and LRAB results...........

So if I claim 3000 to 3050 with 175's in the MSM I'm as stuffed as a Christmas turkey, but 3130 with the same weight of bullet in the Wby is as righteous as Mother Theresa? Please.

John, thanks for the info.

My current Mashburn used to wear a 7mm rem mag barrel. When the current barrel goes it will likely be a remington 7 again. Once a guy gets tipping over game he sees that holes in the right places make many cartridges indistinguishable in the field. The old 7mm Remington Magnum makes things simple. Most days I like simple. Especially in a hunting rifle. I guess that's why my other serious hunting rifle is a 30-06.

Well looks like I lose according to all the ballistic "theory" and interpolation on the Internet....but to boot strap a court case I'd have to hire qualified ballistics lab technician at a minimum( with appropriate degrees and experience),attach pressure equipment to several barrels and actually shoot one against the other....to be conclusive the sampling would have to be pretty large,given variations in bore/chamber dimensions,and other stuff,which we all know varies quite a bit.



In the end I don't have a 7 mm Weatherby;and a lot of naysayers on here don't have a Mashburns.Matter of fact,none of them do and those that have built them seem happy,even though it appears their pet is alleged to be running in excess of 70,000 psi to get their velocities.I don't know how much exposure to these loads it takes for primer pockets to open up but I guess time will tell.Seems we are all doing a lot of pressure "guessing" out there.

Like most on here I have to assume that the majority of us choose cartridges to attain a velocity level based on what we are seeing in loading manuals,or assume to be generally "true" when it comes to wildcats because the majority of us do not have a ballistic lab at our disposal.We also talk to others and go on our own "experience".

Mine with Weatherby cartridges in general has been good...I have owned several 300 Weatherby's and one 270 Weatherby magnums. Both delivered very high velocities with factory ammo;and I could not safely achieve the same velocities with my handoads. I also did not relish $2 bucks a piece for brass,did not like the Remington alternative and factory ammo running $50-$90 bucks a box did not appeal either.

Also in the back of my mind was general knowledge of situations such as Dave 7mm posted of....standard throats in Weatherby chambered rifles, without free bore,causing problems with factory ammo.

Plus , I looked at data other than Weatherby's and Hornady's and saw things like the Speer data that shows 68-H4831- with their 175 gr bullet giving 2848 fps...and other bullets showing a high of 2982 with the same bullets.Ditto the SAAMI data..If you look at enough data you will not see many showing materially over 3000 fps with a 175 gr bullet.

Plus, there is that "freebore"...which I most certainly did not want,since I have done more than my share of playing with 7mm barrels and throats of varying dimensions throating,,rifling, twist and other stuff, I came to the conclusions that getting a little more case capacity was a better way to go than trying to achieve this with barrel tricks....experience taught me this. And based on a lot of loading and shooting with a 7 Rem Mag,an STW,7mm WSM,and Dakota, I did not regard the 7mm Weatherby as suited to the purpose I was after....still don't.

I don't recall ever saying that a 7mm Mashburn had a LOT more capacity than a 7mm Rem Mag or Weatherby magnum,and eve the Mashburn people have acknowledged that.

But to do what I wanted I thought that I did not NEED a lot more.....I needed a skosh more,ad a longer neck....So no Rosco I am not arguing over 3 grains of net capacity.And even guys like Bob Hagel with their old school methods said the same things about the Mashburn vs the Weatherby...those reading his stuff about the cartridge would know that.

My goals were simple...a 175 gr bullet at 3050 or so,and a 160 gr at 3150....comfortably and without the ragged edge feeling that I often had running a 7 Rem Mag pretty hard. I ended up with the Mashburn. I could have anything I wanted.I was not under any illusions about it being the fastest 7mm magnum around and have said that many times but apparently this has failed to get through to some pretty thick skulls.

