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JB, do you have a theory as to why the tactical community has all embraced the mil system??
I think this thread is interesting because I think it high lights there is a big difference between tactical shooting, which if you really delve into the discipline isn't really sniping but rather simply long range shooting. Long range hunting to me is closer to what sniping really is compared to tactical shooting. further I don't want to and refuse to put 10 quick rounds down ANY of my barrels. I would not do this unless I was shooting a ballistically inferior 308. I just don't want to put extra wear on my barrels by heating them up that much. however a 10 round grouping might be a great idea if you are shooting at targets alot in a tactical match and its common to need to shoot 10 rounds at a time. I don't care where my gun shoots after the 3rd shot frankly because after that heat could be effecting my barrel and I don't ever shoot at multiple big game animals at the same time.
back to john's argument about wind brackets. here my problem with mils, it just seems like an odd ball unit of measurement during field conditions, no one has ever showed me an easy to remember in my head way of dealing with the math of it. you guys that love mils if anyone here can convince me and show a simpler way of dealing with mils in my head math wise in field conditions, heck I might even embrace it. I just don't see it. could it be that you guys that are mil users have become that way simply because there is more and BETTER equipment that is mil based for long range shooting??
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Campfire Outfitter
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LOL, that's ironic! There's nothing wrong with advertising, right John?!  Nope. After attending two Icebreaker shoots I decided to try a MIL system. Actually, I decided to have my son try a MIL system that way if I didn't like it, he was stuck with the POS and not me.
After doing so I have decided to convert all my optics to MILS.
You can end this discussion now.
Travis Damn. As I stated in my post I can very simply see MOA in a spotter without a reticle. There are quite a few members here at the Fire that can attest to the fact that I can call pretty good wind (in MOA or MILs) from my Swaro 65mm HD and my Leupy 60mm HD. You might say I am something of a proven entity. Be honest John... you've also developed simple yet highly sophisticated indicators of wind speed in the field. Visa Vi..... "The spotter just blew over, and my hat flew off.... lets call it 30 MPH.".... I had that Swaro out yesterday and couldn't figure out why the eye piece zoom was sticky. Forgot about the tumble it took that day.  ![[Linked Image]](http://i1205.photobucket.com/albums/bb428/GreybullPrecision/Ar-15/DSC00813_zps6c4febc0.jpg) You just ran 7 for 7 on the 600yds steel. 2nd focal plane duplex in a VX6. Good shooters can make most anything work.
John Burns
I have all the sources.
They can't stop the signal.
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Rick,
Just a question, cuz I may be confused here, but is shotgunning doves the same thing as shooting mule deer at 700 yards?
Thanks!
When you've got Natural Talent, it makes no difference what you're shooting or what your target is
Last edited by rcamuglia; 01/24/14. Reason: spelllink
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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That Dogshooter guy couldn't hit his ass...
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Should be able to get a few 7 yard shots in ghillie suits. Don't forget your dope card. Dialing in the wrong ele and windage will result in everyone knowing that you're not authentic snipers, much to your chagrin... You'll actually need to dial UP 6.8 mils from your 100 yard zero for that 7 yard shot. carry on.... Like I said, wouldn't want to dial in the wrong dope... 
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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JB, do you have a theory as to why the tactical community has all embraced the mil system??
I think this thread is interesting because I think it high lights there is a big difference between tactical shooting, which if you really delve into the discipline isn't really sniping but rather simply long range shooting. Long range hunting to me is closer to what sniping really is compared to tactical shooting. further I don't want to and refuse to put 10 quick rounds down ANY of my barrels. I would not do this unless I was shooting a ballistically inferior 308. I just don't want to put extra wear on my barrels by heating them up that much. however a 10 round grouping might be a great idea if you are shooting at targets alot in a tactical match and its common to need to shoot 10 rounds at a time. I don't care where my gun shoots after the 3rd shot frankly because after that heat could be effecting my barrel and I don't ever shoot at multiple big game animals at the same time.
back to john's argument about wind brackets. here my problem with mils, it just seems like an odd ball unit of measurement during field conditions, no one has ever showed me an easy to remember in my head way of dealing with the math of it. you guys that love mils if anyone here can convince me and show a simpler way of dealing with mils in my head math wise in field conditions, heck I might even embrace it. I just don't see it. could it be that you guys that are mil users have become that way simply because there is more and BETTER equipment that is mil based for long range shooting?? Laughin' my ass off... Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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yowza I hate 10 round groups too. the heat's gonna ruin my shcitty factory remington barrel thats rough and fouls up after 10-15 shots anyway: ![[Linked Image]](http://i74.photobucket.com/albums/i258/n8dawg6/image_zpsaf800c24.jpg) thank goodness that's shots 1-10 starting with "bare metal", not shots 120-130 since the last cleaning
Uber Demanding Rifle Aficionado
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That Dogshooter guy couldn't hit his ass...
I just have one question: How many MILs, or MOA, of correction does the spotter call when when you send one down range at 500.... If the shooter forgets to dial the dope from a 100 yd zero? Seems we've had this discussion before.... I believe I played the roll of 'spotter'.... By the way.... you are correct, I've yet to shoot myself in the ass. Is that bad?
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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You read the amount needed off the reticule in your spotter or you look at your drop chart which is written in Mils/MOA..
Last edited by Pete E; 01/24/14.
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I think he's just gouging Tanner.....grin!
Luck....is the residue of design... ![[Linked Image]](http://i423.photobucket.com/albums/pp311/patrickgsinclair/96zvyt.gif)
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The "tactical community" is mostly wannabe snipers who have never worn the uniform or graduated sniper school. Go any range on any weekend and there will be no shortage of them.
