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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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[/Quote/]
Fair warning: I got lambasted for implying that long distance hunting was not hunting at all. I suspect if you go any further you shall feel the wrath of the 500 yard crowd as well. Jeff Cooper has a famous saying that we should apologize for long shots not brag about them. [/Quote/]
You took a shot at long range hunting in general,in the Case of Clair Reese he took a shot that he did not feel comfortable with and range has nothing to do with it.If the range was 50 yards and under the conditions he was not comfortable then he should not take that shot either
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Yes, I did.
And I'm not apologizing for it or backing down. Not one damned bit.
But this thread is for people to get feedback from the gunwriters about the actions and articles of Clair Rees. Not to ascertain my opinion on people who take 900 yard shots at elk out of 30 pound rifles shot off a bench. That ground has been tilled already. No one who saw that thread had any doubt as to my opinion. Or yours.
Will
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Campfire Kahuna
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toltegriz--
No, I figured out long ago that many hunting/shooting magazines are filled with what some people call "adverwhorials," articles about stuff that is also advertised in the same magazine.
More than a decade ago I was told to mention "X" brand optics in an optics column I was writing for another magazine, and especially mention them every time I mentioned Y and Z optics, their primary competitors. I didn't want to burn all my bridges (it is a really small business) so I simply demanded a raise for far more money than they would ever pay, and so got "let go."
I also discovered a couple of years ago that not only are such articles done to please advertisers, but some magazines actually have clauses in their advertising contracts, saying the magazine will publish a feature article on the product.
That is different, however, from the kind of "sell you something" articles that Wolfe runs. These are the pieces on new products, which many readers demand. (We constantly get complaints about pieces such as mine on the old drilling a year or so ago, or the ones that Ross Seyfried did on various old guns. The authors of such letters say they buy gun magazines to find out what is new and improved, period. They don't want to hear about "obsolete" stuff.)
So we run articles about new products. However, we do not make promises to advertisers, either contractual or implied, about trading feature articles for advertising.
The attitude at Wolfe is that we will try to put together magazines that appeal to as many readers as possible, while really wringing out products to see if they work as advertised.
We have lost some advertisers over the years because we would not play the same trade-game as some other magazines. On the other hand, we keep gaining readers--and readers who are serious about shooting and hunting. So many other companies have started advertising with us, because our ads reach serious shooters.
I just learned the other day from the head of the Wolfe advertising department that he has actually cancelled ads because the products weren't all they were supposed to be, or the manufacturer just couldn't supply them. I haven't heard that about any other magazines in the business.
What he will do, sometimes, when an advertiser is really interested in having one of the Wolfe staff writers write about the product, is contact all the writers to see if any of us are interested in trying it out. If we are, then we get a chance to really test it and see if it works. If it does, then we will try to let the readers know the results. But there are no guarantees involved, and we are free to mention how the product could be improved as well.
MD
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Well said, well done, and completely understandable! Hope it continues as such for all of us!
As for paragraph two, you are a crafty, sneaky dude, aren't you?
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Campfire Ranger
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I read or rather skimmed CR's article too. As the lawyers are want to say, "the thing speaks for itself".
In regard to hunting ethics, several years ago I was hunting elk in Idaho with an outfitter/guide Atcheson's hooked me up with. My partner was writer Bill Bynum from Peterson's Hunting. The first morning we still hunted up to a fern patch in which stood a nice bull; the range was about 150-175 yards and in the dim amber morning light the tawny bull and ferns blended to indiscernable lines. The outfitter nearly jumped up and down in a very aggitated manner urging me to shoot as I had drawn first shot and was looking quickly for a rest. I was pressured and felt uncomfortable with the shot - there was no standing or sitting natural rest - it was off hand or nothing. I'm somehwat sorry to say I capitulated and shot and thankfully killed the bull where he stood but I was upset when I heard him telling the writer some time later that his "high kill percentage" was what he used in his brochures and was proud of. Apparently, it didn't matter too much what kind of shot was presented and he figured that the more shooting he got for his clients the more critters would end up on the ground.
Bill late wrote the story for HUNTING which was why he was there but of course only mentioned that I had shown "great marksmanship" - I could have as easily missed or wounded the bull - not that we had a yammering guide behind us concerned about his kill rate.
It was a beautiful bull and great eating but the circumstances of the shot diminished the enjoyment of the hunt.