I can't recall them all but I did look at a lot of data like that in the Speer manual that says they developed their 7mm Weatherby data at 65,000 psi and showed a high of 2982 fps with a 175 gr bullet;and 68-H4831-175 at 2854 fps....about what the SAMMI data shows at 65,000 psi.Sierra ,Hodgdon and Barnes data are equally unimpressive. Nosler shows 4-5 loads at a bit over 3000 fps for the 7mm Weatherby,and Hornady shows their "lines" and generic velocity levels at 3100 fps,but I did not trust it completely when balanced against the other data,since I am not one to cherry pick data, and try to look at as many sources as possible.

In looking around I also noticed, that moving a 175 gr 7mm bullet reliably over 3000 fps is tough to do even in cartridges like an STW and a 7mmRUM. I don't think anyone will argue that both have substantially more capacity than a 7mm Weatherby.

So, if I were making the choice again,the 7mm Weatherby would still not be in the running;certainly not for the purpose of starting a 175 gr 7mm bullet at over 3100 fps,not withstanding all the arguments to the contrary posted here.

If I attached a strain gauge to a Mashburn and discovered that my load of 73 gr H1000 for 3075;or 75 gr with a 160 for 3180 was actually getting a pressure reading of over 70,000 psi as Brad suggests, I'd drop the cartridge like a hot potato,and admit I got fooled...... But in re barreling I still would not pick the 7mm Weatherby for the task,recognizing that I did not choose quite enough case volume for the task.I try hard not to get emotional about cartridges.

SU35 it's interesting that you did the bearing surface test with the ABLR after you decided to substitute a 175 gr Nosler bullet for 160 gr data per the Nosler Manual,and then used the Hornady data to substantiate it.I am guessing tha,either you did not see the Nosler data,or you simply chose to ignore it.

It also occurred to me that ..."maybe he is getting away with it because these high BC bullets have less bearing surfaces than many conventional bullets".......plus the fact that I measured a couple of Nosler bullet last week for diameter and they were all a thou undersized,compared to the Kodiak bonded bullets I also measured. (Charges were dropped a grain to test the Kodiaks in view of that).In any event I learned awhile back not to work up tj Hornady data max loads and then substitute other maker' bullets....whether this applies across the board with all Hornady bullets and loads I have no idea.But I do try to be careful.

I am no products liability lawyer; but if your rifle had blown up in your face from the effects of all this experimenting, I am afraid you would be pretty much SOL.

At first blush,your lawyer would likely join Remington(rifle and cases(?), Weatherby,Nosler,Hornady,Hodgdon,etc as party defendants to the action.

I am certain that the insurance company lawyers would all look at the fact that you ignored the data in the Nosler Manual, arguing that 70.5 grains of H4831 is a maximum load for the 160 gr bullet and that loading a 175 gr in lieu thereof is tantamount to contributory negligence resulting in your injury,ie, that you contributed materially to your own damages....plus the fact that I am unaware of their data showing any H4831 loads for a 175 gr ABLR.

Your chronograph readings of 3160+ fps with a 175 gr ABLR would be more evidence of reckless conduct,since those velocities are not shown anywhere that I am aware of for the 7mm Weatherby Magnum...certainly not in Nosler's manual..

I expect they would be dismissed as party defendants on a Motion For Summary Judgement unless another hook could be found to keep them in for a trial on the merits.Maybe they would pay a small settlement to avoid the hassle of having to go to trial.

In any event,if I were one of the insurance company lawyers, I would have field day with you. Besides that,after bearing witness to your conduct,I doubt any lawyer would take your case on a contingent basis.

This would not be like a car accident you know


I am afraid that none of the stuff posted by others on here would save your bacon.You may take cold comfort in it all in this kangaroo jurisdiction,but I can assure you none of the information and advise posted here would help you much, if any at all in a Courtroom,given your conduct.

I am not certain of the educational backgrounds of everybody who has chosen to participate in this little slug fest,but doubt they would be qualified as an expert witness due to lack of technical education in the specific field.If I am mistaken the comment is withdrawn.

An old now deceased pal of mine testified in many gun related cases but he had engineering degrees,and was a very experienced guy in a number of shooting endeavors.

So I would not bet any serious money on me getting my "lawyer butt kicked"...if I were you I would refrain from handing out any advise on two things....the law, and based on what I have seen here, handloading.



