Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Handguns I wish I could make up my mind...

... on what my main carry pistol should be.

I'm sorry this is such a long post, but I can't ask for fellow Campfire members' opinions without giving you the whole thought process first.

If you don't care to read the whole post, I can understand... but if you don't care to read it all, kindly don't waste your time writing a reply.

I've carried daily for almost 2 decades, both off- and on-duty, and as a private citizen. I've carried full-size, compact, and subcompact guns, both autos and revolvers, and unlike most people I practice with my carry guns pretty regularly. And I've shot them in IDPA/IPSC/3-gun competition as well... nothing provides feedback on the suitability of a carry pistol like competition, short of actual combat experience, of course.

In the beginning I carried various full size 9mm autos, Glock, Beretta, Taurus, SIG. After a few years of that I caught the 1911 bug and took some combat pistol classes from trainers who were die-hard 1911 guys, so I put the 9mm's away and carried 1911's on a daily basis. When I joined my city's PD in Y2K, I switched to .40 for CCW as well as duty, as that's what they used (G22, I bought a G23 since I wasn't in uniform). I carried that G23 most of the time for the next ten years, although I would strap on a 1911 much of the time as well. Oh, and in between I carried various revolvers in special circumstances... hunting & fishing mostly... S&W 65 or 686 in 357 Mag, or a M29-2 in 44 Mag, and most often over the past 10 years a M625 Mountain Gun in .45 Colt.

Then I joined my county Sheriff's Office and the SWAT team in 2005. They carried SIG P220's, so I bought one of those. The advantages of being able to shoot Department ammo is a significant cost savings, especially when you're talking .45ACP!) I shot a few IDPA/IPSC matches with the big SIG, and found I could shoot it almost as fast/accurately as my match-tuned 1911's, so I carried it off-duty quite a bit. But it's a blocky pistol, and harder to conceal than a 1911, so when I moved to TX I sold it.

Since reverting to a non-sworn civilian, I've wandered back and forth between my various carry guns, and I can't seem to make up my dang mind.

It really comes down to 3 calibers for me: 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. My training and research in terminal ballistics, and that of my colleagues scattered all over the country, tells me that all 3 calibers are adequate for serious social purposes, and that there's really very little difference among them in their ballistic efficiency at putting bad guys down for a permanent dirt nap. But I also have a feeling in my gut (that more than a few of my colleagues share) that the .45 ACP has a hard-to-define but very real "edge" over any other service auto round... based on GSW's I've seen, autopsies, ballistic gelatin blocks shot, and so forth.

The 9mm is a very good gunfighting round, especially in the middle-to-heavyweight bullet class. And a double-stack 9mm pistol gives you a LOT of bullets between reloads, tactical or slide-lock. I have come to regard this as a very good thing.

While I prefer the ballistic performance of the .45 ACP for admittedly non-scientific reasons, I am unhappy with the fact that any gun that holds more than 12 rounds is invariably big and bulky, heavy to carry, and difficult to conceal. I'll explain the 12-round threshold in a minute.

I'm ambivalent on the .40 S&W as well... The .40 is real popular in Wisco and the upper Midwest, where cops have to shoot people through multiple layers of clothing, so the extra power of the 180 gr rounds is real popular. And the cops up there have shot a LOT of bad guys with it. But the recoil impulse of the .40 is worse than both the 9mm and the .45, which degrades most shooters' performance to some degree. I didn't think it bothered me, but then I shot a couple of IDPA matches with 2 guns, switching from my G19 to my G23 for each stage, and I found I shot MUCH better scores and significantly faster with the G19. Speed AND accuracy is a hard combination to beat.

One thing tactical training teaches you is that when the flag goes up you WILL NOT be able to keep track of your round count... which means the need to reload your pistol may arise at a very inopportune time... which means if you can carry enough rounds in the gun to finish the fight without needing to reload, you're more likely to survive it. And if you find yourself up against multiple adversaries, the situation is vastly more complicated.

If you don't reguarly do speed reloads training, you're more than likely looking at a reload time of at least 3 seconds. That is a LONG time in a gunfight!! When I'm in competition trim I can reload in about 1.0-1.2 seconds, sometimes under a second... but in normal street/CCW mode, even with regular practice, it's more like 1.7-1.9 seconds and sometimes worse. An opponent with a handgun can squeeze off 10 rounds in 2 seconds... and if he has a full auto weapon, he can put 30+ rounds downrange in the time I'm reloading. I don't like those numbers.

I was trained many years ago to approach tactical situations as a matter of number of engagements rather than number of rounds fired. Example: if you have 2 opponents and you engage them both, that's 2 engagements; and each engagement will consist of 2 to 4 rounds (double-tap, El Presidente, etc, depending on your training). But if you engage an opponent and fail to put him down in the first engagement, he moves to a new position, to cover, etc, and you must engage again, that's 2 engagements, too.