Last edited by goodnews; 05/07/06.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Very well stated.I totaly agree I had a shot year before last Of 100 yards or less and was so winded that I could not take the shot .Under less stressful conditions the shot would have been simple.The bull was a very nice 6 X 6 and would have been my best Elk by a long margin. Conditions more than range are the controlling factors in my opion.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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varmintsinc,
I would use the article for teaching youngsters. I think they could learn a lot if you gave it to them and asked them to compile the "lessons learned" from Clair Rees' hunt and what decision points should have led to different decisions. In fact, the way Mr. Rees wrote the article lends itself well to being a case study. I read the article earlier today, and there were several "lessons learned" that jumped out: sight in the rifle yourself before hunting, don't take a shot at a distance longer than you have practiced with that gun, get a good rest (the longer the shot, the better rest needed), don't let somebody pressure you into taking a shot you're not comfortable with, and camoflage doesn't do you any good if it doesn't fit in with your surroundings (he would have been better off with plain clothes in colors similar to the surroundings).
I think that type of honest article is useful to novice hunters because everybody is going to make mistakes, and we need to be able to identify potential mistakes before they happen and make the right decisions, and we need to be able to learn from our own mistakes, when we make them, and the mistakes of others. Granted, I already knew those things from Rees' article (some of them are common sense and shouldn't have to be "taught"), but not everybody has much experience or knows about, or even has access to, this board to learn from the collective experience here. I'm quite sure from reading his articles that Mr. Rees doesn't have as much hunting experience as several on this board do, but a lot of his readers are going to have a lot less experience than Mr. Rees does.
My main criticism of the article would be that the audiences for the article were way too different: it's very rare for a novice who could learn something from the mistakes Clair made to be in the market for an expensive custom rifle, and the more experienced hunters who might be in the market for a Serengeti rifle are going to look in disdain upon the mistakes Rees made (and that's the level of experience where most on this board are).
Mule Deer does well to remind us (and I forget sometimes) that a profitable hunting magazine (i.e., one that will stay in business to feed our hunger for a good magazine) has to appeal to a very broad range of experience and knowledge levels. It doesn't hurt anything for there to be some articles discussing mistakes made, as long as those articles convey the right messages.
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toltegriz--
No, I figured out long ago that many hunting/shooting magazines are filled with what some people call "adverwhorials," articles about stuff that is also advertised in the same magazine.
More than a decade ago I was told to mention "X" brand optics in an optics column I was writing for another magazine, and especially mention them every time I mentioned Y and Z optics, their primary competitors. I didn't want to burn all my bridges (it is a really small business) so I simply demanded a raise for far more money than they would ever pay, and so got "let go."
I also discovered a couple of years ago that not only are such articles done to please advertisers, but some magazines actually have clauses in their advertising contracts, saying the magazine will publish a feature article on the product.
That is different, however, from the kind of "sell you something" articles that Wolfe runs. These are the pieces on new products, which many readers demand. (We constantly get complaints about pieces such as mine on the old drilling a year or so ago, or the ones that Ross Seyfried did on various old guns. The authors of such letters say they buy gun magazines to find out what is new and improved, period. They don't want to hear about "obsolete" stuff.)
So we run articles about new products. However, we do not make promises to advertisers, either contractual or implied, about trading feature articles for advertising.
The attitude at Wolfe is that we will try to put together magazines that appeal to as many readers as possible, while really wringing out products to see if they work as advertised.
We have lost some advertisers over the years because we would not play the same trade-game as some other magazines. On the other hand, we keep gaining readers--and readers who are serious about shooting and hunting. So many other companies have started advertising with us, because our ads reach serious shooters.
I just learned the other day from the head of the Wolfe advertising department that he has actually cancelled ads because the products weren't all they were supposed to be, or the manufacturer just couldn't supply them. I haven't heard that about any other magazines in the business.
What he will do, sometimes, when an advertiser is really interested in having one of the Wolfe staff writers write about the product, is contact all the writers to see if any of us are interested in trying it out. If we are, then we get a chance to really test it and see if it works. If it does, then we will try to let the readers know the results. But there are no guarantees involved, and we are free to mention how the product could be improved as well.
MD ----------------------- That's why I maintain my Wolfe subscriptions.