And on sending the rifle to me,I think I will pass....your derogatory remarks about me made it "personal",and I don't want responsibility for your gear....if I want to mess with a 7mm Weatherby I can buy one,thanks. Besides a sample of "one" would not prove very much if anything at all.

If you're going to argue your case, you have to have the facts right. Nowhere did I say or suggest the above, unless there's another Brad on this thread I'm not aware of...

pathfinder76,

It's hard to beat the tried and true, isn't it?

I've had several 7mm RM's, but ended up with my latest at a steal a few months ago. It's a custom rifle based on a 1909 Argentine action with a very nice piece of classis-styled fiddleback walnut. It's nicely done but lacks checkering--which I can do myself. There's no markings about who did either the metal or wood work, so I suspect it just never got finished, for one reason or another. But I'm pretty good st checkering, and can finish it this winter.

i wonder why my 27 in brux barreled 7-300 win mag wont break 3000 with a 178 lrab with any powder before showing pressure signs, bright ejector mark,,,

If your 300 Win cases had double radius shoulders, you'd be there easy....

Tanner

Interesting.

I've seen "bright ejector marks" on so many factory ammo case heads I pretty much ignore that as a real indicator.

Obviously you're looking at other indicators too.

But, as has been stated so often, "traditional indicators" often tell more about a chamber or brass quality than pressure.

But you sound like a careful handloader, not pressing the envelope and your tribe should be applauded!

If you are getting good case life and no indications of high pressure, except an arbitrary number on a strain gauge, why would you drop your wildcat?

The .257 Weatherby Magnum appeared early in the Weatherby line and became a favorite of Roy Weatherby. Roy, born in 1910 to a Kansas sharecropper, got into the gun business almost by accident. Keen to pull himself from his family's poverty, he clerked in a music store and sold washing machines. He married Camilla Jackson in 1936. The couple landed in San Diego, California, where Roy made a good living ($200 a month) selling insurance.

Roy indulged an interest in rifles by designing high-velocity rounds on the .300 Holland case. Weatherby's signature "double radius" shoulder (and early success) owes much to California wildcatter R.W. Miller. In 1940 Miller was experimenting with the .300 Hoffman, dropped by Western Cartridge Co. seven years earlier. Miller replaced the angular junctures at neck and shoulder with rounded corners for smooth gas flow. American Rifleman sent authority E. Baden Powell for a look. Powell advised Miller to straighten the case body. Result: the Powell Miller Venturi Freebore. In 1944 the men went into business as Vard, Inc., then sold out in 1945 to Hollywood Tool & Die.

About then, Roy carried a .270 PMVF on a deer hunt and liked it. However, Miller wouldn't help Roy design that radius into his cases. Machinist George Fuller agreed to provide the tooling. A full-length version of Roy's modified .300 H&H became the .300 Weatherby, but his first magnums were shorter and necked to .257, .277 and .284. In 1985, Roy recalled that the .257 arrived "sometime in 1944."

In 1946 he pledged "everything [he] owned" to get a $5,000 business loan. His future brightened the day Gary Cooper walked into his retail shop. The two men (both car buffs) hit it off, and Cooper became a regular visitor, introducing Roy to other Hollywood stars. A cash infusion from Texas oilman Herb Klein lifted Weatherby's fortunes, as the .257 and its fast-stepping siblings impressed customers with flat flight and a deadly punch.

"Roy made a good living ($200 a month) selling insurance."

Almost as good as Leupold usuing real diamonds.....


dave

How sad.....I will never reach the status of camp councilor on the fire, but I would suggest this thread has reached it's useful purpose. Aren't there leaves to rake, or snow to shovel, or a good football game on?

I say "to each his own".

This has become just a d..k flexing contest over what....60 fps? If you enjoy your Weatherby or your Mashburn so be it. Knock yourself out!

After reading this thread, I find it interesting why anyone would ask why I like the 280AI.

"To each his own"

This raises a whole different point. It seems that at 70k traditional pressure signs appear, which is about 8% higher pressure than 65k some factory rounds are loaded to.If you are not seeing any signs and brass life is acceptable why not just roll with it?
I might add that I belive the 338 Lapua is loaded to around 70k and its chambered in the Remington 700, weatherby mark 5, cz550 and I am sure others.

