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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I don't think anybody would say competing is the same as a gunfight.
But I would say competition is the best thing a guy can do to become a better shooter. Or a better anything for that matter.
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Apr 2005
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Apr 2005
Posts: 30,967 Likes: 5 |
I don't think anybody would say competing is the same as a gunfight.
But I would say competition is the best thing a guy can do to become a better shooter. Or a better anything for that matter.
Travis Deflave is f'ing genius, he consistently hits the nail on the head.
I got banned on another web site for a debate that happened on this site. That's a first
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Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 918
Campfire Regular
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Campfire Regular
Joined: Jun 2003
Posts: 918 |
An accurate hail storm is the best. Competition along with training is your friend.
No fear, no doubt, all in, balls out.
"America"
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
I don't think anybody would say competing is the same as a gunfight.
But I would say competition is the best thing a guy can do to become a better shooter. Or a better anything for that matter.
Travis Deflave is f'ing genius, he consistently hits the nail on the head. I'm also a functioning alcoholic. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949 |
...believe when I tell you gunfighting is a whole nother animal.
Bob
Well my personal experiences have differed a bit and take it for what it is worth. I can honestly say I felt more pressure standing in a box waiting for a beep when money was on the line than when I have been behind the sights in a fight. For me fights went from relatively calm to over with in a few seconds. There was no adrenaline dump, I reacted as I had trained and my thoughts were focused on what needed to be done (I could hear an old instructor yelling "get off the line and on your sights"). There were no visions of family or anything else clouding my mind. In my first I completed a draw from deep concealment (inside the waist with a snap), got my safety off (sw 5906), was creating distance (started at arms length) and got enough good hits fast enough (4 rounds of 115+p+ center mass) the BG never even got his pistol up all the way and I was conscious he was already collapsing. I guess it fell in the hailstorm of accuracy department. As a side note I am not a big fan of instructors who preach how xyz techniques will fail under stress or that fine motor skills will perish just because your pulse reaches a certain level. If you train hard enough and engrain your proficiency to the bone you will respond when needed.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1
Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 24,670 Likes: 1 |
I don't think anybody would say competing is the same as a gunfight.
But I would say competition is the best thing a guy can do to become a better shooter. Or a better anything for that matter.
Travis I find myself in agreement with Travis.
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Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: May 2007
Posts: 14,653 |
Amen to that. I'm so freaking sick and tired of hearing people say that I shouldn't use the slide release lever because I won't be able to in a fight. But those same guys expect me to be able to use fine motor skills to release the magazine and insert a new magazine. And those are the same guys who preach about using trigger reset, of all things. Give me a break.
your flippant remarks which you so adeptly sling
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Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Aug 2003
Posts: 39,237 Likes: 37 |
One of the reasons I've seen to not use the slide release lever but to slingshot the slide manually was from Clint Smith.
I'm paraphrasing here (been a long time since I read/heard it) but he said something to the effect "Not every pistol will have a release lever in the same position, working the slide manually with the other hand reloads every pistol available, regardless of mfg."
I don't know - I'm not a tactically low speed guy but it does make sense at first blush. I do question tho that if you're using a battlefield pick up pistol so to speak, what are the odds you've also picked up spare mags. If you had time to get spare mags, I'd think you had time to familiarize yourself with the pistol.
Dunno - just thinking out loud.
Me
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Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
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I would argue a controlled trigger press is about as fine a motor skill as required yet nobody complains we should not do that under stress. I firmly believe in actually looking at a method, determining the positives and the potential for negatives rather than making a blanket application for everything. If it works for you use it. I recently worked with some guys who could not reach the controls on their sigs, we came up with some different ways of running the gun that were not totally traditional but once ingrained in the skill set they will be equally effective.
Just like the doctrine for unloading a semi auto. Almost every program I have been in says to drop the magazine first and then lock the slide back to unload. It also seems these same programs will also teach than on an unknown failure a shooter should lock the slide back first then strip the magazine out because the pressure of the magazine against the slide could be part of the problem. I believe in teaching one method that involves locking the slide/bolt back then dropping the magazine whether your clearing a malfunction or conducting an administrative unloading.
Another instructor lit into me for it being unsafe but can someone explain it to me? Slide is locked back, chamber is empty and magazine is removed from the firearm, still sounds like a safe gun to me.
It seems we have so many sacred cows out there in defensive firearms training and it is my goal to get rid of all of them.
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949
Campfire Tracker
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Campfire Tracker
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 4,949 |
And while I am ranting on my soapbox can someone explain how mashing down with your thumb on a slide release is a fine motor skill? Making a fist or squeezing down is about as gross as a motor skill gets when manipulating firearms. And why do they make it a serrated/checkered lever when they could easily make it an internal feature if we were not supposed to use it to drop a slide?