If you're shooting a single-stack 45 (7+1 or 8+1), that means you have enough ammo in your gun for 2 engagements, then you MUST reload. But if you're carrying a double stack 9mm, say a G19 (14+1) you're set up for 3 engagements and you might push to 4 without needing to reload. You need a minimum of 12 rounds in the gun to be able to take on a 3-engagement fight, and 15+ rounds to take on 4 engagements.

"Well, I'll never be in a situation where I'll need to engage more than one bad guy!" some folks say. I used to believe that too, but in the past 3-4 years I've seen enough news stories about flash mobs (and saw the flash mob at the Milwaukee State Fair in person in 2011--and now this [bleep] Knockout Game!!--that I think it's smarter to assume I will have to engage multiple opponents than to assume I won't.

And there is a second reason for carrying more rounds: suppressing fire. Again, folks may think this is not something a private citizen will ever need to use, but I know of 2 active-killer rampages that were thwarted/successfully terminated by a non-uniformed cop/security person using suppressing fire to make the Bad Guy keep his head down long enough to allow the Good Guy to close and terminate the BG's useless life. And there are at least two other incidents I'm looking into that also qualify, both involving armed private citizens. In the case of the Utah mall shooting, the off-duty cop was armed with a 1911 and had one spare magazine. He used suppressinge fire effectively, but went on record saying that he felt very acutely the fact that his ammo was so very limited. He doesn't carry a 1911 off-duty any more, I'm told by one who knows.

Suppressing fire doesn't have to be used on the offensive... you can use it to cover your (and/or your loved ones') retreat from the killing field. It's still a valid and justifiable response to the Bad Guy's threat of deadly force against you and yours.

After the Colorado theater shooting I made the decision to carry my G23 (with night sights) every time I went to town, taking all the above thoughts into account. (At home I'm still as likely to strap on a 1911 as anything else, but at home I have long guns within close reach.) This past summer I bought another G19 (I've bought and sold half a dozen G19's over the years, for various reasons... but I think this one is here to stay!) and have been carrying that more than the G23... it has more rounds in it, I can shoot it faster and more accurately, and I can carry 17-round G17 magazines for my reload, should I face the unpleasant necessity of reloading. And if I feel the need for variety, I can strap on a Beretta 92 or G17 or G34, but I mostly feel perfectly comfortable with the G19.

But I still have a nagging feeling that I should be carrying a .45. I don't like the compact XD's, but the S&W M&P double-stack .45 is calling to me seductively.

I'm starting to think pretty strongly about selling my Glock 23. I haven't carried it in months.

And then there's the fact that when I got dressed for work this morning, I put my Kimber TLE into a Milt Sparks IWB holster without thinking and that's what's on my hip now...

... I wish I could make up my mind. Thoughtful comments are welcome!

First off...

WELCOME BACK! Glad you escaped from the Hospital OK!

As to which gun to carry every day, I have been changing what handgun I carry every couple of years for 32 years now, so I am absolutely NO help whatsoever..... <G>

Yeah, thanks for the welcome, Mark... just keep in mind I have a loooooong memory, and revenge is a dish best served cold...

Glad to hear your handgun choice is as [bleep]-up as mine...

I'm not a .40 fan, so I'd throw that one out of the equation and just worry about 9mm or .45. Every study I read says good JHP ammo in 9mm is as effective as .45 JHP. I've taken the plunge, despite the fact that my brain keeps telling me a .45 has to be better, and am down to a G19 as a primary carry/home defense gun and a j-frame as a "it's too damn hot to carry a real gun" deep concealment piece.

If it were me, I'd sell the G23 for a second G19. Carry one and keep one at home as a spare. Keep all the 1911's around as fun guns for the range. Besides if you ever did have to use it, which would you rather have sitting in a police evidence locker for years - a G19 or a nice 1911?

Go with that thought.



Problem solved.


I have lots of handguns worthy of everyday carry. I am 100% confident in my 1911 45 ACP Sigs. Sometimes I carry the 5", other times the 4.25". Never anything less.

I think you've already figured out that a mid-size 9mm with a full size back up mag is the way to go. Buuuut...being a gun guy the thought of being tied down to just one pistol causes your soul to tremble, and you'll never cure that. I'd recommend a mid-size Glock 9mm AND continue to carry something else as it suits your fancy, just like you're doing now. You're doing it right, you just have to accept the fact that you'll forever be looking for something else. Accept it, let it in, be at one with your inner pistol-looney.

I'd add that your nagging feelings of inadequacy and desires for something "bigger" in a carry pistol are interesting.....we'll explore that next week, but we're out of time for today.

Add me to the category of regularly changing my mind on carry options. I know that's not necessarily helpful to your specific question other than to admit that I share your pain.