The SAAMI maximum average pressure for the .338 Lapua is 65,000 psi, exactly the same as the .270 Winchester, 7mm Weatherby Magnum, 7mm STW, .300 WSM and a host of others. It's the highest average pressure they allow.

You can find all the SAAMI specs online at www.saami.org.

7mm Wby. Mag.

Introduced nearly 20 years before the popular 7mm Remington Mag., the Weatherby� version gives non-handloaders handloaded 7mm magnum performance. Delivers 400 fps more velocity than the 7mm Mauser. Ballistically similar to the .270 Weatherby� Magnum with a larger selection of bullet weights, this cartridge is well-suited for any North American game as well as thin-skinned African game.

7mm Weatherby Magnum is available in Mark V� models: Ultra Lightweight, Accumark, Accumark RC, Deluxe, Lazermark, Sporter, Fibermark Composite and Euromark.

20 cartridges per box.

This product is not eligible for overnight or 2-day shipping.
$67.00



Caliber Weight Grains Bullet Type Suggested Usage B/C Price
7mm Wby. 120 Barnes TTSX M .373 $90.00 Out of stock
7mm Wby. 139 SP M .392 $67.00 Out of stock
7mm Wby. 140 Barnes TSX M .477 $90.00 Out of stock
7mm Wby. 150 BST M .493 $78.00 Out of stock
7mm Wby. 154 SP M .433 $67.00 Out of stock
7mm Wby. 160 Accubond M .531 $90.00 Out of stock
7mm Wby. 160 Partition M .475 $90.00 Out of stock
7mm Wby. 175 SP MB .462 $67.00 Out of stock

USAGE: V - Varmint; M - Medium Game (Deer, Sheep, Pronghorn, Black Bear); B - Big Game (Elk, Moose, Grizzly); A - African Big Game (Elephant, Cape Buffalo, Rhino, Lion)
BULLET TYPE: SP - Spire Point; Rn-EX - Round Nose-Expanding; FMJ - Full Metal Jacket; Barnes TSX - Barnes� TSX�; Barnes TTSX - Barnes� TTSX�; Partition - Nosler� Partition� Flat Base; BST - Nosler� Ballistic Tip�; Accubond - Nosler� Accubond�; Spitzer - Norma� Spitzer


Even Weathbery ammo is out of stock...


dave

Bob, yeah, keep on guessing, you have a penchant for it. I saw that Hornaday had included their round nose 175 for their data,I knew that bullet like most RN's are long on surface. That was enough for me to know to proceed. You keep trying pick nits that don't exist.

I started off with Rem cases and Rem primers and saw that the case capacity of Federal was pretty much the same. So to belabor the point for you. I knew I could proceed to Fed cases.

I could care less what Speer data says. I don't shoot their bullets. Why are they even in this conversation?



Like a typical lawyer Bob, you don't have the data and evidence so you go after the witness. Something you have done continually in this thread towards me. I didn't appreciate your derogatory remarks, So, if anything you need to look at your own conduct and behavior. Your anger was glaring and your words were not nice.




Bob you are not me, I have not given any law advise. Also, you should take your own advise for somebody who shoots a wildcat and guesses a lot.

Be responsible for your own actions Bob. So far, your blame shifting is not working.


I shot Hornaday data and substituted one bullet that I knew was going to work by seeing its bearing surface.

I've been loading for over 40 years Bob. Yes, I am still learning and learned a lot from JB the past few days.

I learned that I would not be shooting your load in a Mashburn.

Where this train ran off the tracks.

Yes, but I believe this was changed at some point. I think initially CIP or SAAMI had it rated at 68k and change.

4700 BAR converts to 68167.736733202 psi

Where it ran off the tracks for me.






He didn't have the evidence, he was assuming and guessing and accusing, so in typical lawyer fashion did his best to discredit the witness.

I used the Hornaday load data sir. It worked as shown. I went by the book.

So far the Bee has been sweet and easy to use.