Genuine long range target shooters buy the best optics they can afford and don't really worry if it adjust in mils or inches because they know what their rifle, scope and load do.
The biggest dumfest that is going on in America is all the long range wannabes who are buying SFP variable scopes with mil dots or whatever reticle and not understanding that the reticle is only accurate at one magnification setting.
All you have to do is look at Hunter Benchrest shooters who shoot tiny little holes with a mere 6X scope typically fiited with a custom reticle so there is no knob twisting. Then we have those boys who wear the The Eagle, Globe, and Anchor who can wax you at 1000 meters with their 3-12 FFP Schmidt & Benders. If they have a spotter they MAY dial but usually they hold over/off with the mil dot reticle as the increments are always 3.6" regardless of the power setting.
Most hunters who shoot big game at ethical distances don't have a spotter and really have no use for any fancy reticle as "minute of deer" is pretty big.
For shooting Varmints, paper or people at long range special reticles have a place in a top quality scope. Folks who invest 2500-4000 buck in a scope generally will learn how to use it. I own several but don't hunt big game with them.
In any case, stick with fixed or FFP variables, whether they are mils or inches is immaterial as long as you learn them.
Last edited by astralabs; 01/24/14.
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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That Dogshooter guy couldn't hit his ass...
I just have one question: How many MILs, or MOA, of correction does the spotter call when when you send one down range at 500.... If the shooter forgets to dial the dope from a 100 yd zero? Seems we've had this discussion before.... I believe I played the roll of 'spotter'.... By the way.... you are correct, I've yet to shoot myself in the ass. Is that bad? Holy schist that is funny... I think it was actually 650. I think I might have been an inch or 2 low....grin Worst part is that it wasn't my first time doing that, probably won't be the last. Tanner
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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JB: Just a thought, but the whole "using your real name" thing comes off as a little self-serving, coming from a guy who sells the equipment being discussed. Smoke, I have to disagree. By being upfront about who I am and what I do anyone can then put my opinions into context. If I were king everyone would have to post under their own name. Formidilosus
Where do you instruct? Not much info in your signature or profile to evaluate your expertise. I own my own company. All instructors including myself are military school trained snipers, with special operations and/or high level competition experience. We also all hunt. A lot. Formidilosus is obviously advertising. John, I have to disagree with both. First of all, I put everyone's opinions (on this website) into context the same way. By judging the quality of what they have to say, or as some call it "reading sign." Some guys you can tell in one post are just FOS, some take a while to sort out, and a handful of guys obviously know their stuff, no doubt about it. I'd put you and scenarshooter in that last category. The fact that he doesn't post under his own name really has no bearing. A cynic could say, "being up front about who you are" is just a good technique to sell more of what it is you're trying to sell. I'm not saying that, just saying I don't really care who uses their name or not. The fact that you do is just personal opinion or preference. On the second point, it appears to me that Formidolosus was responding to a direct question with a direct answer, and avoided advertising by keeping the name of his company out of it. The only thing ironic about it is that you labeled it as advertising.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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If members had to post under their real name, it would eliminate a lot of the nasty attacks and completely fabricated BS posts.
Anonymity provides cover for some jokers who are the real "wannabes".
Formy used to have a link to his shooting school on his profile, but it's not there now. I'm sure his students know his real name and I can't see any reason that he doesn't use it here.
I don't know about most here, but I would give more credence and weight to information in a post about, let's say reading the wind, to a poster named "David Tubbs" than if he used the name "6mmlover" (unless it's like "Mule Deer" and everyone clearly knows who it really is)
The people wringing their hands over Trump's rhetoric don't know what time it is in America.
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Campfire 'Bwana
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Campfire 'Bwana
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So start your own forum and set your own rules. While you're at it, ban BS posts and any references to 'the tactical comminity" and "wannabe snipers." and anything else you don't like.
Lots of knowledgeable guys who don't engage in personal attacks and BS posts contribute here, and all have their own reasons for not using their names.
A good one is not making it easy for anyone so inclined to burglarize their residences and steal their $5,000 rifles.
Lots of guys on here, including this thread, know who I am. Anyone who needs to.
A wise man is frequently humbled.
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Campfire Sage
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Campfire Sage
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I thought I told everybody this discussion was over?
Travis
Trump being classless,tasteless and clueless as usual. Sorry, trump is a no tax payin pile of shiit. My young wife decided to play the field and had moved several dudes into my house
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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All you have to do is look at Hunter Benchrest shooters who shoot tiny little holes with a mere 6X scope typically fitted with a custom reticle so there is no knob twisting. Of course anyone that knew anything about Hunter Benchrest would know this is a bunch of horseshit.....
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Campfire Ranger
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Campfire Ranger
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Horseshit is what larry root lives on.
I replace valve cover gaskets every 50K, if they don't need them sooner...
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Campfire Tracker
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All you have to do is look at Hunter Benchrest shooters who shoot tiny little holes with a mere 6X scope typically fitted with a custom reticle so there is no knob twisting. Of course anyone that knew anything about Hunter Benchrest would know this is a bunch of horseshit..... Alan has spoken...
Holy schist that is funny... I think it was actually 650. I think I might have been an inch or 2 low....grin
Worst part is that it wasn't my first time doing that, probably won't be the last.
Tanner
I did that last week at 1200+.... the miss, as most of mine are, was measured out and corrected using the two actual most popular Long Range Subtentions: WTFs and LOLs I believe the total correction was +4 WTFs.... and about two revolutions of LOL.... most of which was dialed by the spotter...
You better pray to the God of Skinny Punks that this wind doesn't pick up......
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