Hunt hard, kill clean, waste nothing and offer no apologies.
"In rifle work, group size is of some interest...but it is well to remember that a rifleman does not shoot groups, he shoots shots." Jeff Cooper
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
...believe when I tell you gunfighting is a whole nother animal.
Bob
Well my personal experiences have differed a bit and take it for what it is worth. I can honestly say I felt more pressure standing in a box waiting for a beep when money was on the line than when I have been behind the sights in a fight. For me fights went from relatively calm to over with in a few seconds. There was no adrenaline dump, I reacted as I had trained and my thoughts were focused on what needed to be done (I could hear an old instructor yelling "get off the line and on your sights"). There were no visions of family or anything else clouding my mind. In my first I completed a draw from deep concealment (inside the waist with a snap), got my safety off (sw 5906), was creating distance (started at arms length) and got enough good hits fast enough (4 rounds of 115+p+ center mass) the BG never even got his pistol up all the way and I was conscious he was already collapsing. I guess it fell in the hailstorm of accuracy department. As a side note I am not a big fan of instructors who preach how xyz techniques will fail under stress or that fine motor skills will perish just because your pulse reaches a certain level. If you train hard enough and engrain your proficiency to the bone you will respond when needed. First, glad you made it. Second, I am in complete agreement in regards to the "fine motor skill" BS we always have to hear. Especially with the M-4. "Don't use your thumb to send the bolt forward! Slap it with your hand so you're using gross motor skills!" Yet every student is expected to use their pointer finger on the starboard side mag release. Laughin'... Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
One of the reasons I've seen to not use the slide release lever but to slingshot the slide manually was from Clint Smith.
I'm paraphrasing here (been a long time since I read/heard it) but he said something to the effect "Not every pistol will have a release lever in the same position, working the slide manually with the other hand reloads every pistol available, regardless of mfg."
I don't know - I'm not a tactically low speed guy but it does make sense at first blush. I do question tho that if you're using a battlefield pick up pistol so to speak, what are the odds you've also picked up spare mags. If you had time to get spare mags, I'd think you had time to familiarize yourself with the pistol.
Dunno - just thinking out loud. I don't know Clint Smith but instructors typically like to instruct. Meaning they like to have their way of doing things and teaching it. I do not like when people try and push their technique onto others. They typically end up justifying their technique with nonsense like "well what if you pick up a bad guy's gun and the slide release is 1/4" further to the rear?" Umm... I guess I'll move my thumb a 1/4" to the rear? Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13
Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
Joined: Aug 2007
Posts: 115,424 Likes: 13 |
And while I am ranting on my soapbox can someone explain how mashing down with your thumb on a slide release is a fine motor skill? Making a fist or squeezing down is about as gross as a motor skill gets when manipulating firearms. And why do they make it a serrated/checkered lever when they could easily make it an internal feature if we were not supposed to use it to drop a slide? Exactly. What it comes down to most of the time is a guy should do what he does best. I've seen guys always slingshot, and they are fast. Real fast. I've seen guys thumb the slide release and they're fast. Real fast. I personally slam the [bleep] out of the mag into the mag well because 9 times out of 10 the slide goes home for me. And that schit really annoys instructors. But it's hard to say anything when I've already got three rounds down range and the targets already turned again. "Don't rely on that!" Yeah, sure dude. You can rely on "this." And GFY. Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,267 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,267 Likes: 2 |
I vote hailstorm of accuracy.
I agree with this. I do have 1 question though. How many of you guys have head to head competitions in events like bowling pin shoots or other live fire events where it's you against someone else? You find out real quick, who the top dog is. The way I see it is, you get sloppy and you get dead. Nuff said.. No BSA...if you run in with no bullets or gun into a gunfight and still win then. You have been permenatley separated from the PAC. Lol
Trump Won!
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Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,896
Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
Posts: 10,896 |
Hailstorm always..keeps em in fetal positions and buys time for kill shots.
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,267 Likes: 2
Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,267 Likes: 2 |
Light em up brudda. Lol
Last edited by gunner500; 01/19/14.
Trump Won!
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Joined: Mar 2010
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Campfire Outfitter
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Campfire Outfitter
Joined: Mar 2010
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10-4... I've witnessed whole hillsides lit up and it wasn't because of first accurate shots...
You better be afraid of a ghost!!
"Woody you were baptized in prop wash"..crossfireoops
Woody
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Joined: Sep 2009
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
Joined: Sep 2009
Posts: 46,267 Likes: 2 |
10-4... I've witnessed whole hillsides lit up and it wasn't because of first accurate shots... Yes, but that old single or tandem crew has. Lol
Trump Won!
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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There is a reason they call it Spray and PRAY
If God wanted you to walk and carry things on your back, He would not have invented stirrups and pack saddles
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