Home Forums Hunting & Shooting Muzzleloaders Thinking about giving BP another go

Some history:

About 20 years ago, I decided to try BP shooting. I bought a Hawken kit through Bass Pro Shops, called the Heritage Hawken. I think it was Spanish (?) made. Put it together on a weekend. It was a total hoot, and shot reasonably well. I could consistently hit a paper plate at 100yds. Unfortunately, some SOB broke into my apartment and stole it. Replaced it with a Traditions hawken(not a kit gun). That was a miserable shooter, where I had trouble hitting most anything outside 50yds. Sold that, and stopped shooting BP in disgust. That was probably about '99. In the interim, the whole inline thing has taken off.

Anyhow, I'm thinking about trying a Hawken again, as I'm not interested in inlines. I prefer the primitive aspect of it. Looking about, I'm finding that there aren't that many options for finding a Hawken in today's market place. I'm thinking maybe of trying to find a T/C or CVA, or are there other options out there without going full custom or holding my nose and picking up another Traditions?

Thoughts? What powder options are best these days? Back then it was Pyrodex, or nothing. Are most powders optimized to inlines these days (pellets)?

Thanks,

Kaiser Norton

I admire you for wanting to get back into muzzleloading with a traditional style firearm.....I, too, have no use for inlines (personally, I find them to be an abomination!).
Here is a tip: Check out the used gun racks at gun stores, pawn shops, on line, etc. A lot of guys traded in their traditional smoke poles for inlines, and the prices tend to be more than reasonable in most instances. Depending on where you live, they can even be delivered to your door!
As far as shooting them goes, I think that the reason they are hit or miss is due to the rate of twist of the rifling. Most reproductions have a 1:48 inch twist...a compromise so that they can shoot both round ball and conical. Some shoot one or the other well; others shoot both well....and some don't shoot anything well (which may have been the case with your traditions). My .54 CVA St. Louis hawken, for example, shoots patched round ball and T/C maxiball and maxihunter conicals well, but any other type of conical was a washout!
As for propellant, there is only one in my book, and that is real black powder. I tried pyrodex at first, because of all the BS I had heard and read about it being easier to get, more stable, yaddah, yaddah, yaddah.....it's just as corrosive as BP, and will I've had difficulty setting it off in cold temps (our muzzleloading deer season is in Dec); not so with BP.
I enjoy hunting with traditional BP firearms....I have taken Bison and whitetails with my .54 Hawken (a graduation gift from my wife, so I will never sell or trade it).


I also have a 62 cal flintlock smoothbore trade musket and a 10 gauge SxS caplock that I am taking afield, but so far haven't taken game with either.....but I'll keep tryin'

Good luck with your quest....you might want to try Kittery tradin' post in Maine (www.KTP.com), as they have a really big selection of used firearms.

It is almost impossible to find BP on the shelves here. The changes in storage mandated by .gov made BP to expensive to store. I have a bit of FFF left for my .32 squirrel rifles, but my inlines and .50 cal traditionals all run on substitutes. For inlines that can reliably ignite it, I prefer Blackhorn 209. For everything else I use Pyrodex. 777 left me unimpressed because of its moisture absorption and nasty crud ring. BTW, I hate pellets. They may be handy, but the accuracy loads seem to be just above or just below the weight of the pellet loads.

Lyman GPR if you're going new.
If you're looking used, plenty of T/C's floating around. Bring a bore light and run a few patches thru the used ones, as many bores may resemble sewer pipes.

Oh, I'll probably get hammered here, but I have had very good luck with Investarm rifles - Cabela's. They are for the most part, 1:48, usually .50 or .54. You usually can find the 29" barrel, and every now and then, a bunch of the 21" carbines come up. I have a bunch of these, and find the 29" to be a lot better. The carbines are VERY finicky about what shoots well. Once you find what that is, you are good to go, though. I shoot 777 exclusively, because that is what is easy to get here. It lights a LOT better than Pyrodex. I also use musket caps. They are a lot easier to handle. My go to load is a Hornady XTP 240 - 250gr, over 100 gr. 777. They all shoot that pretty good. Powerbelt 295 over 90gr. 777, and Hornady Great Plains 385gr over 80 - 90gr 777 are good choices for full bore projectiles (.50). They do NOT all shoot the same. I have one .50 that is Really forgiving. It shoots well , and to the same point of impact at 75 yards with 75gr. 777 and 240gr. XTP's - 300gr XTP over 90gr 777, and 385gr. Great Plains over 100gr 777. The Cabela's are worth a look.

i would agree with this statement . Lyman or a used TC . if you watch around you can even come up with a CVA mountain rifle,. either the original US made production run or one of the deer creek re makes.
frankly i wouldn�t rule out custom. Should come in about 2X the cost of a lyman GPR . But in the long run you will be better for it . IE much better barrel with lots of options not to mention IMO better locks and triggers . Plus your not stuck with a choice of , generic plains rifle vs. generic plains rifle .