"There are no dangerous weapons. There are only dangerous men." - Robert Heinlein
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John
I used to subscribe to all three Wolf publishing magazines until i noticed a change in content. The straw that broke the camel's back was an article by Clair about the new BLR, the one he had was chambered in .223 rem or some other varmint cartridge and he did not even test the rifle! What a bunch of bull [bleep]! especially when they are chambering them for all the short mags as well as classics like the .358 win, man what a lost opportunity. Jeff Quinn's article at gunblast.com was about 1,000 times more useful and interesting than this blatant advertising article
Another thing that stuck in my head was Clair's article on his brown bear hunt. At one point in his story he tells how snow laden branches continually dumped snow down the neck of his jacket. Now i dont know about other hunters, but if i was going to hunt in Alaska i wouldnt be caught dead without a gore-tex shell with attached HOOD. My first thought was this guy aint no hunter and obviously this is so. Davie boy better wake up and cut this crap out or else there will be no more subscribers, entry level material is one thing but there is no excuse for this drivel.
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Campfire Kahuna Emeritus & Campfire Outfitter
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Having been a successful businessman for a significant period of my life, I can surely appreciate what John is saying. Yeah, every magazine needs a professional "commercial guy." And I can surely see how Clair Rees fills the bill perfectly. This leaves the rest of the Editor's writing stable, true gunny guys, free to concentrate on writing the type of articles that involve thinking and true research. And that is why Wolfe Publications' magazines are so rich with insight. In re-reading the article, it's amazing how many products Clair mentions. That is truly a testament to Clair's skill at what he does. I have been in the field with Clair a couple of times and watched him shoot prairie dogs. This includes the time when he was shoving a fully-loaded varmint rifle out the window of a Suburban (it was either a Winchester or a Browning) and the rifle went alllll theeee waaaay out the window......and crashed on a pile of rocks. This was less than impressive and has been the source of many campfire giggles amongst gun writers. In case you are wondering, the rifle and scope looked like it had been worked over by a sledge-hammer and the unit was totally trashed. Clair is, let's say, less talented than the average Joe when it comes to marksmanship. Having said that, let's just accept his story; that he took a mannlicher-stocked, short-barreled 6.5X55 and he "held Kentucky elevation" with an unfamiliar reticle....and that he whacked an antelope buck at 452 yards in a ten mph wind. OK. I believe that Clair should have entitled the article, "The Unluckiest Antelope In The World." <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> Steve
"God Loves Each Of Us As If There Were Only One Of Us"
Saint Augustine of Hippo - AD 397
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Yep, if you got to have it, and no doubt you do these days, helps to keep the pressure of MD and the other loonies.
Also CR might be a heck of a nice guy, and definitely sounds like a "fun" guy for camp. Boy, I hope that thing was not "with one in the oven" when he did the window thing!
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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I saw Mr. Reese at the shot show and he looked to be in poor health and much older than I thought.From the looks of his physical condition he is probably doing his best.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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To me, Mr. Reese's articles have always struck me as truthful, because even when he could have put himself in a better light, he has chosen to be "real". The guy seems to utterly lack an ego, and that is refreshing after reading many of the contributors to other gun and hunting mags crow about their accomplishments. I also think that if the wind is blowing too hard to do a valid equipment test, it was also blowing too hard to do the article on that test.....<img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Cast
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Just re-read some of this stuff, and some of the stuff you guys have mentioned got me to thinking this: Wolfe may very well have the corner on the "advertisement articles" or adverwhorials as MD said.
When you stop and think about it, Clair Rees is probably the best in the business at the this, but not on quantity, or the article being presented on same/or across page from the actual advertisement. There is no "in your face" presentation, he seems to be sure to mention "according to the manufacter" when needed. C. Rees may very well be the best at what HE DOES, or at least I can't think of any other mags that would do it better than Wolfe does. Most of the others come off to me as pretty darn "phoney" about it quite often.
Enough tonight, got to head for a turkey campfire!
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Campfire Ranger
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MD If you had gotten the raise, would you have written it the way they wanted it? I really don't want an answer. I just thought you put yourself in an "interesting" position. For the very reasons you give, the Wolfe Publications and one Eastman is about all I am interested in. I still get G&A but mainly for nostalgic reasons as it was EK who personally got me started on it, but it's a pale shadow of what it was. Bringing back "Gunnotes" and turning it over to Craig (and I've said before I like Craig personally) was total disrepect and nearly the last straw. And who are those other hacks? (Rhetorical question-no answer wanted-and I'm not calling Craig a hack (overly prolific, maybe)). But you have to give them credit (?) for running the advertisement right next to the article. I've seen it in the Wolfe publications but not so blatant and usually only with an item of some reasonable value or use. Not so much lately, but a short time back those short product items not attrbuted to any specific writer read like company press releases to the extent I thought they should have been identified as such. However I like what you say about how things are currently handled. If there is such a thing as ethics in the gun magazine field or even if there isn't, I appreciate your efforts and those of the magazines with which you are associated to have some standards. The comments on readers interest in new and improved is interesting, beause there's a lot more new than there is improved, but I understand what you're saying. I really didn't think you hadn't thought about these thing before your referenced conversation, but it sounded like you did so I thought I would call you on it. I'm glad I did as it has resulted in some very interesting information about the Wolfe publications. Anyway, I appreciate what you do and how you do it, but I do disagree with you occasionally, so we know you aren't infallible. (I'm still shaking my head over the Anschutz vs. Model 52 for bolt sporting .22.) <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> T
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Campfire Kahuna
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Believe me, I was in no danger of getting the raise.