I've always liked the 1911 platform but after some amount of time spent in light competition and classes I do see the value in more rounds (keep in mind that my understanding is based on competition and classes and not actual shoots which I am thankful not to have been involved in). I did learn by watching the "glock guys" run and run while I got LOTS of reload practice with my 1911. I still don't fear carrying one of them but do like the flexibility of more rounds. Having said that I also occasionally carry my LCR and don't feel particularly bad about it.

FOR ME - the G19 has been a good compromise. Big enough to handle well, small enough to conceal, night sights, and good round count that should be effective with good carry ammo chosen.

I also factored in the fact that my wife prefers to keep a G17 handy and I felt it was easier for me to learn her weapon of choice than to ask her to learn mine. I put many more rounds downrange than she does so I let her pick what works for her and then I spent a good bit of time learning that same platform so we could share if needed.

Good post and encouraging to know that other struggle with this as much as I do

Doc,
Check your PM sir.

This post could have been written by me. I got a 23 in 1994 when handgun bullets weren't as dependable as they are today. I think the Gold Dot was just becoming popular. I bought a 19 in 2006 and sold my 23 a few years ago for another 19. I also carry a M&P340 (it was preceded by a 642). The only reason I changed was so that it could also be my hiking "bear get off me" gun.

Great minds thing alike, amigo, and apparently so do ours!!

I just talked to the 'smith who did the action jobs on my G19 and my G23, and he offered to get me an identical Gen 3 G19 and set it up exactly as the first one, trading straight across for the G23.

If I truly become one with my inner pistol looney I'm gonna have to buy a MUCH bigger gunsafe...

Yeah, we can have some discussion before/after the match. There's some stuff I can't say on an open forum.

Well, actually, not. The single-stack 1911 doesn't meet my 12-round minimum capacity criterion.

... unless... I carry TWO 1911's and shoot 'em with both hands, gunfighter style. Then I've got 16 rounds available. Hmmmm. Reloader28, I like the way you think...

I tried carrying my 1911 for a while but it is too heavy for my skinny butt to keep up (in an IWB). I also had to carry a spare mag for the off chance of the gunfight you mention.

I used to carry a Sig 230 and felt very comfortable with that gun for a long time. We had the church shooting in the Springs a few years back and that time I decided to change to a more offensive weapon if you will. That was a XD-sc in 40. I carried that for many years which holds 10. Full size mags up it to 12. A very comfortable gun to carry.

I have since switched to a G19 G4 which carries 15, certainly fulfills the engagement criteria you mention and -something that you did not mention- my wife can shoot it well (if she had to liberate it from my dead body). I did not really use that as a decision criteria but it is valid.

Like the old phrase, "better to have a gun" or however it goes.

Good, thoughtful, well written post Doc, as usual. You touched on several tangents in this discussion of which platform to carry, but missed one factor that I feel is important to the discussion.

While I too have personal preferrences for a certain weapon, okay I admit I lust after a precise, accurate 1911, the deciding factor for me is the "W's". What am I going to be doing , where, when, with whom and why?

Case in point, if I'm just running errands around my hometown, then my percieved threat level is lower and I can and do carry say just a single stack 1911 with spare mags.

If I'm going to fishing on say the Saginaw River in downtown Saginaw, or the Detroit River then by all means I up my game and usually carry something with more ponies in the stable. In fact, I routinely two gun carry in those AO's.......a second loaded weapon is quite an equalizer.

So, all good points Doc, like others have posted, carry your 1911 when you feel like it, or if your situation changes, then add the G19!

Mackay Sagebrush will probably be along shortly with his observations on the G19 which he likes very much himself......

Sage advice coming there, but I went with the M&P 9c with full size back up mag. Fit my hand better.

I feel just as well "battery'd" when I carried a sig 9mm, back in the day...

Keith, I didn't mention it but I almost always carry a BUG in addition to my primary, and sometimes two BUG's.

The problem with a BUG is that transitioning from your primary to your BUG is typically much more time-consuming than reloading your primary... you have to stow your primary, then draw and present your backup. Since most BUGs are carried in a deep concealment position, they're not as fast to draw as a primary.

I have timed myself and can make transitions to my BUG in 5-7 seconds, using realistic concealment principles. Compared to a 1.5 second speed reload of my primary, that's not even close. But if your primary goes t!ts-up, it's the only option, of course.

FWIW--and I've told this story on the'Fire before--at a LE convention a few years back I was talking with 5 or 6 other old guys like me, and somebody noticed that all of us were packing 1911's in strongside IWB holsters. Then I said, "OK, this is a bust, show your backups." Every single one of us reached into the strongside front pocket and pulled out a 38 snub.

Such a consensus is worth noting... there was over 80 years of street experience represented in that group.

Different flavors of apples there, is all I'd say to that...

Yep, I figured you did Doc, but your scenario also called for multiple engagements with a crowd or flash mob. In a situation like that, a second pistola can give added "coverage"!

Perfect! Carry issues resolved - until the next fit of loony-ism hits.

Doc,

I share your pain, so sent you a PM.