When it comes to powder .Real BP imo is the only way to go . Can you buy it off the shelf , for the most part no , I not like you once could . But if you do some searching you will find that you can order it and have it shipped to you OR if you look at the Goex distribution list , your more then like to find a distributor near you. Give them a call most times they will either link up with you or give you a contact number of someone they supply , be that a shooting group, club or even someone who does fireworks .

Captchee knows what he is talking about. I have seen his work and it is 2nd to none. He can create some beautiful pieces.
A few years ago I had a semi-custom made from a Jim Chambers kit,(Should have picked Captchee to have done the work).
Was not as costly as a full blown custom, yet is beautiful and shoots awesome.
.62 cal. rifled Thumper.

I'll 3rd the Lyman Great Plains rifle, or even one of the less expensive Lyman Trade Rifles.

The GPR can be bought assembled or in kit form. Left or right handed, flint or percussion, round ball twist (1 in 60 or 66) or a conical/sabot friendly faster twist rate.

The trade rifle is a 1 in 48 deal only - mine does phenomenal with balls, will shoot heavy conicals and sabots acceptably.
I think it can be had in percussion or flint.

I hate Pyrodex.

I would also recomend the used T/C route. They can usually be had for a reasonable price. My local gun shop has about a dozen nice Hawken, Renegade & New Englanders for sale for $200-$300. As when buying any used black powder gun, look it over good or buy from someone that will stand behind it.

Kaiser......

After buying a new, .50 caliber, factory-made flintlock Long Rifle, I ventured into a pair of .50 caliber older CVA percussion cap Hawkens... one with a 24-inch barrel I use for deer hunting and one with a 28 inch barrel I use for target shooting.

Both Hawkens are very accurate with a "target load" of 47 grains of Swiss or Goex FFFg and shoot very accurately at either 25 or 50 yards. I limit my hunting range to just 80 yards or less with a round, patched ball.

My hunting load in the short, 6� lb, 24 inch barreled Hawkien is 70 grains of Swiss FFFg which is extremely accurate yielding triangle-shaped, interlocking holes, 3-shot groups of inter-locking patched, round ball holes shot off the bench-rest.

To get some real black powder, you might try some of the local muzzle loaders clubs in your area. Often, these clubs will buy several pounds of real black powder which their club members purchase and most of these clubs will also sell the powder to other local ML shooters at or close to club member's prices.

I received a "flyer" from the NMLRA at Friendship last week offering Swiss Black Powder at $25.50 per pound and Goex Black Powder at $15.50 per pound to give you some idea of what the current costs are.

Good luck in your quest... and check with some local ML club members about buying a used (but still good) side-lock Hawken. I bought each of my Hawkens at between $100 and $150 per rifle... and they were in very good condition.


Strength & Honor...

Ron T.

I won a Traditions Pa. Pellet Flintlock earlier this year. There's thread about it in this forum somewhere. So far, I've had no problems with it. I've been using Pyrodex RS in the barrel and 4F in the pan. 240 SWC's and a sabot since I had the SWC's on hand for the 44 mag.

Local shop had Pyrodex, 777, and real BP in stock. I was hoping to use it in our late season but last Thursday's shoulder surgery is keeping me out of the woods.

Dale

Kaiser,

Glad to hear that another wants to go traditional!!

You can have black powder delivered to you UPS from a number of places.
A new gun can be had from either Lyman or Pedersoli.

Or you can build your own from a "parts set" (NOT a kit). That's what I did. Took me about 180 hours and was a hoot to build. Much harder than the CVA Mountain rifle kit I did way back in the 70's.
Look on the traditonal muzzleloading forum and you will find answers to all your questions. Good folks there and lots of topics.

PS: There is no 12 step program for black powder. You stay addicted.


Qtip
Soli Deo Gloria!

Jim Chambers kits are not kits in the traditional since. They are more a collection of parts that are period correct for a specific rifle. Dovetails still have to be cut in the barrel, stock is only semi inletted and has to be fully inletted. Ramrod hole has to be drilled and so forth. They are not plug and play like a cva kit.

"swrshooter" often posts some very clean used T/C cap lock ML rifles in the classifieds. He is a good source for what ever you might need. He's a great guy to buy a used ML from.

Doc

Thanks, Gents. You've all given me some thoughts to ruminate on and look into.

Kaiser Norton

Check out the Pedersolis. They make really nice Hawken replicas, as well as the English style Mortimers in various calibers and ignition types. I had a .54 flint Mortimer for a while, and after I got the touchhole configured correctly (thanks Ross Seyfried), it shot great. The Mortimers also have nice features like captive barrel wedges and browned barrels. they are a little pricey, but worth it, I think. they also have a track record in international BP competition. Try Taylor's in Winchester, VA or Flintlocks Etc.