At the time there was no editor at PH. Todd Smith had just left to become editor at OUTDOOR LIFE, and the magazine was being run by committee. Editors are often the buffer between publishing (read "advertising") and editorial. Since there was none, the publisher gave me the edict.
Publishers are usually bottom-line guys, and he was not about to concede to my demand. Many publishers like him--not all--believe that writers are necessary evils who only drag revenue down, while the really important guys are good ad salesmen, who increase revenue. The ideal magazine to such publishers would be all ads.
The "Inside Industry News" items in RIFLE and HANDLOADER are indeed press releases on new products. I don't think Wolfe has ever tried to disguise that fact, and hope nobody has been fooled.
As for the Anschutz vs. Winchester question--when you ask an opinion (as the thread did) you'll get some. That is my opinion, but others obviously disagree.
However, what I have noticed about a lot of Winchester enthusiasts over the years, especially rifle guys who believe the 70 and 52 are the beginning and end of everything, is that they have often owned few other rifles. Some of the Model 70 guys I know who believe it the best rifle ever made have not owned ANY other rifles. They are just parroting what other people have said and written. I trust you are not one of those, and have actually owned an Anschutz. Then I would be happy to listent to your opinion about why I am wrong!
By the way, I like Winchesters, and own about 15, both rifles and shotguns, almost all pre-'64.
MD
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MD I'm just giving you a hard time on the Anschutz deal, although I don't understand how a person of your apparent intelligence could take that position. But seriously, I do have rifles besides Winchester, but they, particularly the pre-'64s, are what I'm most comfortable with. Polly want a cracker? I'd have to say I've tried not to live a sheltered life, riflewise. I never believed or implied that you have a thing against Winchester, but only 15? PH is just a joke and only gets worse. It's a 5 minute read at most. On the press releases, when the release touts a certain benefit, without some verification by the magazine, I think the release should be identified as such. Do they pay for the placement? But it's not my magazine and I'm not holding you responsible. It's just my unsolicited opinion. I didn't mean to get this far into the financial aspects of gun magazine publishing, but it is interesting and I appreciate your taking the time to talk about it. Even if I don't agree with everything, I've said before, I like your work and I'd probably like your dog. T <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />
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There's a vast difference between 'hunting' and 'shooting'. We have a lot of shooters today but very few hunters.
I had one customer to tell me, "If I saw a monster buck standing 'side the road I'd shoot 'im, cut 'is horns off and leave 'im laying there." That took all the pleasure out of building his rifle for me and he left not knowing I'd lost all respect for him as a 'hunter'.
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You know Mickey i had the same thing happen to me while giulding for moose.The sport shot way to high and the moose took off.I'm sure he hit it in the dead spot between the hump and spine.After the second day i said to the guy If we find the moose the meat will probally be spoiled.His responce was I DON'T GIVE A CHITT ABOUT THE MEAT I JUST WANT HORNS.Well let me tell you i lost any get-up and go after that.Besides the silly bugger walked out on me not once but twice while looking for the moose.The fellow is a campfire member if matters.After a week or so i found the rotting moose thanks to the ravens i now have a 52 inch rack that is darn near perfect.Only problem is the crappy way i had to obtain it.I call those guy's city boys with guns.
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I've still never understood how CR ever ended up as a gunwriter or continues to get published, good guy he may be...
As a writer, then editor and I recall publisher of Word Perfect Magazine he made a habit of writing about his hobby and keeping a dozen articles in circulation until he started getting published. I interviewed him once and he was making an effort to get his shooting articles published. I'd guess that many of us could do the same thing if we had the discipline to write and submit in the same volume has. Clair is at least a human being and writes like a lot of folks from Utah think and speak. You are all welcome to try your hand at writing <img src="/ubbthreads/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" />
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